5.1 Music Mixes Question

Mark:

 

There are others here who know a lot more about this than I do, but it's my impression that there are many different ways of approaching these mixes on the part of the artists and sound mixers. 

 

I remember that Mickey Hart, when producing some of the Grateful Dead 5.1 mixes liked the idea of placing the listener "right in the middle of the band."  But that others prefer to keep the listener in the audience and using the surrounds for ambience. 

 

Personally, I like most 5.1 music mixes I've heard.  Others here take a different view. 

 

I'm expecting a new receiver any day now.  My surrounds have gone AWOL on my current receiver (an 11-year old Sony) so this is going to be a big upgrade for me--for both connectivity improvements and audio processing.  I am really looking forward to some new sound experiences! 

From what I've read over the years many of the early surround mixes are not thought of very highly today. It was fairly new territory and they were learning as they went along. In fact Porcupine Tree's Steven Wilson, a long time supporter of surround sound, called Fragile a rather poor mix. I also think there were some strange choices in mixing some 5.1 discs like Toto's Toto IV, The Moody Blus Days Of Future Past and even Carol Kings Tapestry. All wonderful albums but some weird choices were made.

Even with 5 channels available many people seem to believe all musicians and instruments should be located in the front soundstage with the surrounds used for audience and ambience. I like a little more agrissive mix like Fleetwood Macs Rumours, The Eagles Hotel California and Donald Fagan's Nightfly. But I also enjoy very aggressive mixes like PT's In Absentia, Steve Miller Bands Fly Like An Eagle and Alice Coopers Welcome To My Nightmare not to mention Pink Floyds DSOTM. While aggressive mixes have been referred to as "gimmicky" I prefer to call them inventive and creative. O.K., some were a little silly.

I think surround sound might have been initially thought of as putting the listener in the middle of the stage, as time moved on the listener was put back into the audience with the musicians on the stage in front of them. But a good aggressive mix can be a hoot! If that's your thing.

One of my favorite forms of surround sound is live concert dvd's/br's. These are generally very well done with Boz Skaggs Greatest Hit's Live being one of the best.

 

Mike makes mental note to look for Boz Skagg's's Greatest Hits Live.  The Lido Shuffle is an important tune of my youth! 

 

I'm with Gene.  I like the aggressive mixes.  A lot.  Even with more "simple" (sparse) recordings...like a Diana Krall disc...by placing her vocals in the center and spacing the piano, bass, guitar, drums, etc. in the surrounds really gives a feeling like the musicians are "in the room" with you. 

 

I believe music mixes can be treated differently from movie mixes because of the obvious impact of the sound field on the visual side of the film.  But with music, even when viewing a concert video, I like having the music and audience enveloping me. 

 

Queen's A Night at the Opera is another example of an aggressive mix in which all the major parts of the Bohemian Rhapsody are swirling around you!  It's fun! 

 

 

 

"Mike makes mental note to look for Boz Skagg's's Greatest Hits Live. The Lido Shuffle is an important tune of my youth!"

It really is an excellent concert. The S.F Music Hall is a quaint little venue with tons of atmosphere, The studio musicians are excellent, the mix is spot-on and It was produced by David Paich (Toto's keyboard player). Only thing is it's missing a couple of my favorite songs of his. But it did introduce me to a few others that I never knew about. And Lido Shuffle is present and accounted for .

Nice!  I guess there's no blu (...yet) but the amazon reviews all seem to rave about the show/performance/dvd.  It is officially added to my wishlist! 

 

Sorry to have derailed the thread...but now back to our regularly scheduled discussion about music mixes. 

First thing to ask is how is the disc player hooked up to the receiver? Most receivers will bypass all processing if the player is hooked up with the multi-channel analog inputs. There are a very few exceptions so a peek at the receivers manual may be needed. When hooked up to a receiver with hdmi, and if the receiver is version 1.1 or higher you can get DVD-A. SACD requires 1.2 and the receiver needs to be able to accept it (50/50). Some receivers will even accept straight DSD and do the processing itself. In all of these instances all audio processing should be available for DVD-A and SACD. In general, hdmi version 1.1 added DVD-A playback and 1.2 added SACD. So, you need to have the right player, the right receiver and have them connected via hdmi to use all the processing the receiver has to offer. On the other hand, there are those purist who believe in straight analog from the players DAC to the speakers with no processing what so ever. And lets not forget that all DVD-A's also have a Dolby Digital option for standard resolution 5.1 playback with receiver processing when connected with optical or coaxial, if you so choose.

The best way to find out how a surround disc is supposed to sound is to turn off all of the receivers processing and have the speaker volumes properly calibrated. This will of course eliminate any influence by the receiver. Audyssey sets things up a little differently than YAPO or MCACC or EZSetEQ, etc so there may be some noticable differences in what you hear when using these different eq programs.

I listened to Fragile on DVD-A for the first time in a long while. In surround sound I found it to be a very aggressive mix with lots of activity in the surrounds. Some of it even I felt was a little over-board (bet Mike would get a kick out of it though). But this album has a lot of unusual sound effects which a mixer can't be blamed for getting a little carried away with. A bigger problem for me was when listening to Roundabout the sound had a lot of echo in it making it sound kind of hollow. I didn't notice this when listening to the stereo mix, even when Dolby Prologic was added. A good way to tell if you like the surround mix is to also listen to the stereo mix, then decide for yourself if 5.1 was an improvement or a distraction.

Other very aggressive mixes are from The Flaming Lipps, Porcupine Tree and DTS Entertainment's HDS series like the previously mentioned Steve Miller Band, Band On The Run by Wings and Not Fragile (coincidence?) by BTO.

Other highly regarded 5.1 mixes are Dire Straights Brothers In Arms and The Beach Boys Pet Sounds. The extras alone are worth the price on that one.

Other concert dvd's that I really like are Toto's Live In Amsterdam and ELO's ZOOM.

I need to get Moving Pictures on BD.

What I really look for in a mix is how well balanced are the instruments overall? I feel a good mix allows you to hear lots of detail in the music, without any one detail overpowering the others. Some folks protest when the mix sounds different from the first way they heard it (usually on vinyl). Then there is blatant omission or volume of one instrument so low that it is practically missing. This is a major issue I have with tge DVD-A of Brain Salad Surgery by Emerson, Lake & Palmer. The biggest mistake occurs about half way through the third impression of Karn Evil 9. The Hammond gets buried in the mix.

Another way a mix can sound wrong is when parts from the multi-track that were intentionally buried are "exposed" in the 5.1 mix. The most glaring example of this is the title track of Derek & The Dominos "Layla". It features some of Duane Allman's most inspired playing, but it also includes some really bum notes that Tom Dowd wisely buried in the mix. I think any 5.1 producer should carefully compare their mix to both the original stereo master and any other highly regarded remasters.

BTW, there are several spots on Roundabout where there are more than one vocal part. I believe Jon doubled some of his parts as well.

I used the auto setup (MCAAC) on my Pioneer receiver to try to get a balanced sound. I ended up tweeking the center channel about 4 db louder, and the crossover point on my subs at about 105 Hz. I did this to compensate for the lack of lower mid bass on my Polk Monitor 70s at medium-low to medium levels.

Gene:  I thought I'd let you know I have had custody of the Scaggs concert DVD for quite awhile now and have enjoyed it very much.  Outside of a few of his classics (Lido Shuffle, Lowdown & We're All Alone), I'm not too familiar with his work.  So, it's been a lot of fun and I really do like the mix. 

 

I think it's a little gem that most people are un-aware of. It was also shot with HD cameras so I'm hoping for a BluRay version someday. Maybe I'll slip a note under his door.

Be sure to check out some of the Extra's. There's not a lot of it and none of it is earth shattering but a little fun none-the-less.

Look for ELO's Zoom http://www.amazon.com/Electric-Light-Orchestra-ELO-Zoom/dp/B00005QBZD/ref=sr_1_1?s=movies-tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1321406495&sr=1-1

And Randy Bachmans Every Song Tells A Story http://www.amazon.com/Randy-Bachman-Every-Tells-Concert/dp/B00006RJ57/ref=sr_1_1?s=movies-tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1321406548&sr=1-1

Also, Three Dog Night. It's missing Chuck Negron but they had to go with who they had. Still a nice concert dvd. Some songs turned out better than others but a lot of fun anyways. http://www.amazon.com/Three-Dog-Night-Tennessee-Orchestra/dp/B0000648XT/ref=sr_1_1?s=movies-tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1321406705&sr=1-1

I wonder if any of these will ever turn up in the bins at Big Lots .

Im with several of you in that I tend to prefer a bit more aggressive mix. One of my favorite things is to close my eyes and pretend that Im there playing along or having my own private jam session. And that comes from the immersive experience of a more full surround.

I finally got the chance tonight to spin up my new Bu-ray of The Rolling Stone's Some Girls Live in Texas 1978. 

 

It's a 16mm recording of one of the shows on the tour promoting their new Some Girls album.  It features such Stones classics as Beat of Burden, Miss You, Shattered, Imagination, Honky Tonk Woman, Jumping Jack Flash, and Brown Sugar.  17 tracks in all.  There's an LCPM stereo mix (to which it defaults) along with an DTS HD-MA mix and a DD 5.1 mix.  I've been listening to the 51 mix tonight and it's pretty impressive.

 

I'm not even a big Stones fan...but the music sounds great!  What I've heard about these fellas is right:  they could really rock! 

 

Anyway, Mick is front & center with Ronnie Wood mostly delegated to the front left and Keith Richards hanging out in the right front (as they are usually positioned on stage during the concert).  Charlie Watts and the rest of the players are spread across them all and the surrounds are mostly used for ambient music and crowd noise. 

 

Having never seen a Stones concert it is a real treat to watch these guys interact with each and see the obvious fun they are having during the performance. 

I prefer aggressive use of surrounds. Movies AND music. I paid good money for those speakers, let's give them a workout!

One of my favorite mixes is the a capella Seven Bridges Road by Eagles.