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A few words about...™ West Side Story -- in Blu-ray - Page 2

post #31 of 724
10/26/11 at 12:55pm

Why don't the studios issue the Discs to the reviewers before they are pressed??? - that way they are getting the best (and free) quality control.

 

So much Quality control today is some under paid kid (20 - 30)  waching a 50 year old film he never saw and knows little about. A film like "West Side Story" Should be given to Robert Harris for quality control - then these mistakes could be caught before it's too late

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Gear mentioned in this thread:

West Side Story: 50th Anniversary Edition [Blu-ray]
post #32 of 724
10/26/11 at 1:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Skoda View Post

I watched the first hour of the blu-ray last night, and the changed sound of the music is what I noticed right away. It sounds to me, at least during the overture and opening sequences, that they've added a bit of reverb to the music, giving it a bit more of a symphony-hall sound. The original dry but full, in-your-face sound I've always heard before seems more appropriate to this score.
It's a subtle thing, and it's a change that didn't bother me after I got used to it, but I really wish the goal was to reproduce exactly what the original presentation was like, not making any subjective "improvements."

Oh no...!!! The music, especially the overture, is mostly aggressive, in keeping with the subject matter. You're right when you say it should be 'in your face'. It should attack.
After someone on another thread complained about the tempered soundtrack on the DVD edition of a movie that had been better served by its VHS HiFi iteration, I mentioned my bitter disappointment with the DVD and HD versions of U2's Rattle and Hum. The huge eruption in surround from the stadium at the beginning got the life compressed out of it on the discs, making me wish I'd held onto the tape. I'm all for the widest dynamic range possible, but some things just need to be loud! Turning up the volume, strange to say, didn't compensate for the lack of 'oomph.'
Is there any chance that your speaker system or environment may have changed since you last saw WSS? I'm hoping this is the case.

(The story, as everyone knows, is essentially Will's R&J, but at least a fraction of the score was inspired by Beethoven. The first five notes of 'Somewhere' were lifted directly from the second movement of Ludwig Van's Fifth Piano Concerto, a thing of beauty and a joy forever).
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post #33 of 724
10/26/11 at 1:33pm

OH NO!!!  ...indeed.

 

Dry, crisp, clean, closely miked, in your face, every eighth and sixteenth note clear and crisp.  That's always been a major contributing factor in the impact this film delivers.

 

In fact, that's my #1 complaint about many re-recordings of film scores, going all the way back to Bernard Herrmann's early re-recordings -- they've got the wrong ambience.  The resulting impact, however good the playing and conducting may be, is either compromised or lost entirely.

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post #34 of 724
10/26/11 at 1:57pm
Wow, this definitely doesn't sound good. A recall or replacement would be greatly appreciated, especially if they are also giving it premium "big box" treatment. That boxset almost seems like a hollow gesture, with the film itself seemingly getting far less care.

I'll be putting off my purchase for now.
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post #35 of 724
10/26/11 at 2:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoHud View Post

Wow, this definitely doesn't sound good. A recall or replacement would be greatly appreciated, especially if they are also giving it premium "big box" treatment. That boxset almost seems like a hollow gesture, with the film itself seemingly getting far less care.
I'll be putting off my purchase for now.


At Blu-ray.com this was posted:

 

"Fox source as saying the distributor "will not recall the title. It will instead implement what's being called a 'running fix.' This means that if anyone wants to send their West Side Story Blu-ray back, Fox Home Video will accept it and send them a corrected disc down the road."

Wells' source then adds "[Fox is] looking to fix the issue on future discs."

 

 

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=7619
 

 

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post #36 of 724
10/26/11 at 3:17pm
I wish MGM and Fox would do a "running fix" for MAD WORLD and space the Overture and Main Title a bit more and add the Entr'acte music.

I still have WEST SIDE STORY preordered, but will probably get it and send it in for the fix. Sometimes, the package doesn't change and it is guess work on what one gets.
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post #37 of 724
10/26/11 at 3:39pm

In the world of Blu-ray being first to get a disc usually means getting a defective disc, only after a year or so is the good version made available - and at a lower price

 

by the way...what is FOX doing about the abysmal transfer of "The Greatest Story Ever Told" Bl-ray disc. When is a replacment disc going to be made available?

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post #38 of 724
10/26/11 at 3:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahollis View Post



At Blu-ray.com this was posted:

"Fox source as saying the distributor "will not recall the title. It will instead implement what's being called a 'running fix.' This means that if anyone wants to send their West Side Story Blu-ray back, Fox Home Video will accept it and send them a corrected disc down the road."


Wells' source then adds "[Fox is] looking to fix the issue on future discs."


http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=7619

 

Forum members are usually very good about communicating any changes to UPC codes on the covers and/or discs themselves...
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post #39 of 724
10/26/11 at 5:42pm
Like many of us here I was very much looking forward the Blu-Ray release of the recently restored West Side Story. Reluctantly, I am now inclined to wait and see how things play out. I still have faith that Fox will follow through and restore this brilliant United Artists/MGM film to its original glory. Now, hopefully, those in charge will respect the original work of art they are bringing back to new life. Blu-Ray may be the very last chance to get it right.
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post #40 of 724
10/26/11 at 6:35pm
Well, this is very disappointing. Thank you for the heads up on this one, Mr. Harris. I have cancelled my Amazon pre-order and will wait until this gets sorted out. Damn! I was really looking forward to this release.
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post #41 of 724
10/26/11 at 6:52pm

I fear with the canceled orders and people waiting to buy for a "corrected" copy that MGM/Fox will use it as an excuse to say that vault musical titles don't sell and they're not going to do any more.

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post #42 of 724
10/26/11 at 7:42pm



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattH. View Post

I fear with the canceled orders and people waiting to buy for a "corrected" copy that MGM/Fox will use it as an excuse to say that vault musical titles don't sell and they're not going to do any more.


You have legitimate thought here, but honestly I have replaced and received "corrected" discs on SAVING PRIVATE RYAN and PINOCCHIO among a few others and for the life of me, wonder why they cannot just get it right the first time.  I am torn, I ordered it and now canceled it and now on the fence again with placing an order.  I just don't know if I want to go through that trouble when it should be right the first time.  And I agree with the other posters above, how about "corrected" discs on IT'S A MAD MAD MAD MAD WORLD, SCROOGE and THE GREATEST STORY EVER TOLD.  With those three and now WWS with problems there is no wonder people are tired of it and may be a reason they are not buying. So far the best musical done right on Blu-ray this year that has my vote is THE FIRST NUDIE MUSICA.  And yes I did like FIDDLER ON THE ROOF and CHITTY CHITTY BANG BANG, they have my vote also. 

 

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post #43 of 724
10/26/11 at 7:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattH. View Post

I fear with the canceled orders and people waiting to buy for a "corrected" copy that MGM/Fox will use it as an excuse to say that vault musical titles don't sell and they're not going to do any more.

Hopefully they have figures describing the number of preorders before/after this news broke. That would pretty clearly show them how the land lays!

I didn't preorder, but I was gonna buy this on Day One, and now I'm on the fence...
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post #44 of 724
10/26/11 at 8:27pm
Sticking with my pre-orders is the only logical thing for me to do - a bird in the hand etc (I'm a coward!).
Fox promises a replacement 'down the road', but when that will be is the question. I'm taking them at their word, so hopefully they don't read my and others' willingness to forge ahead to be a sign that we're happy with things as they are.

The exchange program implemented for Saving Private Ryan and Gladiator worked well, and the WSS BD, for all its flaws, sounds vastly superior to the DVD.
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post #45 of 724
10/26/11 at 9:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by marsnkc View Post

The exchange program implemented for Saving Private Ryan and Gladiator worked well, and the WSS BD, for all its flaws, sounds vastly superior to the DVD.


The point for me is that it should be flawless.  Guys this is it, this is the last home format before all is streamed.  I do not expect another revisit to the title in five or ten years as we had with DVD.  I am not aware of an exchange program that Fox has gone through.  They corrected the problem with the CLEOPATRA DVD, but did not offer a replacement for it, just fixed the next pressings.  I could be wrong, so let me know. 

 

I just choose to wait until I am sure if they fix the problem are not then decide to either purchase or not.  Already in the Blu-ray.com posting, Fox said, "Hey this is what MGM gave us," which is exactly what they said about THE GREATEST STORY EVER TOLD and there was no "fix."
 

 

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post #46 of 724
10/26/11 at 9:25pm
Fox did indeed offer a replacement dvd for "Cleopatra" -- I know because I got one.
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post #47 of 724
10/26/11 at 9:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattH. View Post

I fear with the canceled orders and people waiting to buy for a "corrected" copy that MGM/Fox will use it as an excuse to say that vault musical titles don't sell and they're not going to do any more.


They have sales figures of Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, Fiddler on the Roof, Hair, and New York, New York that may tell a different story.

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post #48 of 724
10/27/11 at 12:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahollis View Post


Quote:
Originally Posted by marsnkc View Post

The exchange program implemented for Saving Private Ryan and Gladiator worked well, and the WSS BD, for all its flaws, sounds vastly superior to the DVD.


The point for me is that it should be flawless.  Guys this is it, this is the last home format before all is streamed.  I do not expect another revisit to the title in five or ten years as we had with DVD.  I am not aware of an exchange program that Fox has gone through.  They corrected the problem with the CLEOPATRA DVD, but did not offer a replacement for it, just fixed the next pressings.  I could be wrong, so let me know. 

I just choose to wait until I am sure if they fix the problem are not then decide to either purchase or not.  Already in the Blu-ray.com posting, Fox said, "Hey this is what MGM gave us," which is exactly what they said about THE GREATEST STORY EVER TOLD and there was no "fix."

 

Allen -
You won't get any argument from me that it should be flawless, and I wouldn't even give a thought to purchasing it if its current condition was on the order of a Spartacus, Out of Africa, Patton or other such plasticized monstrosity.
Paradoxically, your argument for not getting it now - the last home format before all is streamed - is the principal reason why I want this thing in my grubby little hands, warts and all (though I hope these get cured). The decision whether to purchase it or not is not a factor for me. I want it for its apparent improvements over previous editions. It's not like I can choose between buying this or a perfect one from Columbia or Warner.
If it turns out to be less than a significant improvement over my 2003 DVD set, I'll just mark it defective and return it to Amazon. If it's an obvious improvement, I'll keep it, hope for the promised fix and also hope that MGM has nothing more in its library that I'll ever want on blu.
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post #49 of 724
10/27/11 at 5:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewA View Post


They have sales figures of Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, Fiddler on the Roof, Hair, and New York, New York that may tell a different story.



I didn't say the excuse would be a legitimate one, only that the studio(s) might use that as the reason they weren't making any more efforts with older musicals.

 

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post #50 of 724
10/27/11 at 8:27am



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajabrams View Post

Fox did indeed offer a replacement dvd for "Cleopatra" -- I know because I got one.


Thanks.  I stand corrected, I must have missed the announcement at the time.  Which goes to show that even that even a replacement program is not flawless. 
 

 

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post #51 of 724
10/27/11 at 8:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by marsnkc View Post


Allen -
You won't get any argument from me that it should be flawless, and I wouldn't even give a thought to purchasing it if its current condition was on the order of a Spartacus, Out of Africa, Patton or other such plasticized monstrosity.
Paradoxically, your argument for not getting it now - the last home format before all is streamed - is the principal reason why I want this thing in my grubby little hands, warts and all (though I hope these get cured). The decision whether to purchase it or not is not a factor for me. I want it for its apparent improvements over previous editions. It's not like I can choose between buying this or a perfect one from Columbia or Warner.
If it turns out to be less than a significant improvement over my 2003 DVD set, I'll just mark it defective and return it to Amazon. If it's an obvious improvement, I'll keep it, hope for the promised fix and also hope that MGM has nothing more in its library that I'll ever want on blu.


 

I certainly understand your thoughts.  If it does turn out to be more superior to the DVD, which early reviews have certainly indicated, I will wait a while to see about a fix, and then more than likely get it in my "grubby little hands" too.  MGM did such a great job on Fiddler and Chitty and we know what is possible, so for them to not take the care in this classic American film musical is very disappointing.  I have always thought the opening overture really puts the viewer in the mood for something special and the fade to black and back, is just disconcerting to me as I seems is to a lot of people. 

 

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post #52 of 724
10/27/11 at 9:38am
Thread Starter 

An interesting piece...

 

http://www.audionamix.com/press/viewer.php?name=Audionamix_FSMO_sept2011.pdf

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post #53 of 724
10/27/11 at 9:46am
Boy, I'm glad I found this discussion. I just preordered the collector's set yesterday and now I'm seriously rethinking. It's so disheartening to think they'd screw up like this.
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post #54 of 724
10/27/11 at 9:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris View Post

I received an interesting message from someone asking a very good question.

A dissolve that been inadvertently turned into a fade out / fade in...

Some dupes that show the ravages of time...

A bit of audio that might possibly be more accurate slightly further to the rear.

What does it all mean in the scheme of things.

Their final point was that we're not talking about the Mona Lisa.

My answer is that we're very much discussing the Mona Lisa, albeit a more modern version.  West Side Story was the synthesis of an astoundingly good Broadway musical that was honed, by the best in the business into one of the greatest films ever created.

West Side Story, especially when viewed in its native 70mm is a work of astounding quality.

Even a cursory glance at the majority of the footage in this Blu-ray will prove that out, as this is a Blu-ray that aside from its problems, shines.

Everyone in the production was pushed beyond their limits toward the creation of a piece of art that has stood the test of time.
If viewers don't have a tear in their eye at the finale, they probably aren't human.

Everything about the film was performed at the highest level, and the final prints, as struck from the rolls of original camera negative in September and October of 1961, were perfect in every regard.  They were checked after printing, and then again after striping and sounding.  Someone watched every reel of every print.

Theatres were set up and checked to make certain that everything would play according to plan.

There are certain films that are a part of our collective history.  Most people can probably rattle off the titles of a hundred or more, and some can repeat sections of dialogue.

The truly great films are our Sistine Chapel.

They were created by the giants of their era, and are the art of the 20th, and now the 21st centuries.

Both the films and their creators deserve to treated with the respect they would have received on set and at premieres.  This includes, even more importantly, those who are no longer with us. Unless untoward things have happened to the original elements, and images and audio can no longer be brought up to perfect quality, these films should be released perfect in every regard.

Bringing the Blu-ray of West Side Story up to perfection is not an unattainable act.  It would not take an obscene budget.

There are so many people that will see West Side Story on Blu-ray for the first time, and others for which it will be the only way it will be seen, that one owes it to the filmmakers to see that their work is properly preserved, restored if necessary, and released in the absolute highest quality, transparent to the original.

Anything less is unthinkable.

RAH

Beautifully put, Mr. Harris. Thank you!
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post #55 of 724
10/27/11 at 9:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewA View Post



They have sales figures of Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, Fiddler on the Roof, Hair, and New York, New York that may tell a different story.

New York, New York would not, I'm afraid, tell a different story. smile.gif
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post #56 of 724
10/27/11 at 10:12am
And I was vilified for wanting the "Det" put back into [I]Det sjunde inseglet[/I]...
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post #57 of 724
10/27/11 at 10:38am

Originally Posted by Robert Harris View Post

An interesting piece...

 

http://www.audionamix.com/press/viewer.php?name=Audionamix_FSMO_sept2011.pdf


I never grow accustomed to how STUNNED I am upon reading about entire musical scores being lost.  The individual parts, okay, I could understand studios at one time believing there could never be another use for them...but not to make it a rule to keep a copy of at least the conductor's full score?  (Doing so would also make it possible to recreate those individual parts if needed.)  Why not toss out all the various scripts, too?  Thank God they found the "short score" (second best thing) in the Robert Wise collection.  If only they'd make that available online for people passionate about the music to browse and study.  The Bernstein folks published the original stage full score, so what a joy it would be to see this orchestration as well.

 

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post #58 of 724
10/27/11 at 12:55pm

United Artists was notorious for not keeping materail around

 

Original negative of "Tom Jones"

All the "It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World" stuff

 

 

Amoung some of the musical stuff:

 

"How to Succed in Business" had a few other musical  moments deleted (Coffee Break, A Secretary Is Not a Toy section) so it could premiere at Radio City usic Hall at 2 hours.

 

"Chitty Chitty Bang Bang" had a whole section where some children sneak into the Baron's kitchen to steal food (photos of the scene appear in the Random House Book) - another piece of film that's gone

 

Zero Motel filmed the song "Free" from  "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum" it was never right , Mostel had a difficult time with the lip sync and it was cut - now gone

 

 

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post #59 of 724
10/27/11 at 12:58pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GMpasqua View Post

United Artists was notorious for not keeping materail around

 

Original negative of "Tom Jones"

All the "It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World" stuff

 

 

Amoung some of the musical stuff:

 

"How to Succed in Business" had a few other musical  moments deleted (Coffee Break, A Secretary Is Not a Toy section) so it could premiere at Radio City usic Hall at 2 hours.

 

"Chitty Chitty Bang Bang" had a whole section where some children sneak into the Baron's kitchen to steal food (photos of the scene appear in the Random House Book) - another piece of film that's gone

 

Zero Motel filmed the song "Free" from  "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum" it was never right , Mostel had a difficult time with the lip sync and it was cut - now gone

 

 


While several reels of Tom Jones original neg had gone missing, they have no rejoined their brethren.

 

RAH

 

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post #60 of 724
10/27/11 at 1:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by haineshisway View Post


New York, New York would not, I'm afraid, tell a different story. smile.gif


You may be correct about that!

 

Speaking of New York, have you seen the Harry Belafonte documentary currently airing on HBO? There is a segment about the furor which ensured when Petula Clark touched Harry's arm while they were singing a duet. I believe that you have worked with Pet Clark.

 

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West Side Story: 50th Anniversary Edition [Blu-ray]
Home Theater Forum › Home Theater Forum › Blu-ray, DVD, Streaming Video and Digital Downloads › Blu-ray › A Few Words About By Robert Harris › A few words about...™ West Side Story -- in Blu-ray