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***Official A.I.: ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE Discussion Thread - Page 11

post #301 of 434
Yes, Kubrick conceptualized the ending. But think of the ending of 2001: A Space Odyssey and then think of how Kubrick might have approached the ending of A.I. And remember, Speilberg rewrote the screenplay so who knows what Kubrick's ideas were... I can see him on the phone saying "No, no Steven, you've got it all wrong. When can you be here."

Its depressing that I won't be going to see another Kubrick film.
post #302 of 434
count me in the "what the heck was that all about?" camp. this movie just didn't do it for me. it wasn't terrible, but it was barely entertaining.

if i wanted to see pinocchio i would have seen pinocchio.
post #303 of 434
Quote:
It's also interesting to note how the standard-issue John Williams score occasionally mimics the use of Khatchaturian's concert music in 2001. If that is an example of a direct reference to the great filmmaker, then Spielberg is not above some self-referencing with those willowy, wispy aliens in the final reel (where might we have seen something like them before?).


The music was intended, watch the extras. Kubrick wanted Khatchaturian music in the movie somewhere and Williams made it happen. I thought it fit well. And, as stated above, they aren't aliens.
post #304 of 434
Jack, by contending that those beings at the end were aliens, I think you still miss the point of the film, and from whose point of view the film is told from. This is one of the keys to really delve into the many layers of this film. By clinging on to the notion that the future mechas were aliens, you undermine the resonance of the film's fable-like tale.
post #305 of 434
AI was a great film that needed approx 30min cut out, and to only end once,

The movie ended 3 times, each ending being progressively worse.

And Spielburg says it was all Kubrick, though the multiple endings seem to be a trademark of his films of late. I personally would have rathered Minority Report to end with Tom Cruise in jail.

Of course, I blame Kubrick for AI
post #306 of 434
Mr. Briggs,

I think you have excellent taste. I would encourage you to keep viewing A.I. and allowing yourself to let the experience wash over you.

I feel it has some qualities similar to your well-known favorite film, 2001. To me, it's a personal odyessy of sorts, but of a different beast. On the surface, it looks quite glib, but once the movie settles, there are things you will pay more attention to in the next viewing, and dare I say, tolerate the saccharine Spielberg obviously put in.


I won't debate when the movie should have ended, with the others. If one feels that strongly, then simply hit the "stop" button on your remote at wherever you feel appropriate.
post #307 of 434
Sorry, Jeff, A.I. has one ending. The proper one, of course. Spielberg is *lucky* he had Kubrick's shadow watching over him - look how lousy Minority Report is in comparison to A.I...

Still, nobody has come close to making a real science fiction film since 2001: A Space Odyssey in 1968. It's been 35 years and we're still waiting for someone to try and top it.
post #308 of 434
Oh, and Peter has provoked such a non-argument from me! () And, Jon (and Tino), I do plan on looking at this thing again. (Pretty soon, in fact.)

Pat, and all else, I will look more attentively for the markers indicating the willowy beings are the robots of 2,000 years further on.

I'm on the road to grudging acceptance of this movie. Progress.
post #309 of 434
I have noticed complaints about the voiceovers, but I am unsure as to how you could convey the idea that this is a story being told about humanity by the future mechas to their kind (a mecha fairy tale of sorts) without having an additional scene of the Specialist telling the story to some form of mecha children (and that would have been awful).
Assuming you agree with this interpretation...
post #310 of 434
I also question the validity of the movie in general. When it takes twenty years to finish the script for a movie, something is very wrong.

A.I. actually reminds me of the movie "Bicentennial Man". If you've ever read the short story and the book, you know there was much better character development in the book than there ever was in the movie. Granted the movie followed a moderately different plot line than the one found in the book, the movie still felt as if there was something seriously missing. And that's how I feel about A.I. It has some nice scenery and effects, but it feels as if something critical is missing in the storyline.
post #311 of 434
Jack, if you would like me to point out some of the precursory hints I found as to the origin of the mechas at the end, I'd be glad to do so. But I won't just blurt them out in case you're like me and you like to dig for yourself.
post #312 of 434
Quote:
Paging Rich Malloy!
Oh c'mon! I've already addressed every wrongheaded parroting of the conventional wisdom that I see repeated by some here again, and don't see any need to rehash all that. After all, there's a search function.

But you just hafta drag me back in, dontcha?

I confess, I'm a bit surprised that Jack hasn't yet grasped the identify of the creatures at the end of the film (ahem... not to mention the narrator of the film!). If anything, I think the clues sprinkled throughout the movie are a tad too obvious, a bit too ham-handed, and we've discussed them in detail elsewhere. Suffice to say that we are not seeing those creatures for the first time in the finale; their very image has been telegraphed throughout the film (and a tad too obviously, if you ask me). Their imminent existence had been directly discussed and noted as the deepest reason for mankind's hatred of mecha-kind.

As for the so-called "sickly sweet" music of the finale, consider it a juxtaposition. As in, "the human race is extinct" (tra-la-la), "this fucked-up semi-boy has no future" (dee-doo-dah), "his mother can be sorta simulated, albeit briefly, and clad in sexy clothes mirroring his deepest desires" (dap-de-doo-wop... yeah!), "the frustrated oedipal impulse is finally satisfied, but immediately thereafter they both must die in some weird parody of the classic double-suicide motif" (blar-bloom-triumphant finale!).

Oh what the hell... I'll just cut and paste the rest (if you've read it all before, scroll on past the next post).
post #313 of 434
I think some are misreading the tone of the narrator [and the music] as the ostensible or intended tone of the ending. A closer look - something few are willing to afford a Speilberg film - reveals a much more complex and ultimately unnerving conclusion. We are, after all, talking about a scene not unlike a double-suicide. And one that includes some startlingly erotic moments between mother and son. This is an ending that takes all the dark mysteries of that relationship and ultimately sends the two principals sailing off into oblivion: artifacts of an extinct race and mythological forebears of humankind's mecha legacy.

Only the faery-tale tone of the narrator suggests the simpler reading, and this is one of the basic dialectics of the film: the tension between the scientific and mytho-poetic ways of knowing the world and comprehending our existence within it. This is one of the primary themes of the film and the reason why there is so much faery tale imagery grafted into an ostensibly sci-fi oriented film. It is precisely the confluence of these two inherently human ways of comprehending the mysteries of existence that the entire film is built upon.

Let's back up for a moment and consider whether the other suggested ending (the "false ending" in narrative terms) would work as well. I'm of the opinion it would not.

I would easily concede that David's yearning, his overwhelming desire for the most basic of human needs, is given its most spectacular cinematic rendering in the underwater scene: a mecha, imbued with the most potent of human needs and emotions, shall spend an eternity praying in vain at the alter of the Blue Fairy.

But this wasn't Kubrick's intended ending, and I doubt it's one that would sit well with Spielberg either. And with good reason, I think. While it's an extraordinary visual metaphor for human longing, left unresolved it's merely another nihilistic trope, neither illuminating nor complex. It's a too easy gloss of the human condition. Fortunately, the film goes well beyond the dubious and sophomoric 'depth' of some dark, portentous parable. Kubrick/Spielberg take the narrative several steps further into territory that defies the simplicity of this false ending, but without undermining this extraordinary metaphor of eternal yearning.

Just consider what we would miss without the ending : (1) the human race is extinct; (2) man's creations have outlived and out-evolved us; (3) man's creations are fascinated by their creators and wish to understand us; (4) David's experience with us - something all Mechas can share through him - makes him an extraordinarily significant relic in their eyes, perhaps even a holy relic, perhaps the most holy connection with their creators the Mechas possess; (5) David evolves into something more human, though our notion of what is human has hopefully by now been expanded far beyond the simplistic definition of "a being housed in an organic vessel". David sleeps, perchance to dream (at least in the comforting words of the narrator), but we understand that he has reached the end of his existence. He "dies" after consumating his love with a being who's not really his mother, not even the same physical entity as his "mother", and perhaps more a symbol, the mother of all mechas, the ocean womb, all in a room that doesn't really exist except in David's memory, in a scene that culminates in the deaths of both principals and their passing into the mythology of a new race of beings.

Let's not forget: David is "born" on the threshhold of a new world, one where orga offspring and mecha offspring compete for the evolutionary legacy - it is the sibling rivalry writ large. Writ on an evolutionary scale. And then told as mythology. By whom? Surely by now you know the identity of the narrator!

A.I. is ultimately a film about the evolution of one species and the extinction of another. But had it ended with David Swinton trapped under the sea in a disabled craft before the alter of the Blue Fairy, it would be like leaving David Bowman sitting in space on a disabled craft before the monolith at the end of 2001. Had Kubrick ended 2001 at this analogous point, what would we have? Man overcomes his creation, his tools (HAL), only to have the door to 'beyond infinity' closed in his face. Bleak? Yeah. Dark? I guess. Complex? Not quite. That ending would have earned Pauline Kael's otherwise inapt criticism: "copout".

Instead, we discover a race - our progeny, our evolutionary legacy - and we discover that they are fascinated by their organic forbears, just as we are fascinated by our own evolutionary history. Fascinated enough to dig up a long-lost relic of a long-ago time when creator and progeny walked the earth together. Fascinated enough to craft mytho-poetic origins tales, so-called "legitimating narratives" in the language of Joseph Campbell.

And, so, we discover that they too search for artifacts to explain their existence; they too need fables to ease the anxiety of the ultimate question of being: from whence did I come and why this inescapable yearning?

It is a question that confronts us all as beings capable of reflecting on our own existences, and its great mystery inevitably reduces us to mere children. Armond White writes: "There’s been nothing in modern movies more grownup or sensitive than David’s fascination with his sexy young mother. It’s as if Spielberg took that key image from Bergman’s Persona (of the small boy reaching up to the huge opaque image of Woman) and interpreted it from the inside out. Freud is both acknowledged and crushed by Spielberg’s awe at that first relationship, the most powerful and baffling in everyone’s life."

From the particular (David born of Monica) to the general (Mecha born of Orga): David finally does command his mother's love, if only as metaphor and if only in death. And in that transformative act lies the connection between man and his legacy, between orga and mecha, transformed into an allegorical narrative, a faery tale, a sacred text: the Genesis of a New Race.

[Dissolve to the Ocean Mother.]
post #314 of 434
A pleasure to read as always, Rich.

I am saving it to e-mail to a few friends, when I could not adequately explain it myself. They gave the stock ending as well.

And Jeff K: who says Minority Report didn't end with Cruise in jail? There is certainly evidence there to support that. Spielberg left that one quite ambiguous

Take care,
Chuck
post #315 of 434
I personally would have rathered Minority Report to end with Tom Cruise in jail.


Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
It did.
post #316 of 434
(I'm of the opinion that Spielberg covered his muffins with the M.R. ending to avoid the "a.i." backlash: that is, the happy ending for those so inclined to want one and the "Brazil-ending" for those otherwise inclined.)
post #317 of 434

Fascinating thread.

I wasn't crazy about AI when I first saw it, but it had a resonance that I've never fully been able to shake. I'm one of the few that like the film's final coda. In fact, thinking about the film as three acts, it's the second act that, to me, smells foul and feels forced. I could have done with much more of act one, seeing more details of David's 'integration' into his organic family, followed by an act two that didn't feel like a completely different film, and then a less abrupt merge into the third act.

Just a few thoughts.
post #318 of 434
I now feel as if I've been watching this film unintelligently. In my defense, though, I will say that upon the last three screenings, I had an SPL meter sitting near my right hand and I was using the little sucker.

Distraction.

Rich, though, piques me interest anew. Next time I will be watching the thing without a view to mucking around with the equipment.
post #319 of 434
Quote:
In fact, thinking about the film as three acts, it's the second act that, to me, smells foul and feels forced.
FWIW, I didn't much care for the "Flesh Fair" portion (2nd Act), which felt much too contrived what with the cliche'd patrons resembling the all-too-easy targets of the slack-jawed yokel & family out for a monster truck rally mixed with a touch of mullet-headed heavy-metal festival revivalism. Just so much witless shorthand for the provincialist "mob rules" mentality, not to mention a strong whiff of classism that seems way out-of-place in a film bearing these themes (surely, it wasn't just the rabble who hated the mechas, and their cruelty probably extended way beyond WWF-inspired "mayhem"). Mostly, it seemed overly sanitized and never truly menacing. A real come-down after the brilliant "bad moon rising" chase through the forest.

But even great movies have flaws (consider the embarrassingly fake ass-kicking Sonny inflicts on his bro-in-law in "The Godfather").
post #320 of 434
Quote:
Next time I will be watching the thing without a view to mucking around with the equipment.
My last viewing also coincided with an equipment upgrade, and I confess that I was very much caught up in that aspect! I love the subtle sound design in this movie, and I have at times taken myself out of the film just to marvel over it. :b
post #321 of 434
The DTS track is really spacious.
post #322 of 434
I love the movie, plain and simple. The ending is fine, just cause its not what some expected doesnt make it bad. Actually it makes it better since it goes against the grain. Speilberg said that now a days hes makin more experimental films, yep their experimental all right.

BTW - The DTS track is real sweet!
post #323 of 434
Rich,

Thanks for the great post, as always. I'm going to save it this time (as somebody else mentioned above), so you don't have to!
post #324 of 434
The A.I. mafia.
post #325 of 434
Consider me a part of this "A.I. Mafia" as well. It's a film that I absolutely fell in love with after the first viewing, and I was so enthralled I went back to see it again the very next day; something I hadn't done with a film in a theater in a long time that didn't involve lightsabers. None of my acquaintances liked the film, and seemingly took joy in bashing it. But, most importantly, I loved the film and that's what mattered most. Definitely my favorite film of 2001, and probably in my top 10 favorites of all time.

And though it's been said many times already, that was an absolutely wonderful post, Rich, and is one of the better critiques of "A.I." that I think I've ever read.
post #326 of 434
Quote:
Definitely my favorite film of 2001, and probably in my top 10 favorites of all time.
Same here!
post #327 of 434
Quote:
FWIW, I didn't much care for the "Flesh Fair" portion (2nd Act), which felt much too contrived what with the cliche'd patrons resembling the all-too-easy targets of the slack-jawed yokel & family out for a monster truck rally mixed with a touch of mullet-headed heavy-metal festival revivalism. Just so much witless shorthand for the provincialist "mob rules" mentality, not to mention a strong whiff of classism that seems way out-of-place in a film bearing these themes (surely, it wasn't just the rabble who hated the mechas, and their cruelty probably extended way beyond WWF-inspired "mayhem"). Mostly, it seemed overly sanitized and never truly menacing. A real come-down after the brilliant "bad moon rising" chase through the forest.


I generally loved the film, but I too felt that this sequence was pretty bad. I really dislike the entire "future-as-a-crazy-rock-n-roll-concert" motif. And the horrendous style of the Ministry's recent albums didn't help matters much, either.

I've only seen the film once (theatrically), so this thead just might convince me to finally watch the DVD.

DJ
post #328 of 434
In addition to the aspects Rich speaks about, there are also the obvious spiritual aspects. (I'll try not to take it too far here Jack for admin purposes)

If we view it from this angle, we see the Mechas made in our image, just as we could be made in God's image. Is it possible that we could remove God from the world/lose touch with our creator in the same manner the mechas have? David's own quest for love and acceptance from his creators, could be equated to mankind's own quest for his spiritual "creator" (here crossing all religions) and the sense of purpose that this grants to one's life.

Just as David's quest is ultimately illusory and false, could the same be said of our own? Are we simply "fooling ourselves", as David is? Do the mythologies and "fairy-tales" of religious text belie a much more mundane origin?

I find A.I. to be one of the most profoundly sad films I've seen. In addition to the obvious Kubrick influences, it seems very Bergman - humanity alone and searching in a world where God is silent or may not exist at all. The last time I watched it I cried a very long time.
post #329 of 434
Ricardo_C wrote:

Quote:
*resist urge to scream "THEY ARE NOT ALIENS, GOD DAMMIT"*

Tim RH wrote:

Quote:
They aren't aliens, that's for sure. They are futuristic robots, pal.

Au contraire, at the risk of blaspheming the Virgin Mary---which like sentiment this topic seems always to evoke---I would argue that they are indeed "alien", in the truest sense of the word. Their "otherness" is underscored by their need---their quest---to "understand" humanity (which they must have deemed so unlike themselves).

It may be true, though, that they're not extraterrestrials!
post #330 of 434
But I think the ending suggests that the mecha civilization is not simply a replacement of human civilization, not just the winning side in the evolutionary battle, but in fact our evolutionary legacy in much the same way that we, homo sapiens, are the evolutionary legacy of homo habilus, etc. Much as the Star Child is to David Bowman/Humankind, the mechas represent our (still corporeal) evolutionary destiny. They are imbued with our most human qualities - our emotions, our curiosity, our need to love and be loved - but aren't handicapped by our physical needs.

Consider this in the context of "a.i.": without the mecha civilization, humankind would have no destiny, no evolutionary legacy, no civilization to carry on our memory and advance beyond "us". Homo sapiens would be just an unknown, extinct species on a planet no longer physically habitable (to "us"). They are all, in that sense, our children.
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