2012 Multi-room HTPC

To summarize: 2012 brings a new job and move out of state, selling my current house and buying a new place in Virginia. God willing and the creek don't rise, next year could be a lovely year to do a multi-room HTPC system.

But I don't know. I'm just starting the research. Most important is WAF (wife approval factor). This would replace a pair of TivoHDs, which my wife loves. And we're both Apple people; usability is important. If a Windows Media Center as DVR is markedly inferior to Tivo in usability, all the tech specs in the world won't matter: it will be veto'd by the master-planning committee.

So I need to find video demos and reviews of a 7MC system in action -- something I could plausibly build and configure. A hyper-configured system that's brilliant in execution but unreasonable for a duffer is no good to me :)

I believe there are some videos in this forum, but I don't recall what thread they're in. Pointers to those are appreciated.

Other good links, be it YouTube or other are good.

I need to know good or bad, how this compares to Tivo. Getting a false impression, spending over a $1000, and then being disappointed and having my wife mad at me is far worse than deciding up front this is not the system for me and aborting before I get started.

Links

http://hd.engadget.com/2009/07/27/windows-7-media-center-review/

This indicates I build a 7MC HTPC, set my Xbox into Extender mode and I'm done. DVR on live TV at both locations. Rip Blu-rays to HTPC and Xbox can see the whole library. Matt's described this before but I've never had time to watch his videos. This Engadget review is really impressing me. I still don't know how it feels compared to Tivo, but the appearance looks pretty comparable.

But there are some major weaknesses. The top two might be deal-breakers.

• Only one Live TV buffer, so when you change the channel you lose it.
• Can't record the buffer.
• Configuring the display is still a mess. Things don't act as you'd want, it's a mystery to figure out what Microsoft's idea of a monitor or built-in display is, etc. All we want to do is to be able to turn off overscan for goodness' sake.
• Settings for single recording are still useless, can't even record extra on a show without extending the entire series.
• Still no resolution pass through, so everything is scaled to one resolution.
• Grid guide still won't take up the entire screen.

http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/05/tivo-premiere-vs-windows-7-media-center/

Very positive comparison of 7MC compared to Tivo Premiere. But we watch live TV, sometimes toggling between two tuners, and sometimes using both multiple TVs. This might make an HTPC unworkable for my wife and my usage. Which would be a bummer, because otherwise I'm getting pretty excited about what a 7MC can do and also the project itself.

Double-ugh. Confirming the inability to record a program from the start that's in the live buffer. And the 7MC tuners don't crank along in the background 24x7? We enjoy Tivo's "Suggestions", but it sound like Windows Media Center only records what it is programmed to record, and if there's in the queue, turns off effectively.

But here WMC gets a potential win, though I won't know if it matters until I get a new place with cable and see if it has copy restrictions enabled.

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/t/299750/how-to-make-your-windows-media-center-a-real-hd-machine

(comments TBD)

I recall you put up some build and demo videos, but I haven't tracked them down yet. If you can cross-link some, that would be cool. 

Link added to my previous comment.

I'll have to search for clarification on that. I think they were using a dual-tuner setup, but only had one channel of live TV. My inference was that's a limitation baked into Windows, only running one tuner of live TV at a time. But perhaps not.

I've had some ongoing concern and confusion, based on the Engadget review and Tivo comparison, on live TV with an extender. There's been some discussion in the Ceton thread, and my concerns are mostly allayed, summarized in this comment:

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattCR 

As far as live tuners;  you have as many recording as you want (well, up to twelve) and as many as 5 live tuners (1 in the main, and then 4 extenders)

Having addressed some feature concerns and technical questions, I should back up and consider my goals. I do have some specific hardware purchase ideas, but it would be good to stay away from purchase decisions until I've confirmed my general goals can be achieved.

I thought I was going to build this system last year, summer of 2011. That didn't happen. This year is looking realistic, maybe this Spring, with a new job, new apartment, and new cable subscription.

In a previous thread, I'd outlined some goals:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/t/299750/how-to-make-your-windows-media-center-a-real-hd-machine/30#post_3806894

I'm going to revise the goals, to try and be more realistic and higher level:

* High WAF :)

* Dedicated hardware for replacement and upgrade to my two TivoHD units (living room and bedroom)

** 4 tuners minimum

** use with cable subscription (hopefully FiOS service)

** Always on, 24x7 operation

* Master "brain" unit in one room that controls & streams all tuners, programming, media; simultaneously streaming any content to other rooms

* All units operable by Harmony One or other Harmony remotes

* Serve as digital library for all my content, approximately

** 100 hours HDTV

** 100 Blu-rays

** 200 DVDs

** 400 CDs

** 10,000 Photos

* Standard HDMI connection to HDTV and receivers for A/V; 3D capable for future-proofing

* Integration with online services (e.g. Hulu, Amazon Instant, Netflix, NBC.com)  

* Simpler configuration desired.

** Willing to adjust storage file formats to simplify setup: Convert DVD / Blu-ray to iPhone / iPad use would be nice, but is done infrequently

** Do not want to spend 6 months converting content from disc to HTPC

* Budget: $3000 max, $1000 target (excludes cable card subs, or other subscriptions needed)

Some thoughts on budget assuming a 3 year usage.

Option 1:

Keep current pair of TivoHD's

$22/mo for 3 years

Total: $790

Option 2:

Upgrade to Tivo Premiere: 2 * $100

$20 + $15 / mo for 3 years

Total: $1460

Option 3:

Upgrade to Tivo Premiere: 2 * $100

I've already started collecting hardware ideas at NewEgg, to get a sense of budget. It's taken some effort to change my thinking from fastest-CPU-I-can-afford to a adequate-and-efficient. This should be publicly visible

HTPC Wishlist

https://secure.newegg.com/WishList/MySavedWishDetail.aspx?ID=19266106

Hmm...I'll try to fix that this evening. Don't quite understand NewEgg's lists.

If it were expected to be worthwhile, I could wait on Ivy Bridge. The one preview I read made it sound designed for HTPC use.

Here's my list, a collection of possible basic hardware choices

Qty.	Image	Product Description	Unit Price	Savings	Total Price
2		SILVERSTONE Black 8.0mm aluminum front panel, 0.8mm SECC body GRANDIA GD04B Micro ATX Media Center / HTPC Case Model #:GD04B Item #:N82E16811163158 Return Policy:Standard Return Policy In Stock	$99.99		$199.98
1		SILVERSTONE Black Aluminum skin reinforced plastic front panel, 0.8mm SECC body MILO Series ML03B Micro ATX Media Center ... Model #:ML03B Item #:N82E16811163174 Return Policy:Standard Return Policy In Stock	$59.99		$59.99
1		Antec Mult-Station Basic Internal IR receiver and remote Model #:Mult-Station Basic Item #:N82E16811999191 Return Policy:Standard Return Policy In Stock	$36.99	-$11.00 Instant	$25.99
1		Link Depot 6 ft. Computer AC Power Cable Model POW-6 Model #:POW-6 Item #:N82E16812189160 Return Policy:Standard Return Policy In Stock	$3.99		$3.99
1		GIGABYTE GA-Z68MA-D2H-B3 LGA 1155 Intel Z68 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 Micro ATX Intel Motherboard Model #:GA-Z68MA-D2H-B3 Item #:N82E16813128495 Return Policy:Standard Return Policy In Stock	$124.99		$124.99
1		Antec NEO ECO 400C 400W Continuous Power ATX12V 2.3 / EPS12V 80 PLUS Certified Active PFC Power Supply Model #:NEO ECO 400C Item #:N82E16817371029 Return Policy:Standard Return Policy In Stock	$59.99	-$15.00 Instant	$44.99
1		Intel Core i3-2105 Sandy Bridge 3.1GHz LGA 1155 65W Dual-Core Desktop Processor Intel HD Graphics 3000 BX80623I32105 Model #:BX80623I32105 Item #:N82E16819115090 Return Policy:CPU Replacement Only Return Policy In Stock	$134.99		$134.99
1		Intel Core i3-2125 Sandy Bridge 3.3GHz LGA 1155 65W Dual-Core Desktop Processor Intel HD Graphics 3000 BX80623I32125 Model #:BX80623I32125 Item #:N82E16819115093 Return Policy:CPU Replacement Only Return Policy In Stock	$149.99		$149.99
1		Intel Core i3-2120T Sandy Bridge 2.6GHz LGA 1155 35W Dual-Core Desktop Processor Intel HD Graphics 2000 BX80623I32120T Model #:BX80623I32120T Item #:N82E16819115094 Return Policy:CPU Replacement Only Return Policy In Stock	$134.99		$134.99
1		G.SKILL Ripjaws X Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Desktop Memory Model F3-12800CL9D-8GBXL Model #:F3-12800CL9D-8GBXL Item #:N82E16820231428 Return Policy:Memory Standard Return Policy In Stock	$44.99		$44.99
1		SAMSUNG EcoGreen F4 HD204UI 2TB SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive Model #:HD204UI Item #:N82E16822152245 Return Policy:Standard Return Policy In Stock	$179.99		$179.99
1		LITE-ON Black 12X Blu-ray Burner with Blu-ray 3D feature SATA IHBS112-29 - OEM Model #:IHBS112-29 Item #:N82E16827106346 Return Policy:Standard Return Policy In Stock	$109.99	-$10.00 Instant	$99.99
Subtotal:					$1,204.87

I roughed out a complete system to check realistic cost: about $1600 with extender. No effort was made to save cost, but a few items are on sale. I already have Windows 7 and an Xbox 360, so it's closer to $1300 for me.

It might be missing additional software costs (for going beyond 7MC)  and a RAID, if media size requires more than a simple hard drive.

Cool, thanks!

I've got a Harmony One, and will buy some appropriate IR receiver module. I might get a Microsoft MCE remote kit to help with setup to start (rather than the generic remote I linked above).

I've got Win7 HP. I bought the 3-license family disc for Parallels on the Mac last year and have a license or two to spare.

I'd be OK with a BR reader. But that particular BR writer was recommended at AVS; there was a note that some other BR readers now throttle or prevent ripping, and this one was known to work well and fast.

I didn't realize the case came with a power cord. And I probably have some packed away at home. 

I'm uncertain what to do about hard drive space. I estimate I need 5TB to rip my library, or about 1.5 TB if I transcode / recompress.

* My wife and I watch special features.

* It seems silly to take the great BR quality and reduce it with lossy transcoding and decompression.

* Ripping looks like maybe an hour per disc. But transcoding / recompress is like 4 hrs per BR movie?

This is beyond my current knowledge: how to reasonably setup and use 5-6TB of disc space in a Windows system. Buy two 3 TB drives and tell Windows to pull content from two drives? Do I need to setup a RAID? Is that affordable? Searching NewEgg for RAID cards is not encouraging. Cheap ones have bad reviews. Good ones are 20% of my budget. Any comments are welcome.

I'm reconsidering 4GB over 8GB RAM. MS suggests you only need 3GB for a head + two satellite system.

(I wish Microsoft had useful information about their Media Center system. Their info is barely more than hand-waving.)

Cool.

Does that work with a media extender?

I'm thinking of having the main unit, this HTPC, in the bedroom, and using the Xbox 360 in the living as the main interface. All "Blu-rays" would be watched in the living room, via the extender. I would never want to play videogames in the bedroom, and using my 360 for an extender saves me the cost and bother of a new extender).

Basically, 75% of use would be via the 360 in my current plan.

Sweet. Good to hear.

Adam - That looks like a good option. I'm undecided between a external bay add-in, to make the IR receiver part of the box, like a normal HT piece; or to use something like you link with a long cable to snake a small IR receiver to a convenient location and then hide the main box.

I could totally hide the main box, except for the need to access the drive to rip discs.

Thoughts on BD setup speed:

Rip

12x read speed, assume 6x actual (or average) speed.

A 2 hour movie, with special features, is maybe 4 hrs of total content

2*120 / 6 = 40 minutes rip per disc.

All features, full quality, preserved

Tremendous storage required, maybe 30 GB on average per "movie"

Rip & Transcode

Assume 2 hr movie, 24 fps 1080p

120/6 = 20 min rip

xbit's reviews show i3 transcoding MPEG-2 to H.264 at about 17 fps

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/amd-fusion-intel-core-i3_6.html#sect0

24/17*120min = 170 min transcode

190 min total per movie

Presumably 5x reduction in storage space, maybe 5 GB on average per movie

But all special features and commentaries are "lost" and some quality is lost (perhaps unnoticeable)

DVDs will be faster, of course.

Here's my first-cut estimation of my library. A pair of two 3 GB drives should do it with some room to grow. (I don't buy many discs). I could also go a bit bonkers and add a 32 GB SSD just for the OS and apps. That's more a frivolous luxury, but in a $2000 build, what's another $60? ;) I'll do a better disc count & estimate after the move and I've got access again to my library.

I didn't know Blu-ray wasn't MPEG-2; the Wikipedia article indicated to me it was.

Those speeds ultimately come from the second-pass encode times at:

http://www.techarp.com/showarticle.aspx?artno=669&pgno=0

First-pass encode are much faster, over 80 fps for the i3. I assumed the pessimistic time applied. I've not read enough to know for sure, but I think that's in the right ballpark.

I'm not concerned about archiving or even protecting my discs. (I've not scratched DVD or CD in a decade.) I'm interested in simplicity and ease of use. If I have to spend every night for three months queuing up batch jobs to re-encode all my discs...that's no good. If I still have to use the disc to watch the special features that first viewing...why bother with a media center? Against these issues, another $250 to hold all my discs in "raw" format seems not unreasonable...or I bag the whole thing and stay with TivoHD.

So I'm leaning ever more towards a 6TB dual-drive system.

Though I've recently read that Xbox 360 is slow and its "streaming" quality is sub-par. That worries me, since it would be the primary interface for watching my Blu-rays off the system. I need to check some more on that and see if this is a "real" thing or merely the grumbling of some online Picky Pauls :)

This might change my plans.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/01/10/ceton-announces-multi-room-dvr-and-echo-extender-hands-on/

I'll keep doing my research, but Ceton might upend the DVR business.