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A few words about...™ West Side Story -- in Blu-ray - Page 23

post #661 of 724
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyD View Post

Welcome to the forum Lark. btw what exactly do you think raping and pillaging means exactly, especially the raping part?


The archaic meaning, which is the way that I took Lark's reference, was the dictionary meaning of "seizing or carrying off by force."  There is also violent seizure, despoliation, etc, which have nothing to do with sexual references.

 

RAH

 

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #662 of 724
I get that but to me raping means one thing.
Anyway this topic is so far off topic maybe it should be put on hold until real news comes about.
post #663 of 724
My, my such heated emotions. I find it very interesting how passionate film-lovers can be about their beloved films. It's true that the ball was dropped on West Side Story and My Fair Lady and they failed to deliver Blu-rays that are "the best that they can be." However I can remember not too many years back when there were all kinds of botch jobs on VHS and Laserdisc and while I'm sure there were fans (like me) who noticed, we just accepted them because we didn't really feel we had a voice in the matter. Of course the difference is that there was no Internet back then. Here are just a few of the problems I noticed on early Laserdiscs: The widescreen Star Wars had a fluctuating aspect ratio. Gigi's AR was about 2.10:1 and it was squeezed, not cropped. Side 4 on Gone with the Wind (CLV edition) was defective (on all pressings) with a fuzzy picture. The last hour or so King of Kings was mono that had been stereo synthesized (the movie up to that point had been true stereo). Funny Girl also had an entire song that was "fake stereo".
post #664 of 724
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark-P View Post

My, my such heated emotions. I find it very interesting how passionate film-lovers can be about their beloved films. It's true that the ball was dropped on West Side Story and My Fair Lady and they failed to deliver Blu-rays that are "the best that they can be." However I can remember not too many years back when there were all kinds of botch jobs on VHS and Laserdisc and while I'm sure there were fans (like me) who noticed, we just accepted them because we didn't really feel we had a voice in the matter. Of course the difference is that there was no Internet back then. Here are just a few of the problems I noticed on early Laserdiscs: The widescreen Star Wars had a fluctuating aspect ratio. Gigi's AR was about 2.10:1 and it was squeezed, not cropped. Side 4 on Gone with the Wind (CLV edition) was defective (on all pressings) with a fuzzy picture. The last hour or so King of Kings was mono that had been stereo synthesized (the movie up to that point had been true stereo). Funny Girl also had an entire song that was "fake stereo".

Well, there you go. But if it's LD, then it was the early days of home video. Blu-ray is--in many cases--at least the fourth go-round for many of these classic films on home video. In some cases, it's more like the 6th or 7th home video edition. So you'd think that if home video has been popular for roughly 30 years, that by now they'd get it right...!

I mean, I can put up with (choose to ignore) the flaws in WSS, but MFL is a different matter--it's basically just an upconvert from a dvd that came out years ago. A film of that magnitude deserves a state-of-the-art remastering and pressing--every time--to bring it to the video standards of the day. What worked 20 years ago is not acceptable/presentable in today's hi-def market. And every time I think of what they did to it, I cringe.

And the hits just keep on coming...For every flawless, superb blu-ray of a classic film they put out, they also put out about five others that are crap. I don't get it.
post #665 of 724

Actually, there are some scenes in MFL that are worse than the dvd, as far as the fading and colors are concerned.

post #666 of 724
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark-P View Post

My, my such heated emotions. I find it very interesting how passionate film-lovers can be about their beloved films. It's true that the ball was dropped on West Side Story and My Fair Lady and they failed to deliver Blu-rays that are "the best that they can be." However I can remember not too many years back when there were all kinds of botch jobs on VHS and Laserdisc and while I'm sure there were fans (like me) who noticed, we just accepted them because we didn't really feel we had a voice in the matter. Of course the difference is that there was no Internet back then. Here are just a few of the problems I noticed on early Laserdiscs: The widescreen Star Wars had a fluctuating aspect ratio. Gigi's AR was about 2.10:1 and it was squeezed, not cropped. Side 4 on Gone with the Wind (CLV edition) was defective (on all pressings) with a fuzzy picture. The last hour or so King of Kings was mono that had been stereo synthesized (the movie up to that point had been true stereo). Funny Girl also had an entire song that was "fake stereo".

Well, some of us might have accepted botch jobs because we didn't feel we had a voice in the matter, but a small and highly vocal minority demanded something better. Thankfully. And, as you say, the Internet helps. I remember when I was considered a loony fringe zealot among my movie fan friends because I considered a pan-and-scan version of a widescreen movie on VHS or Laserdisc to be a botched transfer of it. The anti-pan-and-scan/pro-letterbox movement began with a small but vocal minority that was largely dismissed for what seemed like forever. We spent hours trying to make our point. Now, I can't imagine a majority rejecting original aspect ratios for pan-and-scan in their home video media.

The solutions to that and the problems you mentioned were hard fought and won victories for home video enthusiasts. We get really, really rankled when we see laziness or incompetence taking back some of those victories.
post #667 of 724
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Weicker View Post

I'm a little confused by this comment.
As far as I've read, there are five problems:
1) the transition between the overture and the main title
2) the sound position of the opening whistles
3) the opticals now standing out from the main picture
4) audio not being the original 6-track
5) some jitter during the initial overhead shot of NY.
I don't believe any other errors were reported.
According to your initial posting (that was revised several times), you weren't sure that (5 was new to this release or not. For (4, even without the original audio, "the audio is superb". For (2, it wasn't a big deal and something you can live with.
Which leaves us with two errors - the Fade and the Opticals.
Now as for the Fade - how 'major' a flaw this is in dispute (and can not be decided here). It is a flaw, but it should be noted that in your initial post (which doesn't exist since the revisions), it wasn't something you mentioned or perhaps even noticed. To equate that with not having birds in The Birds is a bit of a stretch.
Which leaves us the Opticals. On my own viewing, I sensed there was a picture change, but it wasn't enough to take me out of the moment I was enjoying (anymore than lighting changes or camera effects or soft focus does). And are these opticals actually worse than prior releases, or do they just stand out more because the picture on either side of them is so much more improved? And since these scenes still exists, to equate them with a birdless The Birds also seems a bit much.
On another note, I don't happen to like the implication that those of us who enjoy this Blu-Ray, even with its flaws "have no concept or appreciation of the art of the cinema". That might not have been your intention, but that is the way I interpreted your comment.
David

It is a major flaw (the overture) and it can be decided here by those who actually know this film, which, apparently, doesn't include you. Mr. Harris said from the get-go that the flaw was there. He said it vociferously, as did I. I was the first to get this disc from the UK and the first to call out the flaw. I called Mr. Harris and told him about it. He then saw it with his own eyes. The studio obviously knew it was in the wrong, but in trying to make that wrong right, they actually made it worse. And it all has to do with something being transferred incorrectly whenever this transfer was done - the colors in the overture are not quite accurate, then there is the flaw, now there is a band-aid on the flaw - the original flaw was most certainly to cover up the green frames that were in the last DVD transfer. In "fixing" that, a smidgen of the green frame has returned. There is NO green in the overture. None. I'm glad you don't have a problem with it. But you keep coming back and trying to convince everyone that this isn't a problem - and it IS a problem. As I've repeatedly said, and which you dance around, if something like this happened in a film you knew very well (I don't know how old you are - if I did I could just pick a film and create an example for you) you would not be happy about it. We've given several examples of things that could happen to other classic films, and you keep saying they're just hypothetical and not commensurate with this flaw in West Side Story. Well, that's not the way it works, I'm afraid. The end of Casablanca: Louis and Rick are walking away from camera. You're waiting for the film's famous final line. Oops, some transfer person inadvertently left it out, BUT the rest of the transfer looks GREAT. So, no problem right?

Or, let's take a classic Hitchcock main title done by - why, Mr. Bass. North by Northwest. You've just settled down to watch - the MGM lion comes on - it is in full color. The main titles begin and the color is red. What's wrong with this picture? Well, the MGM lion should be GREEN not in full color, and the title background should be GREEN not red. But the rest of the transfer looks GREAT so Mr. Bass's art be damned. Who cares anyway, it's just the main titles. Right?
post #668 of 724
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyD View Post

I get that but to me raping means one thing.
Anyway this topic is so far off topic maybe it should be put on hold until real news comes about.

But that is your problem, not the original posters. It was VERY clear which form of the word he was using. Shall we now change the title of The Rape of the Sabine Women? The Rape of the Lock? Sorry, but this particular word has more than one meaning. I understand we live in oh so sensitive times, but no one here was being disrespectful when using the word in the context it was being used in.
post #669 of 724
I wasnt the person who asked not to use the word, that was someone else. All I did was say what it means to me.
post #670 of 724
You know,

I'm sorry now, I contributed to this forum.

I'm sorry that my ability to enjoy flawed, imperfect presentations of movies annoys you so much. I grew up and gained my love of movies by watching them on TV. Many was the night I stayed up to watch the late late show to see blobby, out-of-focus, actors speaking great lines, singing wonderful songs, dancing sprightly steps - broken up by commercials and possibly missing the sides of the picture or even complete scenes. Its an imperfect world, but there is a lot to be gained by enjoying what we do have.

I thought we could all have an opinion here, but apparently that isn't the case.

You are right.
post #671 of 724

Let's remain calm and respectful, everyone.

 

There's plenty of room at the HTF for differing opinions.  We'll accept them all as long as they are presented in a civil manner.

 

Quote:
Discussions on this forum are polite, cordial and respectful. We do not hesitate to express our opinion on matters involved, knowing other members may or may not share those opinions. We will always respect opinions of other members, even if we do not share a particular opinion ourselves. We will not verbally attack other members in a personal way, but instead try to contribute to the common knowledge about, and understanding of all applicable topics discussed.

 

post #672 of 724
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Weicker View Post

You know,
I'm sorry now, I contributed to this forum.
I'm sorry that my ability to enjoy flawed, imperfect presentations of movies annoys you so much. I grew up and gained my love of movies by watching them on TV. Many was the night I stayed up to watch the late late show to see blobby, out-of-focus, actors speaking great lines, singing wonderful songs, dancing sprightly steps - broken up by commercials and possibly missing the sides of the picture or even complete scenes. Its an imperfect world, but there is a lot to be gained by enjoying what we do have.
I thought we could all have an opinion here, but apparently that isn't the case.
You are right.

You are completely entitled to your opinion, just as others are completely entitled to take exception to it and present their side. If you'd stated your opinion once, folks would have replied once. But when you keep stating it, then people who don't agree will keep responding, just to keep ALL points of view in the discussion. Blu-ray isn't TV. It isn't laserdisc or VHS or Betamax or DVD. It is supposed to be the optimal presentation of a motion picture (or TV show or whatever). Studios that take the time to treat their assets as they should be treated, and therefore deliver to the consumer amazing transfers are to be applauded - daily. The studios who think they can put out less than stellar work when they absolutely have the ability to do stellar work, well, I don't happen to think they should be applauded. If they've done the absolute best they can do, I'm ready with praise, even if there are flaws. But that isn't the case with West Side Story. They have clearly NOT done the best they can do and therein lies the problem.

I would hope you'd stay around and post in other threads with other opinions on things.
post #673 of 724
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Weicker View Post

You know,
I'm sorry now, I contributed to this forum.
I'm sorry that my ability to enjoy flawed, imperfect presentations of movies annoys you so much. I grew up and gained my love of movies by watching them on TV. Many was the night I stayed up to watch the late late show to see blobby, out-of-focus, actors speaking great lines, singing wonderful songs, dancing sprightly steps - broken up by commercials and possibly missing the sides of the picture or even complete scenes. Its an imperfect world, but there is a lot to be gained by enjoying what we do have.
I thought we could all have an opinion here, but apparently that isn't the case.
You are right.



You're spending your monies not theirs and as long as you're happy with this BRD despite its flaws then that's the only opinion that should really matter to you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Crawdaddy

 

post #674 of 724
David,

I hear where you're coming from. I remember being thrilled when my local station ran a musical I hadn't seen in ages, "The King and I", in the mid 1970s in a blurry, grainy panned and scanned 16mm print, loaded with commercials and spread over two afternoons. I never dreamed that the film still existed in CinemaScope 55. As a kid, I assumed that once a film hit local television, it had reached the end of its shelf life and all those gorgeous images we saw in theatres were now memories residing in whatever battered prints may still be left lying around on projector room floors. That's why I was once again thrilled when titles like "West Side Story" and "The King and I" came out in -- gasp -- stereo transfers on laserdisc, years before VHS had that capability. They kept those stereo tracks?!! Even though these films were now 16mm fodder for selling cars on local TV at midnight?

In the video era, as a young adult, I put up with panned and scanned transfers and took what the studios gave us. But DVD and now BluRay have pushed the envelope and the whole idea of owning a film has reached a new level. The bar has been raised. Drastically so. This BluRay may be the last transfer of "West Side Story" available in a physical format. As such, it deserves if not perfection, certainly to free of sloppy, shoddy work as found here.

Personally, for me, it's frustrating and aggravating, but like David it's not a deal-breaker for me because the transfer as a whole is lovely and the DVD's sync problems which aggravate me far more than the fade-out have been fixed. I bought it and I'm not returning it because I'm one of the unwashed masses who will say "it's better than the DVD" and priced cheaply enough to warrant an upgrade.

But BluRay is not DVD. We should demand something akin to what we saw in reserved seat engagements back in 1961 because we can. I'd happily pay twice what I paid for "West Side Story" for a release that did justice to this crown jewel in the United Artists catalog. Hooray to those who demand perfection. If it weren't for them, we'd still be watching VHS quality transfers.

Hopefully, when MGM gets back on its feet or sells its assets to someone who cares, they'll do right by "West Side Story."
Edited by Rob_Ray - 2/23/12 at 8:16am
post #675 of 724
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eric scott richard View Post

Actually, there are some scenes in MFL that are worse than the dvd, as far as the fading and colors are concerned.


True.  Because at 480i, it was far less obvious.

 

RAH

 

post #676 of 724
Thread Starter 

I'm going to bring up something that I've suggested in the past, but apparently cannot be performed.

 

One of the major problems with the Blu-ray format is its ability to properly replicate the look and texture of the cinema in a home theater environment.  It can do this better than many a 16mm print from an original release, and within certain parameters of size, can hold its own against a properly struck 35mm print.  And all on a tiny disc, and without scratches, splices, jitter or bob and weave.  All within a 1920 x 1080 format.

 

Blu-ray, much like HD, was sold to the public for this purpose.

 

And many, many home theater enthusiasts have become fans of the format.

 

But Blu-ray is very much a two-edged blade.  It has the ability to expose a film's technical deficiencies.

 

Encode it with something that is properly prepared, from a correctly selected element, and with image and audio handled in the correct manner, and we have something really remarkable -- that look and feel of cinema.

 

I've referred to Blu-ray as a "bucket," which is what it is.

 

It can be filled with anything.  Still photographs, music, or alternatively, motion pictures, whether they be sourced from a scratched and splice-ridden 16mm dupe intended for VHS, or from an original 65mm negative, with an image properly harvested at 8k.

 

It is what it is.

 

In the early days of Blu-ray, which aren't long ago, errors were made, as the studios learned how to use the format.  WB mistakenly used some 1080i masters, and then quickly set about pulling titles from the release schedule, and replacing with 1080p.  We would (and still do) see window-boxed main titles, without necessity. Audio formats occasionally get reversed.  Errors occur.  Growing pains.

 

Titles such as The Gangs of New York, Patton, The Longest Day were released, as studio execs were sold snake oil by vendors who proclaimed that they could get rid of the grain that was inherent in all "old" films, which was the destroyer of images, especially in the days of 480i, making compression difficult.  Vendors sold their wares, and actually got unwary execs to believe that they could take an old transfer, run it through proprietary software, and out would come a perfect 1080p HD master, which would turn on the kudo machine when seen by the public.

 

This situation was not necessarily based upon execs attempting to short-cut the system, or not spend the funds necessary to create proper transfers.  These vendors were paid well for their snake oil.

 

As far as I can tell, only a single recent Blu-ray fits into the category of "let's spend nothing," or "let's see if we can pull one over on the public," and that would unfortunately be that disc that should have been lovelier than ever.

 

With that singular exception, most recent problems come from negligence.  QC people, if there are QC people, not knowing what a film is supposed to look like, as opposed to simply QCing to make certain that audio does not disappear for a minute or two, or that odd digital patterns do not run down the center of an image.

 

It seems that the concept of having a human who actually knows the product being QC'd is a novel event for some.

 

You won't find this occurring at Columbia, or Fox, as they have set up their corporate functions so that real eyes view product before it is approved, beginning with the selection of elements, and ending with approval of a Blu-ray disc.

 

Let's return to the point that I mentioned at the start of this piece.

 

What I had suggested several years ago, was some sort of situation similar to "No wine before its time," or "The quality goes in before our logo goes on."

 

Some mechanism within the Blu-ray marketing and licensing arena, which would prevent situations such as those with West Side Story from occurring.  Some sort of overall quality control for the bucket.  Lucasfilm used to have TAP, which was a very workable organization. making certain that theatres were technically up to snuff before a major release went into the field.  We used them for several 70mm releases, and the results were generally always positive.  They were a force (no pun intended) actually visiting venues, checking equipment for sound and image quality, and sitting and viewing every print before it was shipped.  They were dis-enablers of potential problems.  And they still have my gratitude.

 

How can this affect Blu-ray?

 

I'm not certain that it can, as the format is out there in the wild, available for use by anyone who wishes to use it.

 

The problem is that all those Blu-ray "buckets" can be filled with either rocks or glory, and sometimes a bit of both.

 

So that concept would seem unworkable.

 

There is no Blu-ray Board of Examiners, checking film-based releases.  DI-based productions should not need it.

 

The only other means of getting things correct is to somehow restrain the release of product that falls below standards with proper education at the studio level.  But let's be honest.  What 25 year-old doing QC actually knows what a film like West Side Story looks like.  Anyone?  This is where Fox and Columbia have their act together.

 

This means that those above need to do proper due diligence, actually pulling an original print, creating a properly prepared continuity, having elements examined by people who know precisely what those tiny scribe marks outboard of the perforations on original negatives mean, and then relating them to the continuity and to that properly anointed reference print.

 

If all of that is done, a major release, the cost of which should be in decent six figures, will come out the other end with all of its quality intact.  In the end, this is the easiest and least expensive means of getting a quality Blu-ray out to the public.  The other problem, of course, is that a major classic release should begin with newly sourced data.  Old data can only lead to problems.

 

None of this is terribly difficult.  Nor terribly expensive.

 

"It's only a matter of going."

 

RAH

 

 

post #677 of 724
I also had a bad experience with an idiotic audience member at a screening of WSS in NYC several years ago. As we all know, the transition between dialogue and singing in that movie is handled very skillfully; in fact, that's one of the movie's greatest triumphs. Still, this one stupid asshole at the screening kept giggling every time someone started singing, as if to prove how superior his sensibility was to the musical film genre. I usually confront morons like this afterwards, but for some reason, I didn't on this occasion. If I had done so, what I would have said was, "Umm, you're at a screening of WEST SIDE STORY. Did you not know it was a musical? Next time, please stay home, you stupid fool."
post #678 of 724
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael1 View Post

I also had a bad experience with an idiotic audience member at a screening of WSS in NYC several years ago. As we all know, the transition between dialogue and singing in that movie is handled very skillfully; in fact, that's one of the movie's greatest triumphs. Still, this one stupid asshole at the screening kept giggling every time someone started singing, as if to prove how superior his sensibility was to the musical film genre. I usually confront morons like this afterwards, but for some reason, I didn't on this occasion. If I had done so, what I would have said was, "Umm, you're at a screening of WEST SIDE STORY. Did you not know it was a musical? Next time, please stay home, you stupid fool."

That happened when I saw it on Capitol Hill in Seattle back in, oh, 1998 or so. I should have known when, during the whistles at the opening of the film, someone in the audience was whistling back. And then EVERY time characters broke into song, there were giggles. They laughed at the rape scene. They were on the floor during "A Boy Like That" and "I Have a Love." It was horrible. I almost walked out.

Younger Seattle audiences can be like that -- very young, "think they're hip" audiences that believe they know all about film but really don't, because the only films they know anything about are "Citizen Kane" and any Tarantino movie. (I was born and raised in Seattle -- I feel have the right to say that.) It was in Seattle in the University district where I witnessed the mostly college-age crowd break into laughter at Clean shooting the boat up in "Apocalypse Now." Hate 'em. I suppose the younger crowd can be like that anywhere.

But seeing "West Side Story" in downtown Seattle, where the crowd skewed a little older, was a great experience. No inappropriate laughter, totally got into the spirit and style of the film. Didn't have the "think I'm hip" college age crowd at that one. (Which is absolutely hilarious, because after living in Los Angeles for 12 years I can say unequivocally that no one outside of Washington state pays any attention to Seattle at all. It's not even on the radar as an important city.)
post #679 of 724
I guess Fox puts a lot of care into the product that they actually own, but don't give a rat's ass about the stuff they merely distribute, as in the title that this thread is all about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris View Post

You won't find this occurring at Columbia, or Fox, as they have set up their corporate functions so that real eyes view product before it is approved, beginning with the selection of elements, and ending with approval of a Blu-ray disc.

RAH
post #680 of 724
"Maybe MGM will license [WEST SIDE STORY] out to Criterion - they released WSS before."

But I distinctly recall that the Criterion LD of WSS was missing several frames -- as I remember, it may have been as much as 10 or 15 seconds of film -- in "The Rumble" scene. And I also distinctly recall that the Crierion LD of THE WIZARD OF OZ was missing the last half of Professor Marvel's line, "I'm a very good man, I'm just a very bad wizard." Again, all of this was before the Internet, so I don't know how many people noticed and/or complained about these shocking omissions. But it always struck me as ironic that Criterion, which was supposed to be the ne-plus-ultra of home video, released at least two films in incomplete form.

As far as the WSS Blu-ray is concerned, it seems to me that it's probably worth making a distinction between problems that could easily be fixed and should never have occurred in the first place, such as the color transitions in the overture, as compared to issues that may no longer be fixable, such as the fact that the optical/dupe sections stand out from the rest of the film. I'm guessing that maybe it's not longer possible to go back to original elements and make those sections looks better?

Also, question for the person who complained about the SCROOGE overture on the Blu-ray. Can you explain what's wrong with it? I think it's fine on the DVD.
post #681 of 724
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael1 View Post

Also, question for the person who complained about the SCROOGE overture on the Blu-ray. Can you explain what's wrong with it? I think it's fine on the DVD.

They left off the Overture on the Blu-ray of Scrooge.
post #682 of 724


Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Harris View Post

 

As far as I can tell, only a single recent Blu-ray fits into the category of "let's spend nothing," or "let's see if we can pull one over on the public," and that would unfortunately be that disc that should have been lovelier than ever.

 

RAH

 

 


I would have to say that "The Greatest Story Ever Told" falls into that catagory

 

"My Fair Lady" on the other hand looks much better in HD than "TGSET" in terms of image sharpness/detail with the exception of the fading at the sides.

 

I would suspect a little more care went into the "My Fair Lady" disc than TGSET. Problem was not enought care went into either of these films and MFL deserved more care since it is a better seller and a better film.  (quite possibly no care went into TGSET)

 

When "Viva Las Vegas" (35MM which looks very good) looks better than "My Fair Lady" (70MM Superpanavision) (both from 1964) on Blu-ray something is wrong

 

post #683 of 724


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian W. View Post


That happened when I saw it on Capitol Hill in Seattle back in, oh, 1998 or so. I should have known when, during the whistles at the opening of the film, someone in the audience was whistling back. And then EVERY time characters broke into song, there were giggles. They laughed at the rape scene. They were on the floor during "A Boy Like That" and "I Have a Love." It was horrible. I almost walked out.
Younger Seattle audiences can be like that -- very young, "think they're hip" audiences that believe they know all about film but really don't, because the only films they know anything about are "Citizen Kane" and any Tarantino movie. (I was born and raised in Seattle -- I feel have the right to say that.) It was in Seattle in the University district where I witnessed the mostly college-age crowd break into laughter at Clean shooting the boat up in "Apocalypse Now." Hate 'em. I suppose the younger crowd can be like that anywhere.
But seeing "West Side Story" in downtown Seattle, where the crowd skewed a little older, was a great experience. No inappropriate laughter, totally got into the spirit and style of the film. Didn't have the "think I'm hip" college age crowd at that one. (Which is absolutely hilarious, because after living in Los Angeles for 12 years I can say unequivocally that no one outside of Washington state pays any attention to Seattle at all. It's not even on the radar as an important city.)

 

The old Biblical advice about not casting "pearls before swine" is a cliché that became cliché because it is true. I'm 28, and I find these people even more obnoxious, considering they're of my generation. And you are right, they know nothing about movies. If I never hear the phrase "mise-en-scene" from a non-Francophone again, I will not miss it.

 

Your experience is symptomatic of an epidemic of cultural ignorance. As late as the 1990s, MAD was still doing parodies of classic poetry that none of its target audience was required to read anymore. It's also symptomatic of a decline in manners.

post #684 of 724
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Weicker View Post

I'm a little confused by this comment.
As far as I've read, there are five problems:
1) the transition between the overture and the main title
2) the sound position of the opening whistles
3) the opticals now standing out from the main picture
4) audio not being the original 6-track
5) some jitter during the initial overhead shot of NY.
I don't believe any other errors were reported.
David

For the record, I'd like to add:

4. Audio not being the original un-filtered 4-track (the 6-track isn't suitable for home theater speaker placement as-is)

4a. The modern lossless remix being overly filtered/de-noised, and not representing the 'sound', 'feel' and ambience of the original

6. Intermittent flickering/flashing across the whole image, which occurs throughout the whole film. It's subtle, but once you've seen it, you can't help noticing it. It's not shot specifc, in that the flicker can appear/disappear within a single shot. It's similar to the flickering effect you get when a projector bulb has an unstable arc.
post #685 of 724
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael1 View Post

I also had a bad experience with an idiotic audience member at a screening of WSS in NYC several years ago. As we all know, the transition between dialogue and singing in that movie is handled very skillfully; in fact, that's one of the movie's greatest triumphs. Still, this one stupid asshole at the screening kept giggling every time someone started singing, as if to prove how superior his sensibility was to the musical film genre. I usually confront morons like this afterwards, but for some reason, I didn't on this occasion. If I had done so, what I would have said was, "Umm, you're at a screening of WEST SIDE STORY. Did you not know it was a musical? Next time, please stay home, you stupid fool."

I think West Side Story falls into that giggle-inducing (for certain audience members) category of movie musical more than most, considering it is about tough street gangs who break into song and dance. That our first impression is of finger-snapping ballet being done in a very real cityscape location only heightens the risk of a giggle fest among those audience members for the duration, which sounds like what happened in the case of the asshole sitting behind you. In fact, I think that is one reason many of us are more protective of this movie musical and its treatment than others. WSS strikes such a delicate balance in that regard, takes such bold risks even in the way it transitions into and out of song and dance while still aspiring to deliver a heavy, important message about the human condition that I bristle over someone in the process not getting those precise pieces of this very exacting puzzle as right as possible.

btw, I've heard the psychology behind some people not being able to handle the characters of a musical breaking into song and dance without giggling or, in some cases, walking out (as the audience member at the Broadway stage version of it did in Stephen Sondheim's anecdote in the bonus material) is not that we're seeing human beings acting "abnormally", as many assert. Just the opposite. From birth, children in virtually every culture vocalize and wiggle their bodies to express their emotions without regard for what is "proper". That is perfectly natural human behavior. Only as we grow older and are told to behave otherwise do we begin to put up guards and barriers to that unbridled expression of emotion. Musicals bring us back to that freer and more open emotional expression. But some people simply cannot handle witnessing the direct, unguarded expression of emotion we're asked to accept in a musical because we've worked so hard to suppress what came naturally to us as children.
post #686 of 724
That's a wonderful explanation, Cineman. Thanks so much. Still, I have to assume that the asshole who giggled through the WEST SIDE STORY screening must have known what he was getting into, unless he somehow missed the memo that this movie is a musical about gang warfare in NYC (at least partly). So why was he there in the first place? I think it was just to show his supposed intellectual and emotional superiority, when what he actually showed was his complete idiocy and lack of heart.
post #687 of 724

So much to digest in the past 3-4 pages about of my favorite films that I was fortunate to see in its original presentation in my home city. The theater had been an ancient hall going back over 60 years and converted to show show 70mm, TODD-AO etc and owned by Fox and rather a long narrow place. So South Pacific and Sound of Music both had long engagements at that venue. They shunted Cleopatra to a smaller venue(a former Paramount fleahouse going back pre-1920) which Fox remained The Cleopatra with 70mm equipment for the duration.It was an Easter Monday and I had either just turned 15 or about to at the time. It was a present from someone and a most wanted to see film. I was forever more rapt in this film and it is ironic that a major location setting street in the film has been discontinued and a large entertainment library built on that former street.

 

I have the Laserdisc and DVD presentations of this film. I have two copies of the deluxe version of this Blu Ray release which I did not pay for in the end as I was refunded the money due to these errors and told to keep them both. The second copy has a new barcode stuck on it.

 

It amazes me that all the greatest films of all time(well, moreorless) coming out at the period originally and the same period on Blu Ray and both being flawed. With MFL they could have got Warner to do it and paid accordingly(afterall The African Queen was done there for Blu Ray). Had Warners got the MGM/UA family in two attempts to buy it(would the Monopolies objected) under two different distress feelers, we might have got a better result from those elements that would have been Warners and all these forum pages would not have existed or need t have existed. Under laws in my country I would have every right to have my money refunded as the release was not as it should be. Bit like a car without a steering wheel which means I can't use it and enjoy driving it. 

 

People have mentioned quality presentations in a theater. I recall when many years ago there was a revival(maybe 1980s) of Fantasia. I had never seen it but knew all about it and sold two incarnations of the soundtrack LPs. One as a boxed 2-disc(twofer) with a wizard Mickey on the top lid and the other the US fold out twofer. A friend wanted to see this at a downtown place that had been converted to several screens(another once a Paramount house that had been a live theater once) on  a weekday evening performance and his wife did not want to go so I was invited(met Tex Beneke as an old man in Melbourne thru the same lady not wanting to go). Well, the print would not have got house room in my place. Faded, badly scratched, spliced over and over and very noisy background thru soundtrack wear. We should demanded the money back at such a rip-off. But my point is that it gives a bad image of older films to a young audience. I remember back in the 80s when a radio station had a session of Glenn Miller and I got guys coming to my shop wanting to hear some and maybe buy a record or two. Lost out because they kept asking what all the background crackle was. The radio playings were filtered so the noise was not apparent over the airwaves. Its the future generations that must like what we do if these oler classics are going to survive in the marketplace and not disappear for good. Give a good presentation and you win a few more collectors in the future. 

 

I have had so many people palm off their "Gray" area DVDs or VHS and they are mostly horrible. These items would not exist if the companies that own or owned them put out quality DVD etc. I really don't want them and don't sit and watch them. But people have paid good money for them and over much more than they should in the first place. 

 

The same people who buy this crap complain to me if they see a pixel on a commercial DVD!!! I play the disc and there is none. They ask me to clean the disc and the pixel will go away. I go thru the motions. So crappy DVD-Rs are OK but a pixel on a commercial DVD causes an uproar.

 

I did nothing yet on MFL Blu Ray for a refund but got my The Phantom of the Opera replacement from Image yesterday in a fully packaged unit but was expecting only the disc in a sleeve. 

post #688 of 724
this is my bad experience watching WSS. Back in the 60's when I was in high school I went to a screening of WSS on Thanksgiving night. This was several years after it's initial release and probably the 3rd time it had played at the single theater in my hometown. Besides me there were only about a half dozen other people in the theater including two middle aged women sitting two or three rows behind me. They were chatting and giggling throughout the movie which was annoying enough, but after the "America" number one of them loudly announced, "I don't know why I paid a buck seventy five to watch a bunch of GDPR's (you'll have to fill in her crude remark yourself) That was enough for me. I turned and said, "Why don't you shut-up?" To which she responded, "Why? What are you one of them GDPR's? I'm an American!" I spent the rest of the movie gritting my teeth. Complaining to management would have done no good. I was a kid and if I complained I would probably have been thrown out.

On another note: I'm a fairly recent participant here and I've been impressed so far by the lack of snark on this site. It's nice, particularly for a newby, to be able to make a comment or ask a question without being treated like an idiot (even when we are). I hadn't checked this thread out in a few days and I was pretty dismayed to see that it had degenerated into the kind of discussion that usually involves political and cultural differences between red states and blue states. I love a good passionate discussion involving different view points, but it seems we don't know how to do it anymore without demonizing anyone we disagree with.

It seems to me what should be galling to anyone who cares about WSS is that most of the problems with it were completely avoidable. Whether you think the problems are major or minor the fact that they are unnecessary should be a problem for you. Even if you don't care about these particular problems aren't you even a little concerned about what will happen in the future, to other movies, if the studios get the idea that the public doesn't care? Also, since mistakes have a way of perpetuating themselves and those who are old enough to have some memory of what these films should look like are not getting any younger there is a real danger that mistakes, left unchallenged, could become the future standard for these films.
post #689 of 724
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris View Post

 We would (and still do) see window-boxed main titles, without necessity.
"The Piano" comes to mind...
post #690 of 724
I got my fixed, unfixed blu ray yesterday in the mail. I called the Fox number the girl told me she was sorry to hear about it but no one else has called to complaine. I can't believe that! is there a better way to get to someone and hope they can get it right?
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Home Theater Forum › Home Theater Forum › Blu-ray, DVD, Streaming Video and Digital Downloads › Blu-ray › A Few Words About By Robert Harris › A few words about...™ West Side Story -- in Blu-ray