11.4 system

My opinion is that if 13 speakers in a room that small doesn't sound muddied to you, why stop there?  Add the extra subwoofers and enjoy.

 

Though, technically speaking, the "5.1" or "7.1" notations refer to the number of discrete encoded audio channels, NOT the number of speakers.  In your system, it's still 5.1 or 7.1 - all the extra channels are either "extrapolated" from the mains (the front highs and wides), or in the case of the extra subwoofers, the same mono signal is being passed to multiple subwoofers.

 

Unfortunately, we have A/V receiver marketing departments to thank for making people think otherwise.

I assume you aren't buying your sub cables from Monoprice.com.

For the price of your four subs you could have gotten something like an SVS Ultra and been done with it.

I'm not really into the whole 5.1 or 7.1 with extra speakers thing yet, but I do appreciate subwoofer quality and IMO you could easily have bought an SVS SB12-NSD $670 and had a much better low range. However, if you're intent on going for the 11.4 system, then go for it, try out the extra subs. I agree with jason; if you don't think it sounds muddy or cluttered and you don't mind doing the extra wiring, go for it. Robert brings up a good point too, the cables shouldn't cost very much (esp. not anywhere close to $60). I always like to bring up the example of the Home Depot brand extension power chord outfitted with RCA ends getting 2nd place in a blind listening test at a recent audio equipment convention. Moral of the story: keep your cables cheap!

The larger room is certainly a better space to use all those speakers, however, you must have posted the wrong pictures, too.  That room really can't possibly be much bigger than 12-14' square.

 

The next time you shop for cables, give Monoprice.com a try.  They have a 50' CL-2, RG-6 cable for ten bucks.  No real need to spend much more than that.

 

As for the extra subs, yes, they provide a lot more headroom and SPL, and can help eliminate nulls and other dead areas in your space (which can be a HUGE improvement if your initial placement was less than ideal), but adding subs doesn't get you any lower.  That's where, IMO, I would rather put my money.  For me, the impact (no pun intended) is much higher when you can feel the bass rather than hear it.  The SVS subs get you into the sub 20Hz range which can really add a lot of "punch" to movies.

 

But different strokes for different folks.  The important thing is that you're happy with the setup - and that price for the Klipsch subs is a good deal, don't get me wrong.

 

Hope it all works out for you.

You might want to consider these:

ED A5s - 300
HSU VTF-2 MK4

Both Elemental Designs and HSU put out great subs, Dayton also makes good subs that are more affordable sometimes. If you think you'd be up to the task, you coud also think about building your own, since this can often be cheaper for the quality of the components you get. Robert_J knows quite a bit about DIY subs, maybe he'll chime in on this point, give you some idea of the cost/benefit of it all.

However, I'm still going to posit that the SVS SB12-NSD is an incredible sub and two in a room could easily outperform four lower end subs in every respect.

i would consider building your own

I second that. After looking at Mike's prospective specs on a DIY, you'd probably be better off doing a DIY sub for less than the SVS if you want to do two. However, if you did two DIY subs, I'd say that you'd want to stop there and not do four because you're going to get a mixture of voices (from four subs) that won't necessarily mesh very well.

I haven't personally heard the Rhythmik sub, but I've heard good things about it.

The PB12-NSD is ported, so it's going to outperform the SB12-NSD in terms of volume. But they use the same 12" driver and Sledge 400W amp, so the sound quality is basically the same. If you think you need the extra volume, then definitely go for the PB12-NSD.

If you're looking at DIY then look at this thread:
Need design help and advice building sub enclosure

Robert_J puts some good links to products. I'm not entirely sure on the quality comparison to the PB12-NSD, but you might be able to get close. It's just hard to keep things small when you do a DIY sub, so if you end up doing DIY, know that you'll be building something fairly large.

According to Atlantic your room is right on the line between a small and medium (15x15x8=1800 cubic feet), so any of their speakers would work.  I have the 8200e speakers and love them.  For a past get together we used the 4400 line and they sounded great.  One of the other owners here has their HPAS tower speakers and loves them, so I don't think you can go wrong with any of them.  I may be in the minority, but I think sometimes just throwing subs at a room can make it sound a bit more muddy as they can impact each other.  Start with a good quality, deep bass sub and that will have a huge impact on the overall experience.

 

http://www.atlantictechnology.com/default.asp?IsDev=False&NodeId=96
 

 

The paper cone on the Rhythmik FV-12 sub would make me inclined to say any SVS would be higher quality, but then if you're looking at a price range around $800 (the PB12) then there are more options.

Rhythmik F12 (sealed 12")
HSU VTF-3 MK4 (even though the VTF-2 would also be very good and the VTF-3 might be too loud)
Elemental Designs A5 - 350 (ported 15")
B&W ASW610 (sealed 10")
And there are others if you look around the forum.

What is your budget per sub? Also, what is your plan as of right now? Still doing four subs? You'd most likely end up with better sounding low end if you just used two identical subs.

Agreed. I don't think having four subs in a 15' room could possibly sound good. I would invest in a higher quality single sub method rather than throw two more lower quality, cheaper subs into the room. With a room that size, two subs are going to give you about as linear a sound as you could get.

You'd probably be much better off getting one of the ones I mentioned above for around that price range and then save up for a second. I can't imagine it sounds that unbalanced with just one sub, and I definitely think it wouldn't sound unbalanced with a better sub placed well in a solid corner.

For your price, I'd absolutely throw the extra $70 in and get the SB12-NSD. Put two of those in any room under 20' and you'll have all the volume you want with no balancing issues. The next best would be the PB12-NSD, but is another $100 on top of the SB you don't seem willing to spend, correct?

Your receiver is getting hot because you've added multiple speakers to the output channels and thus lowered the resistance to each channel to a point where it's now overheating.

I'd say, if it makes an audible difference to you when using only one sub, then go for two! If you can, though, maybe budget yourself around $300-350 per sub and get something from Dayton, or Lava Sub, or ED, or HSU maybe? From what you've said about the Klipsch sub, it's clear your not impressed, and if nothing else, the subwoofer component of any system should impress you. If you think the Klipsch subs will be fine for your needs, then stick with them!

As per the question about using the P300HDs, I'm having a hard time imagining that four subs would do you any good in a room that size because the front subs will bounce sound off the back wall with enough power remaining to make the rear reflex of the room audible. If you set up your front Klipsch (or whatever you go with) subs in the right position, then extra subs in the back (especially different brand subs) might clash frequencies near the middle of the room and really hurt the soundstage of your system in the lower range. I've experienced this in a friends apartment and it sounds terrible, audibly terrible. I really think a couple of good subs in the front will satisfy your need for linear sound.

With regards to the comment about experience and wisdom and all that, really it's about how much time you're willing to spend simply learning the trade of crafting HT systems, not about how many systems you've built in your day. If you have the motivation to get what you want and KNOW what it is that you want, you will achieve it! I personally have only built ONE basic system, but took about six months of research to do so. But I understand enough about sound reproduction and speakers to give what little advice I can about some lower end to mid range speakers and subs. Stick with it and you too will get more and more comfortable and knowledgable about sound.

P.S. Sooner or later, like me, you might even get into DIY subs and speakers and then really gain significant knowledge about this stuff (haha). I felt like I was starting from the beginning again when I ventured into DIY speakers.

Joe,

 

How are you going about calibrating your system, and have you tried adjusting the subwoofer placement much to try and even out your in-room response?

 

I ask because you really seem hell-bent on getting two mid-priced subwoofers as opposed to a single higher-end model.  I'm of the school of thought that less can be more, and would rather get a single excellent sub than multiple good subs.  If you haven't done a true level calibration or tried plotting your frequency response with an SPL meter and any of the free tools online, I think you owe it to yourself to try these before plunking down some serious change on any new equipment - whether it's one or two subs.

 

A single subwoofer, properly calibrated and placed with at least some consideration for room geometry should never sound "obviously" unbalanced - especially for the primary seating position.  When you start talking about widening the "sweet spot" and wanting to hear reference levels at all locations in the room, then that gets challenging and the benefit of multiple subs becomes a bit more apparent.

 

Also, with respect to subwoofer placement - It looks like you have two subs placed in the front corners, and if you're considering bumping up to 4(!) subs, I'm guessing your plan is to put them in the other two corners.  The problem with that is if one corner placement is creating any sort of null near the primary listening position, adding three more subwoofers in symetrically opposite corners isn't going to solve the problem - if anything it will make it seem MORE unbalanced.  If you're going to use multiple subwoofers in an effort to eliminate nulls, then asymmetrical placement is the general approach you need to take.

 

Have you heard of the "crawl" method for subwoofer placement?  Basically, put the subwoofer where you mostly sit, play something with lots of bass, and crawl around the room to find the place where the bass sounds the best.  Put the subwoofer there.  That works remarkably well with single subwoofer setups.

 

Good luck.

Joe,

I absolutely agree with Jason here. The "crawl" method, in my opinion, is the only thing that works in some cases. I know it worked for me in a hardwood floored room, so it should work for you.

Also, Jason is right on the multiple subs method. If you have one good subwoofer set up in the right position, adding a second sub regardless of positioning, WILL hurt the overall sound of the room.

Try the crawl method with the one Klipsch sub and see if you can find the sweet spot in the room. If you absolutely can't find a sweet spot (in any room under about 20' there IS a sweet spot, it's just sometimes smaller than in other sized and shaped rooms) THEN think about a second sub.

I understand your want for symmetry, but that doesn't always relate to multiple subs helping to balance out the room, often one sub can make a rooms response perfectly symmetrical.

Looks like a solid list. The VTF-3 would honestly probably produce TOO much volume with the same sound qualities of the VTF-2, which would go as loud as you'd ever want. I'd be inclined to say the SVS PB12-NSD would outperform the ED A5 - 350 simply because of the Sledge amp and the driver on the SVS being the best I've heard under $1000, but both are around $800 which seems possibly out your implied price range ($500 per sub, correct?). The SB12-NSD would, for the same reasons, outperform the ED A5-300. I haven't personally heard the Rhythmik, but I doubt it would perform on par with the SVS PB12-NSD (for the same price) because the SVS is ported and the Rhythmik isn't. B&W I wouldn't go for because it's a 10" sub and you seem to want more ground shaking than that could probably provide.

If possible, audition the SVS and ED subs, and maybe look at Swan and Epik. SVS can sometimes send out a demo so you can audition the sub. Not sure about ED, but you might want to give them a call to find out.

P.S. When you say speakers, you mean subwoofers, correct? Also consider that the HSU subs are the only downfiring subs on your list and that would certainly effect the sound of the room.