A Few Words About A few words about...™ Top Gun 3D -- in Blu-ray (1 Viewer)

Robert Harris · Feb 15, 2013

The late Tony Scott's Top Gun, has been a wildly popular film since it first arrived over a quarter century ago. It has been released on most every home video format, possibly with the exception of RCA Selectavision (CED). The film has now been antiquated, and taken back to 3D of the early to mid-1950s, presumably in an effort to bring in a few more dollars to the Paramount coffers. That's not a bad thing, of course. Although I'm not generally a fan of conversions, this one kind of works, but not fully. Some shots, especially some airborne, have an appealing depth to them. But along with that depth comes ghosting, and that becomes annoying. Color has been re-worked a bit. Grain seems to be in place, and the overall impression that this was shot on film is still there. I look at this as an interesting experiment, although I'm not certain that it's one that needed to be performed. I'd bet that for sheer box-office gross, a nice IMAXy DCP of the Star Trek films might have done well. A quality, if occasionally troublesome image, and great audio yield a mid-level success on Blu-ray. Image - 3 Audio - 5 Top Gun is a wonderfully entertaining film, but my take on this new release is that while it's fun, it really is for 3D fanatics only. The film has been issued previously on Blu-ray. RAH

Robert Crawford · Feb 15, 2013

Why the low image grade? I would've at least expected a 3.5 from you.
Crawdaddy

Robert Harris · Feb 16, 2013

Originally Posted by Robert Crawford
Why the low image grade? I would've at least expected a 3.5 from you.
Crawdaddy

Ghosting.

Patrick Donahue · Feb 16, 2013

Sad to read the first line "the late Tony Scott."

vincent89 · Feb 16, 2013

The sky is so green. See this Is it right?

Michel_Hafner · Feb 16, 2013

Robert Harris said:
Ghosting.

So the ghosting is part of the image instead of an artifact of the display/projector you are using, due to cross talk?

Robert Harris · Feb 17, 2013

Originally Posted by Michel_Hafner
So the ghosting is part of the image instead of an artifact of the display/projector you are using, due to cross talk?

That would be my presumption, as it is far more obvious than what appears in other 3D software, the majority having little or no artifacts.

GregK · Feb 17, 2013

Robert Harris said:
That would be my presumption, as it is far more obvious than what appears in other 3D software, the majority having little or no artifacts.

This is incorrect. Ghosting occurs from the display itself and in a few rare occasions, in the glasses themselves. A properly authored 3-D bluray never has ghosting.

Robert Harris · Feb 17, 2013

Originally Posted by GregK
This is incorrect. Ghosting occurs from the display itself and in a few rare occasions, in the glasses themselves. A properly authored 3-D bluray never has ghosting.

Which seems to imply that Avatar and quite few other titles have been poorly authored.
RAH

GregK · Feb 17, 2013

There is nothing wrong with the authoring of the AVATAR 3D Bluray from a crosstalk/ghosting standpoint. Again, any perceived ghosting is likely found in your display. I have yet to see an official 3D Bluray which has crosstalk "ghosting" issues that are not related to the 3D display or glasses.

Robert Harris · Feb 17, 2013

Originally Posted by GregK
There is nothing wrong with the authoring of the AVATAR 3D Bluray from a crosstalk/ghosting standpoint. Again, any perceived ghosting is likely found in your display. I have yet to see an official 3D Bluray which has crosstalk "ghosting" issues that are not related to the 3D display or glasses.

Am aware of this. Point with Avatar was that it looks fine, same setup, same glasses, while parts of TG appear problematic. Viewed TG moments after Monsters, Inc., which had no problems.

GregK · Feb 18, 2013

Robert Harris said:
Am aware of this. Point with Avatar was that it looks fine, same setup, same glasses, while parts of TG appear problematic. Viewed TG moments after Monsters, Inc., which had no problems.

And those parts of TG are likely higher contrast sections placed in front or behind the stereo window. (Or saying this in technical terms, when high contrast content is placed in positive or negative z-space). This is when some 3DTV displays will show their shortcomings. For example, TOP GUN 3D has sections where the jets are placed in positive z-space. Sometimes these shots are higher contrast. When I was loaned a copy of TG3D from a friend who received it early, I saw no ghosting whatsoever. Not a surprise given I watched this feature on a DLP projector. One of the best examples of what I am trying to explain occurred a few years back with the 3-D Bluray release of MY BLOODY VALENTINE. The producers often had placed subject material at different levels in z-space, which included a lot of high contrast material, such as bright mining lamps in dark tunnels that are often placed deep in the stereo window. The 3-D was excellent, with a wide range of depth and sometimes aggressive use of "off-screen" effects. .. But how did MBV 3D fare on 3DTVs at the time of its release? Most LCD and LED sets owners complained of ghosting, with some even declaring the disc .."defective". Most plasma owners noted a few occasions of ghosting, but overall felt the disc was not as bad as others were making it out to be. * Passive sets were not out in numbers at the time of the original release, but I can confirm MBV3D had only a few very brief instances of "ghosting" on my passive display. It was still a very enjoyable 3-D presentation. DLP owners, on the other hand, universally agreed the MBV3D bluray as fine, and saw no ghosting in the 3-D presentation. I've been using DLP 3D projection in different modified forms since 2004, and can confirm the technology as of 2013 still offers the best 3-D presentation. From a crosstalk/ghosting standpoint, it is superior to theatrical polarized presentations. While these are subjective reviews, it is also backed up with factual technical data from the Stereoscopic Displays and Applications Committee http://www.stereoscopic.org/ The manufactures are also well aware of the shortcomings of their 3D displays, although for obvious reasons do not discuss this publicly. The only time you will hear about ghosting from a manufacturer is if they have worked on their design and want to boast on better crosstalk reduction, less ghosting, etc. The various display types I mentioned above are generalities, with some companies working harder than others to improve their 3-D experience. For example, Panasonic has continued to make advances in their 3-D LCD projectors, with their latest model being closer to achieving DLP level cancellation. Sadly this is nothing new in the world of displays. Some displays have poor black levels, others have color issues, contrast issues and so on, all at varing levels, so it is no big surprise many do not have ideal 3-D performance. In all of these areas, some content will not highlight a display's shortcomings, while other content is more demanding. For the more demanding 3-D content, different techniques can be used in the mastering stage to reduce crosstalk for viewing on weaker displays, but ..like other image parameters, many times this also results in a compromise of the original 3-D composition and/or overall image quality. If I had a display that doesn't have ideal black levels, there are going to be a few discs out there that won't look good. But that's not a defect in the disc authoring itself. The also applies to ghosting and 3-D. The BDA worked hard on developing the 3-D bluray format as a no-compromise stereoscopic playback format, and their efforts have paid off. With these factors in mind and to avoid further confusion, may I suggest whenever noting ghosting issues in a review perhaps also mentioning "on my given display", given the actual encoding itself is fine. Greg Kintz Technical Director 3-D Film Archive http://www.3dfilmarchive.com/

Robert Harris · Feb 18, 2013

Originally Posted by GregK
And those parts of TG are likely higher contrast sections placed in front or behind the stereo window. (Or saying this in technical terms, when high contrast content is placed in positive or negative z-space). This is when some 3DTV displays will show their shortcomings. For example, TOP GUN 3D has sections where the jets are placed in positive z-space. Sometimes these shots are higher contrast. When I was loaned a copy of TG3D from a friend who received it early, I saw no ghosting whatsoever. Not a surprise given I watched this feature on a DLP projector.
One of the best examples of what I am trying to explain occurred a few years back with the 3-D Bluray release of MY BLOODY VALENTINE. The producers often had placed subject material at different levels in z-space, which included a lot of high contrast material, such as bright mining lamps in dark tunnels that are often placed deep in the stereo window. The 3-D was excellent, with a wide range of depth and sometimes aggressive use of "off-screen" effects. .. But how did MBV 3D fare on 3DTVs at the time of its release?
Most LCD and LED sets owners complained of ghosting, with some even declaring the disc .."defective".
Most plasma owners noted a few occasions of ghosting, but overall felt the disc was not as bad as others were making it out to be.
* Passive sets were not out in numbers at the time of the original release, but I can confirm MBV3D had only a few very brief instances of "ghosting" on my passive display. It was still a very enjoyable 3-D presentation.
DLP owners, on the other hand, universally agreed the MBV3D bluray as fine, and saw no ghosting in the 3-D presentation. I've been using DLP 3D projection in different modified forms since 2004, and can confirm the technology as of 2013 still offers the best 3-D presentation. From a crosstalk/ghosting standpoint, it is superior to theatrical polarized presentations.
While these are subjective reviews, it is also backed up with factual technical data from the Stereoscopic Displays and Applications Committee http://www.stereoscopic.org/ The manufactures are also well aware of the shortcomings of their 3D displays, although for obvious reasons do not discuss this publicly. The only time you will hear about ghosting from a manufacturer is if they have worked on their design and want to boast on better crosstalk reduction, less ghosting, etc. The various display types I mentioned above are generalities, with some companies working harder than others to improve their 3-D experience. For example, Panasonic has continued to make advances in their 3-D LCD projectors, with their latest model being closer to achieving DLP level cancellation.
Sadly this is nothing new in the world of displays. Some displays have poor black levels, others have color issues, contrast issues and so on, all at varing levels, so it is no big surprise many do not have ideal 3-D performance. In all of these areas, some content will not highlight a display's shortcomings, while other content is more demanding. For the more demanding 3-D content, different techniques can be used in the mastering stage to reduce crosstalk for viewing on weaker displays, but ..like other image parameters, many times this also results in a compromise of the original 3-D composition and/or overall image quality. If I had a display that doesn't have ideal black levels, there are going to be a few discs out there that won't look good. But that's not a defect in the disc authoring itself. The also applies to ghosting and 3-D. The BDA worked hard on developing the 3-D bluray format as a no-compromise stereoscopic playback format, and their efforts have paid off.
With these factors in mind and to avoid further confusion, may I suggest whenever noting ghosting issues in a review perhaps also mentioning "on my given display", given the actual encoding itself is fine.
Greg Kintz
Technical Director
3-D Film Archive
http://www.3dfilmarchive.com/

All good points. I was viewing on a JVC RS50.
While I find 3D generally "interesting," I'm still extremely troubled by the lack of proper illumination, which only seems achievable via double projection.
For me Dial "M," which was a major release for me, was a great disappointment because of its overall lack of brightness.
RAH

Moe Dickstein · Feb 19, 2013

So glad I have a DLP RP set

Not that I was going to get this anyway but if it ever shows up for cheap...

Wayne_j · Feb 19, 2013

It is currently widely available for $19.99. I would call that pretty cheap for a 3D disc.

Moe Dickstein · Feb 19, 2013

True, but since I'm not really a fan of the film, for me cheap would be if I see it used for $10 in a couple years lol.

Robert Crawford · Feb 19, 2013

I'm going to give this title a spin this evening on my plasma. Crawdaddy

Johnny Angell · Feb 20, 2013

Would the conversion of this film be considered better or worse than I, Robot?

Todd J Moore · Feb 20, 2013

Just picked this up and looked at a couple of scenes. Not bad looking. Not bad at all. It's been years since I've watched the whole movie, but I may have to give it a spin this weekend.

Tino · Feb 20, 2013

I thought this looked terrific. The 3D conversion was one of the best I have seen. Plenty of depth and very little ghosting or crosstalk on my Sony display. Definitely better than I Robot ( which I didn't think was bad) and a pleasant surprise. :tu::tu:

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