Sony STR-DN1000 Any thoughts? Music mostly!

Sony is not usually considered a good value for receivers (or speakers; DVD players and TVs are good). However I'm not personally familiar with this model, and the specs seem quite reasonable.

The 110w is at 1KHz, that will not reflect normal playback. You'd have to compare that to the similar rating for the Pioneer. My guess is the Pioneer will give you more power. Onyko usually gives the best value for cost. All manufacturers seem to distort their power ratings. Harman/Kardon is often cited for providing the best amplifier subsystem and distorting their specs the least. (But both are generalizations.)

All-in-all, as much as I don't like Sony receivers, for $200 it seems like a good buy.

 

 

IMO, you're way too hung up on wattage numbers.

In a nutshell, wattage ratings on receivers are pretty much useless.  Don't lose sleep over them.  Watts per channel should not be the key spec you look at when shopping for a receiver.  I'f you're looking at receivers in the neighborhood of 100wpc, then performance-wise you can go with any model that's in the 85-120 wpc and not experience ANY audible difference.

 

Likewise, wattage ratings for speakers are not that important.  If you're concerned about having a LOUD system, it's more a factor of the speakers you pair with the receiver.  You want high sensitivity (dB) in the speakers.  Anything above 90 will be plenty loud in moderate rooms with even 70 wpc behind them.  I can't find the specs on those Infinity speakers, so I don't know whether there's room for improvement there or not.

 

When you talk about improving a system, it starts with better speakers.  Quality speakers can sound great even with an average receiver or amplifier behind them.  Crummy speakers will ALWAYS sound crummy, no matter how many watts you throw at them.

 

 

 

 

Some important concepts for those concerned with ultimate power output.

The continuous output of a single or multi-channel amplifier can never be more than the continuous AC power input to the power supply.


First of all, the STR-DN1000 receiver is rated as 110 watts x 7.

But the power supply specification indicates that the unit will draw 250 watts maximum from the AC socket.

The receiver is rated for two channels (stereo) at 110 watts, or 220 watts output, so we know the power supply combined with the amplifiers and other electronics is (about) 88% efficient. But even assuming 100% efficiency, you're never going to get more than a steady output of 250 watts out of this receiver.

That means if all seven channels are pulling the most power they can, evenly, you're going to get about 35 watts each (still assuming you get to use all of those 250 watts, which you won't.) A better continuous (similar to RMS) power estimate can be made from the known 88% value derived from the stereo output (220 watts) divided by the number of channels, for about 31.4 watts per channel in this case.

Whenever you are looking at a receiver or multichannel amplifier with a concern about ultimate output power, there are usually three things to look at. The first is the power the amplifiers are capable of delivering to a speaker. The second is how many channels can actually do that at the same time (the answer to that is almost always two.) The third is the maximum input power that the unit will pull from the wall. This last value tells you the absolute most you can expect from your unit at one time. You can divide it up any way you want - if you have two hundred watts available, it might go out as 100 watts on each of two channels, or as 50 watts on each of four channels, or as 28 watts on each of seven channels.

Keep in mind that the power input to the receiver is a little bit higher -- always -- than the amount available for audio. From the power input to the receiver from the wall socket, it also has to run its preamps, digital circuitry, relays, displays, etc. Then finally, audio amplifiers are not 100% efficient, and 100 watts fed to one does not quite result in 100 watts ending up at the speaker terminals.

Program material doesn't often make high power demands on all channels at once -- that is why the manufacturers can get away with putting what are really pretty anemic power supplies in these multi-amplifier units. As long as they make sure it works in stereo, which is the most common listening mode for high powered music, they can satisfy most consumers.

There's one more monkey wrench here -- and that is that some receivers use large capacitors to store additional energy for momentary power surges. So if there's a huge power hit, it might be that this will indeed get out to all the speakers it is supposed to -- but this also means that for the next few seconds, the receiver will be very short of power reserves, that is, it won't be able to deliver another high power hit again for a few seconds, or even longer, depending on the size of the power supply.

In the end, this is why those knowledgeable about, and concerned with, continuous output power choose to go with a pile of stereo amplifiers that are rated to be able to deliver the full output power of both channels at once, or with monoblocks, which of course always can deliver their rated power (when there's only one channel, it's a lot more difficult to write confusing specifications for a monoblock. For example, when a monoblock such as a Marantz MA-500 claims it will deliver 125 watts RMS, that's pretty much the end of the story.)

So beware of power output claims on multi-channel amplifiers and receivers. Things are not at all what they seem.

These decisions were a lot easier for the consumer when there were rules about output power claims. Used to be, a manufacturer had to rate the output power of multiple channel amplifiers as the amount of power all channels could deliver at the same time for one hour without overheating, and without changing output THD. I miss those days, I really do.

--Ben

Ok, first, they're not lying -- they're being tricky. The information you need is there; but it isn't obvious. It's not very nice, but it isn't quite dishonest. Like most things, if you're an informed consumer, you can figure out what you need to figure out. I'm not defending the practice, but I will say that they aren't flat out lying.

In answer to your question, no, they generally don't lie about what speakers can withstand, as long as you make sure you're comparing apples with apples, by which I mean RMS with RMS, peak with peak, and so on. A 100 watt RMS rating is not the same as a 100 watt peak rating... it's only the same as another 100 watt RMS rating.

But as almost always in audio, the answer really isn't that simple.

One thing that is no longer disclosed is how long a speaker can operate at its fully rated power. This is important because the voice coils in a standard technology speaker warm up quite fast when high power is applied to them, and while the speaker can generate the proper sound output while this is going on, you can still burn the insulation right off the voice coil and/or crossover inductors, melt the wires, and in general cause quite the mess once enough heat builds up.

Another thing is that the power rating of the amplifier is usually taken at 1 KHz; but the amplifier can probably generate that same amount of power at any frequency within its operating range. However, a speaker's power rating is for "general program material", which is a fancy way of saying that they expect lots of power in the bass, a moderate amount in the midrange, and not very much at all at high frequencies. So if you try to push 300 watts of reproduction into your speaker of nothing but a "sizzler" cymbal or a symphony triangle, for instance, you're going to burn out your tweeter and/or supertweeter... even if the speaker is rated for 300 watts. They mean 300 watts of mixed tones in the average way they are usually mixed. They don't mean 300 watts in just one portion of the audio spectrum.

A stand-alone subwoofer is an exception to this, because it only takes in one portion of the spectrum, and so when they say 300 watts there, that's exactly what they mean, no fooling. I'd still be careful about long periods of applying full power. In most speaker designs, heat can't escape very quickly, and this causes it to build up right where you don't want it. It is quite common for powered subwoofer manufacturers to provide a heat sink for the subwoofer amplifier, but not for the sub's actual voice coil. To be fair, it's difficult to do. For what it's worth, a ported subwoofer generally withstands high temperatures better, because it gets to exchange a bit of the hot air inside for cooler outside air with every stroke of the driver; this helps remove heat from the voice coil, and so keeps things a bit cooler. Some designs use the speaker motion to pump air right past the voice coil, but there's a limit to that as well because it makes noise, and no one wants to hear the sub going "whoosh! whoosh!" Others move the heat into the metal framework that holds the speaker surface, which allows it to spread out more rather than concentrating in the voice coil, but eventually in a sealed box, even that can get too hot.

You also don't want to under-power a speaker system with multiple drivers and one or more crossovers -- you can kill it that way. The reason why is that an amplifier can produce output spikes that far exceed its rated power when it goes into distortion. These spikes are usually very fast, that is, they're equivalent to a high frequency pulse, so they get routed to the tweeter(s), which, as I described above, aren't generally capable of dealing with high power, because that's not normal for music, etc. So the tweeters get hit with these distorted pulses, and they burn out, usually very quickly. A clear indicator that you may be using an underpowered amplifier and driving it into distortion is finding your tweeters burned out. So you want an amplifier that can produce as much, or even more, than the speaker is rated for.

It is less common to see damage from an amp that momentarily puts, for instance, 110 watts of normal, undistorted program material into a 100 watt speaker, than it is from a 50 watt amp that, because it is driven into distortion, throws 50 watts or more directly into the tweeter as a supersonic noise pulse.

So with all that in mind, here's my take on amp power as it relates to speakers:

The best match in the power sense is an amplifier that can produce the speaker's rated power, or more, so it is never driven into distortion, matched with a conservative hand on the volume control so that the speaker voice coils are not overheated.

From there, we get into speaker questions of THD, efficiency, radiation angle, impedance, damping factor interaction (especially with tube amps), phase accuracy, maximum driver throw, driver stiffness, radiation angles, resonance, frequency response... oh, believe me, there's endless entertainment there for the audio obsessed like myself.

Hi Andrew,

Not Ben but I believe I can answer your questions.

First, there is no reason to spend tons of money on speaker wire. The only difference it will make is your pocketbook will be lighter.

Second, you need power, lots and lots of power, to push that 15 inch woofer. This is why the power to the subwoofer is usually offloaded to an external amp. For example, I have 1000 watts pushing my twin 12" sub. Changing anything about the speaker will do very little to make it better, IMO. Do you have the speakers set as 'large' in your Sony?



@Ben - Nice posts. You take your time and explain things nicely.

Andrew,

Don't over think this.

Very rarely will you ever need the full power to the side or rear surrounds. Also it is rare to need all of the power to the fronts. Most of the time you will be humming along with only a few watts to each channel. When big power is needed, it is generally only needed in one or 2 channels at a time and most of the power is needed for the low frequencies. This is why having a separate subwoofer with its own amp is recommended (while keeping your other channels set to "small" or 'crossed over").

So with the sub amp handling the really hard work, the AVR amp does not really need to be super powerful. Most any modern AVR will handle most situations without breaking a sweat. Its only when you do things like set your speakers to "large" and expect them to produce the bass that a subwoofer should be handling that you get in trouble.

FYI - "Small" and "large" have nothing to do with the size of the speakers. Small means bass managed, large means full range. Either you set the speakers to small and re-route some of the bass to the subwoofer or you set them to large and they play everything.

Many college students go for speakers like Cerwin Vega. The sound is not so great, but they can get very loud and very 'boomy'.

When you say music is a priority, CV and Sony do not come to mind I have a pair of 8" CVs for the garage and I actually like them. By no means are they great for critical listening, but they do just fine for general music listening.