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Good 4 ohm receiver

post #1 of 18
2/22/12 at 9:41am
Thread Starter 
I am thinking about getting axiom m80 speakers and I know that they require a 4 ohm load and my current receiver isn't capable of that load. So I was thinking about just getting a seperate amplifier for those two speakers, but my current receiver is outdated in my opinion. Then I thought about getting a pioneer 1121 and getting a seperate amplifier with it.

But now I am leaning on just getting a 4 ohm capable reciever, so when I get the axiom surrounds and center I won't need another seperate amplifier for that.

Now I have given the background I have a couple of questions.

1. What is a good 4 ohm reciever in the 1000 dollar range.

2. When I have the two 4 ohm speakers with the 4 ohm reciever, will I be able to use my 8 ohm surrounds and center with the 4 ohm receiver?

3. Are you able to add seperate amplifiers to speakers if they are hooked up to the reciever amplification (more or less being able to have it amplified with two sources)

4. Does this sound like a good idea?
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post #2 of 18
2/22/12 at 10:25am
There are very few receivers that adequately handle a true 4 Ohm load even at around the $1k point. If only the two mains will be 4 Ohm, a decent receiver can generally handle that, certainly at that price point. Not a fan of Pioneer receivers, but if it has preamp outs, you are likely better off going that route = new receiver and a 2ch amp.
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post #3 of 18
2/22/12 at 9:16pm
Thread Starter 
So how exactly would that work?
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post #4 of 18
2/23/12 at 5:30am
FYI. I am using a Parasound HCA-855a external amp, 85x5 with a Pioneer VSX-32 receiver acting as a processor. The Parasound has no problem driving 4 ohm speakers, I have used it with M&K LCR-750 4 ohm speakers and still use them for the rear. Also, the 85 wpc Parasound is about 4 times more powerful then the Pioneer receiver that is rated at 110wpc.

The Pioneer delivers 770 watts, supposedly, but uses just 450 watts of electricity. And can generate about 119 DB in the room

Adding the Parasound is rated at 425 watts, draws up to 750 watts of electricity, and can create 124 DB in the same room, same speakers

If all you need is to drive the front two speakers, look for an HCA-1000, or similar. Cheap, powerful 2 channel amps. Also look for Carver, Emotiva, Outlaw, Adcom and others. They can be found pretty cheap used and Amp typically last a long time and don't become outdated.
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post #5 of 18
2/23/12 at 5:35am
I would say that any of the Onkyo receivers from the TX-NR709 and up would work fine. Don't forget the matching center speaker! It's very important that the front three speakers be timbre matched.
The TX-NR709 and up receivers are 4 ohm certified. So, when doing the initial setup out of the box, set it up for 4 ohm use. This is how I set up my Onkyo TX-SR805 with my 4 ohm Polk Audio speakers. I have not had a single problem with this. My other four speakers are all 8 ohm, so there's no problem with mixing them like you want to. Even though the receiver is 4 ohm certified, I'd still get an external amp if you ever go with a full 5.1 or 7.1 set of 4 ohm speakers.

Amazon sells receivers at a pretty good price. I got mine from them. Right now, the TX-NR is $539 at Amazon w/free shipping. Onkyo's site shows it as $899. So, at Amazon, you can step up to the next higher model (TX-NR809), and get a little more for your money. http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-NR809-Certified-7-2-Channel-Receiver/dp/B00505F01E/ref=sr_1_7?s=aht&ie=UTF8&qid=1330003710&sr=1-7 Good luck with whatever you decide on.
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post #6 of 18
2/23/12 at 6:39am
It was my impression that the Onkyos handle 4 ohms by a switch that reduces the current, not by having a truly stronger amp.

If you want an amp that is spec'd to handle 4 ohms I think you'll have to go with a dedicated amp, or the receiver/amp combo. A lot of the newer receivers have pre-outs for at least the FL/FR, some for all the speakers. The pre-out connects to an amp for those channels. (But you should not drive the speaker from two sources, that would be bad for the speaker, the amps, and probably the sound.)

That said, many people (not me) drive their 4 ohm speakers with receivers not rated for 4 ohms. The concensus seems to be that if you get a good amp and don't overdrive the speakers you'll be fine. Again, I can't vouch for this as I've never had 4 ohm speakers.

Combining speakers of different resistance is not a problem (aside from the receiver being able to handle the lower load. Or to put it another way, if the receiver can handle 4 ohms, it can handle any combination of 4/6/8 ohms.
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post #7 of 18
2/23/12 at 9:17am
It sort of depends on what you listen to and how loud. My receiver is 120wpc (42lbs, large toroidal power supply) and I have all 4 Ohm speakers and a large room. At typical listening levels, the receiver would be able to handle it, but at the elevated levels that I like to listen at, the receiver doesn't like it.

Receivers that handle low impedance loads with a switch aren't doing you any favors. They ultimately limit the total current to achieve this, so you still run the risk of clipping. Can you get away with it? Yes. Is it good for your speakers long term? Probably not. Onkyos do have solid amp sections, but they are no different than the other manufacturers in that their power supplies are not sufficient to handle a full compliment of low impedance speakers. As I mentioned though, it may be OK with just one pair running that way. The only way to know for sure would be to try it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfar View Post

So how exactly would that work?

Need to know if your receiver has preamp outputs first. If it does, you simply run a RCA interconnect from the receiver to the amp and connect the speakers to the amp instead of the receiver.
Edited by John Garcia - 2/23/12 at 9:29am
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post #8 of 18
2/23/12 at 9:19am
My Onkyo doesn't have a switch. Not an external one anyway. I just set it up for 4 ohm use in the initial setup menus. I suppose it's some kind of internal switch, but I'm not sure. I just know it works.
in the past, after reading how some people's receivers ran hot, I put mine to the test. One day when the people upstairs were gone, I put a movie in and cranked the volume up to "0", which is extremely loud. I listened at that volume for about 45 minutes. The receiver barely got warm. smile.gif
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post #9 of 18
2/23/12 at 9:37am
Thread Starter 
Thanks everyone for the help. You guys have my brain going in 10 more directions now.

So from what everyone said. I think I'm going to do a receiver with great features that appeal to me, one that has pre-out's for every channel. Something like the pioneer vsx-1121, I'm not too crazy on onkyo because they don't have apple airplay...If I'm wrong someone correct me. Or if someone thinks onkyo would be a better choice explain why. Then a seperate amp. There were a few mentioned, but does anyone have any other ones they prefer. Also where's a good place to buy them from?

So to hook it up to the seperate amp you just put speaker wire from the pre-out's on the receiver on the channel you want to the amp?

Finally, I understand how speakers are more important for the sound you want, but I don't understand how when people say that the amp section in a certain reciever is stronger...how do you determine that and determine if a receiver will sound better because wattage numbers are trash.

Thanks everyone.
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post #10 of 18
2/23/12 at 9:55am
Pioneer makes fine receivers and the 1121 has received a lot of positive reviews, I think you'll do fine with that. The Onkyos are nice and know for craming a lot of features in for the price, but I wouldn't say it's a better choice.

You might want to hold up on the separate amp until you give it a try with just the 1121. Also, I highly recommend you go over to the Axiom site and ask about experiences with receivers driving the M80, I think you'll get a lot of useful feedback.

You don't make the receiver-to-amp (pre-out to pre-in) using speaker wire, you use an RCA cable. Speaker wire is used for the amplified signal.

As far as amp strength, a lot of it is word of mouth and likely as accurate as you'd expect. There are some reviews by enthusiast that connect a meter to the amp sections and measure output. You could try and dig up a few of those. And to be precise, the manufacturor's wattage numbers are not to be trusted; but if you do the test yourself you can get useful information. Most of us would rather compare notes at audio forums ... like this one.
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post #11 of 18
2/23/12 at 10:03am
Yep, kind of tough to really compare one amp section to another on paper, but a big weight difference is often a good indicator since the heaviest thing in the receiver should be the power supply and a hefty power supply means you can typically trust the rating. That's sort of a rule of thumb, not hard science smile.gif
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post #12 of 18
2/23/12 at 10:15pm
Thread Starter 
I don't think the pioneer 1121 is 4 ohm though.. So wouldn't that not work with the m80's?


Also I emailed axiom yesterday and they recommended me the onkyo 809 or whatever the number was, a Harmon karmon, and yamaha... But all of them didn't have the airplay I think unless I mixed it and those are big features to me... Maybe the Yamaha had it I forget though.

Anyone know good sites for separate amplifiers?
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post #13 of 18
2/24/12 at 1:39am
Axiom has pretty good support, so maybe try again. But I didn't mean go through Axiom, I meant ask about receivers on their public forum, which is like this one.
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post #14 of 18
2/24/12 at 6:14am
So, even Axiom recommended Onkyo............... smile.gif
Why does it have to be Airplay? Are you wanting to connect an iPod? If so, an iPod will connect to the Onkyo.
This is from Onkyo's site, about one of their features:
Quote:
iPod Ready (direct USB input, optional UP-A1)
To see all the 809's features, go here, and click on the "Features" tab: http://www.us.onkyo.com/model.cfm?m=TX-NR809&class=Receiver&p=i
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post #15 of 18
2/24/12 at 11:17am
I used an Onkyo stereo receiver in a distributed system hooked up to 3 pairs of speakers via an impedance matching switch and it handled it well. It seems last year they had some quality issues though, but they are a solid brand. I'd choose a mid level Onkyo over a similar Pioneer.
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post #16 of 18
2/24/12 at 9:38pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Garcia View Post

I used an Onkyo stereo receiver in a distributed system hooked up to 3 pairs of speakers via an impedance matching switch and it handled it well. It seems last year they had some quality issues though, but they are a solid brand. I'd choose a mid level Onkyo over a similar Pioneer.

Why would you choose onkyo over pioneer?

AirPlay is important to me because I like the idea of it. Wireless, I can access my whole iTunes playlist through AirPlay and my phone.
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post #17 of 18
2/25/12 at 3:42pm
The top models from Pioneer are decent, but I have never been too impressed with the mid to lower models. They offer a lot of features, but their performance doesn't quite deliver. Granted, I have not listened to the latest ones, but have listened to a few of the previous ones and had one in my posession for some evaluation with a variety of speakers for a few weeks. Pioneer was great years ago in the days of stereo, but maybe not so much now. I should also note that I still have a Pioneer SX990 from 1971 that still works. Picked it up in excellent shape at an estate sale for $5 and it still sounds good.
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post #18 of 18
2/27/12 at 7:07pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks, I'll take your input into consideration. I'll give onkyo a call and see for sure if they have air play.

Is their graphical interface setup good?
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