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A few words about...™ Citizen Kane -- in Blu-ray

post #1 of 193
Thread Starter 

I can't believe that there is anything that anyone could say about Orson Welles' freshman production about a man who "wants to run a newspaper," that hasn't already been said.

 

Suffice to say, for those poor souls who have never heard of, or seen in some quality manner, this old black & white film, that it was a 1941 game-changer in many ways.

 

Filled on a closed set, in secrecy, it is extremely creative, especially for its time in terms of story-telling, cinematography and acting...

 

Positioning of cameras, use of contrast and shadows, exposure of ceilings (also seen in The Maltese Falcon), diopters for close and normal shots combined, layered dialogue.  One could go one.

 

Finally arriving on Blu-ray, and apparently from the sole-surviving nitrate fine grain master, the film is generally beautiful.  The original negative was lost in a fire several decades ago.  Has grain been messed with a bit in clean-up?  Hard to tell, but nothing looks wrong or out of place.

 

A bit of bromide drag, especially in dupes, which is normal, but generally the fine grain looks to have been well produced, possibly only lacking a bit in the differentiation between pure black and slightly more translucent tones just above.

 

I'm thrilled with this disc, and the entire set for that matter, as proper additional discs have been included -- The Battle Over Citizen Kane and RKO 281.   While I'd love to had seen The Magnificent Ambersons included as a Blu-ray, it's only on DVD, and solely an Amazon exclusive.  I presume we'll be seeing a proper Blu-ray of it in the future, as I believe the OCN survives.  But wouldn't it have made a killer package to have both on Blu-ray, representing the work of Mr. Welles at RKO?

 

I'm not a big fan of exclusives.

 

Bottom line, understanding what one is seeing, the new Blu-ray from Warner is as good as this film will ever look, which is just short of stupendous.  Audio is also fully up to the task.

 

If I were to modify one small thing, it would be to bring down the shot in the screening room that reveals Joseph Cotten, just a couple of points.  Other than that, what I'm seeing is about as perfect as the film can get.  And yes, the rain is back on Mr. Bernstein's window.

 

Citizen Kane is, without a doubt, one of the most important classic releases of 2011, and may just head up the list.

 

I'm quite jealous of those who will see this film for their first time on this Blu-Ray.

 

Extremely Highly Recommended.

 

RAH

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post #2 of 193
Thanks, Robert.

I have never seen this film. For years I meant to watch it on DVD, but never got around to it. However, with Blu-ray, I am actually watching these kind of classics for the first time and will definitely check it out.
post #3 of 193

If only it came in reasonable packaging....

post #4 of 193

Agreed Brandon. $40 is a bit steep. I'll be waiting for a release that's about half that before I'll bite.

post #5 of 193
Regarding Ambersons, I believe Warner's statement alluded to the cut OCN not being extant. Several years ago, they commented in one of the chats here that they were delayed because they were searching for better elements, and later they caused a brief, sadly unfounded flurry of speculation that the preview cut, possibly Welles' Brazilian print, had been located, when they made the cryptic statement "We have found new elements." So perhaps they found a fine grain, or maybe a dupe neg. Again, just a shot out there, since I can't say when quality dupe neg stocks came about (Robert, you'd be able to help surely).

Also, Robert, could you enlighten me on what "bromide drag" is? Thanks!
post #6 of 193
I bought it mostly because The Magnificent Ambersons is packaged in for $5 extra and I have never seen it. Not a huge fan of exclusive boxes, but I can live with it in this case.
post #7 of 193
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brianruns10 View Post

Regarding Ambersons, I believe Warner's statement alluded to the cut OCN not being extant. Several years ago, they commented in one of the chats here that they were delayed because they were searching for better elements, and later they caused a brief, sadly unfounded flurry of speculation that the preview cut, possibly Welles' Brazilian print, had been located, when they made the cryptic statement "We have found new elements." So perhaps they found a fine grain, or maybe a dupe neg. Again, just a shot out there, since I can't say when quality dupe neg stocks came about (Robert, you'd be able to help surely).

Also, Robert, could you enlighten me on what "bromide drag" is? Thanks!

 

Bromide drag, which has been discussed here before, is seen in dupes that may have not received proper agitation.  The general look is off an adjacent tone moving in one direction or the other, almost as if a slight tail has been attached to an image.

 


 

 

post #8 of 193
Thanks! Boy I'm dying to see some screencaps of this. I'd imagine the Beaver will be on this soon.
post #9 of 193
Atlanta's Fox Theatre screened this over the weekend. While it's not the new digital restoration, it was a beautiful 35mm print that looks like it was from a duplicate negative. Excellent sharpness and contrast, but I did notice Joseph Cotten in the back of the newsroom. It was fun to see half the audience get a jolt with the screeching parrot near the end of the film. biggrin.gif

What are your thoughts on the sound? I noticed there's a western-style harmonica version of the "Charlie Kane" song playing underneath the scene with Leland confronting Kane after the scandal breaks. I don't remember it being audible on the DVD.
post #10 of 193
I remember hearing it on the DVD. It stuck in my mind because at the time, it reminded me of "Moonriver." I bet it'll come out quite nicely in that uncompressed audio on the blu-ray.
post #11 of 193
Quote:
Positioning of cameras, use of contrast and shadows, exposure of ceilings (also seen in The Maltese Falcon), diopters for close and normal shots combined, layered dialogue. One could go one.

Sorry Bob, but Welles and cinematographer Gregg Toland didn't use diopters (a special lens with a split focal-length, allowing near and far objects to be in focus in each side of the frame). KANE used simple deep-focus, in which the camera's aperture is stopped down to near pinhole dimensions and the set flooded with immense amounts of light to bring up the exposure.

Use of a diopter is easy to spot: the background in the half of the frame featuring the close-up is out of focus, and the foreground of the other half of the frame is similarly fuzzy. With deep focus, everything's in focus, from front to back, and that's what you find in KANE.
post #12 of 193
I recall in one of the commentaries that Toland also used superimpositions of various layers to heighten the deep focus. Most notably the shot when
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Susan attempts suicide

and you can see a spoon in a class on the nightstand in extreme closeup, with the rest of the background in focus as well. As I understand the foreground object was added later via the optical printer.
post #13 of 193
Thread Starter 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hollowbrook Drive-In View Post

Quote:
Positioning of cameras, use of contrast and shadows, exposure of ceilings (also seen in The Maltese Falcon), diopters for close and normal shots combined, layered dialogue. One could go one.

Gregg Toland didn't use diopters (a special lens with a split focal-length, allowing near and far objects to be in focus in each side of the frame). KANE used simple deep-focus, in which the camera's aperture is stopped down to near pinhole dimensions and the set flooded with immense amounts of light to bring up the exposure.

Use of a diopter is easy to spot: the background in the half of the frame featuring the close-up is out of focus, and the foreground of the other half of the frame is similarly fuzzy. With deep focus, everything's in focus, from front to back, and that's what you find in KANE.


Possibly I'm being a bit simplistic.  A normal diopter would leave an area where the differential must be well hidden.  If one examines, for example, the shot in which Kane is signing off on turning over the paper -- Thatcher behind desk at left in MS, Bernstein at R in BCU, there seems to be no line of demarkation.  The shot appears perfect in every respect.  The use of the word "diopter," at least for those who know photography seemed to be the easiest way to explain in a forum atmosphere.

 

RAH

 

post #14 of 193
I know the shot you mean, and I think for that one it may have been a combination of a longer lens to flatten the scene, on top of the recently available higher speed black and white stock, as well as powerful lighting to stop down a lot to really pump up the DoF.
post #15 of 193
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brianruns10 View Post

I know the shot you mean, and I think for that one it may have been a combination of a longer lens to flatten the scene, on top of the recently available higher speed black and white stock, as well as powerful lighting to stop down a lot to really pump up the DoF.


the shot would have necessitated special optics.

post #16 of 193
Another possibility: the Bernstein/Kane/Thatcher scene compositionally mirrors a later scene where Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Kane fires Leland
. Kane is in the foreground, Leland situated a bit further back, and Bernstein in the distance watching. I recall this shot was created through optical printing, with Leland and Bernstein shot separately from Kane, and the two combined. Pretty amazing feat of timing between the two.

Maybe they did the same for the former scene?
post #17 of 193
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brianruns10 View Post

Another possibility: the Bernstein/Kane/Thatcher scene compositionally mirrors a later scene where Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Kane fires Leland
. Kane is in the foreground, Leland situated a bit further back, and Bernstein in the distance watching. I recall this shot was created through optical printing, with Leland and Bernstein shot separately from Kane, and the two combined. Pretty amazing feat of timing between the two.

Maybe they did the same for the former scene?


Interesting thought, but shots comped through optical printed tended toward a bit of jitter and movement, and in this case, steady as a rock.  Apparently Everett Sloane was told not to move a muscle.

 

 

 

post #18 of 193
I'm glad that The Battle Over Citizen Kane and RKO 281 are included as extras, but I do wish someone would find a home for the reality-docudrama The Night That Panicked America starring Paul Shenar as Orson Welles. This recreation of The Mercury Theater's "War of the Worlds" broadcast on Halloween 1938 aired on TV on Halloween 1975. It shows the theater company acting out the play in the studio and intercuts with scenes of escalating panic in the lives of listeners. It was unanimously acclaimed in 1975 and frequently repeated, but it's on the verge of being forgotten today. It's also a vital piece of Orson Welles lore.

To paraphrase Paul McCartney, it looms large in his legend.
Edited by Richard--W - 8/30/11 at 1:30pm
post #19 of 193
Well I dug out my old DVD, not having the new disc of course. The Kane/Leland/Bernstein, according to the commentary, was indeed optical printing of two pieces, but having reviewed the other scene I believe I was mistaken. There is a subtle camera tilt that would negate the possibility of optical printing, given that this film predates Vistaglide and motion control.

I did notice though, if you look closely, Bernstein is really flirting with being out of focus. His hand on the document has good detail, but his face and body, being closest to the foreground, appears on the DVD to be just a hair soft, which would seem to suggest that Toland was really at the limit of the DoF of whatever combination of lens focal lengths, aperture settings and attachments would allow.
post #20 of 193
Quote:
Possibly I'm being a bit simplistic. A normal diopter would leave an area where the differential must be well hidden. If one examines, for example, the shot in which Kane is signing off on turning over the paper -- Thatcher behind desk at left in MS, Bernstein at R in BCU, there seems to be no line of demarkation. The shot appears perfect in every respect. The use of the word "diopter," at least for those who know photography seemed to be the easiest way to explain in a forum atmosphere.

RAH

What you're describing are traveling mattes, and the film is full of them and practically every other kind of special optical effect developed to that time, including glass shots and the Schufftan Process, but not for the scenes you and the others refer to.

There's no line of demarcation between Kane, Thatcher and Bernstein because there's no matte or split field -- it's all just deep focus, a technique sadly all but lost today in a cinematic world where the typical practice is to photograph two-shots from forty feet away using a telephoto lens.

I would direct your attention to John Frankenheimer's films of the early-mid 1960's, particularly SEVEN DAYS IN MAY, where he uses the same deep-focus techniques to exceptional effect. Again, no special effects employed, only a stopped-down lens and copious amounts of light. Frankenheimer and his cinematographer, Ellsworth Fredericks, had an advantage over Welles and Toland: faster film stocks and lenses, and one big disadvantage: they had to light a (flat; spherical lenses) 1:1.85 frame, meaning more of the set had to be lit brightly, whereas KANE was 1:1.37. In the end, as to the amount of light needed for each fill, it was probably a wash.

Most directors know how to compose a frame side to side and top to bottom, but only a really superior director, like Welles and Frankenheimer, can compose a shot front-to-back in such an exquisite way that it becomes a key component in the story-telling process.
post #21 of 193
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollowbrook Drive-In View Post

Quote:
Possibly I'm being a bit simplistic. A normal diopter would leave an area where the differential must be well hidden. If one examines, for example, the shot in which Kane is signing off on turning over the paper -- Thatcher behind desk at left in MS, Bernstein at R in BCU, there seems to be no line of demarkation. The shot appears perfect in every respect. The use of the word "diopter," at least for those who know photography seemed to be the easiest way to explain in a forum atmosphere.

RAH

What you're describing are traveling mattes, and the film is full of them and practically every other kind of special optical effect developed to that time, including glass shots and the Schufftan Process, but not for the scenes you and the others refer to.

There's no line of demarcation between Kane, Thatcher and Bernstein because there's no matte or split field -- it's all just deep focus, a technique sadly all but lost today in a cinematic world where the typical practice is to photograph two-shots from forty feet away using a telephoto lens.

I would direct your attention to John Frankenheimer's films of the early-mid 1960's, particularly SEVEN DAYS IN MAY, where he uses the same deep-focus techniques to exceptional effect. Again, no special effects employed, only a stopped-down lens and copious amounts of light. Frankenheimer and his cinematographer, Ellsworth Fredericks, had an advantage over Welles and Toland: faster film stocks and lenses, and one big disadvantage: they had to light a (flat; spherical lenses) 1:1.85 frame, meaning more of the set had to be lit brightly, whereas KANE was 1:1.37. In the end, as to the amount of light needed for each fill, it was probably a wash.

Most directors know how to compose a frame side to side and top to bottom, but only a really superior director, like Welles and Frankenheimer, can compose a shot front-to-back in such an exquisite way that it becomes a key component in the story-telling process.
 


If what you're suggesting is correct, that would account for the overall quality of the image.  With apologies for inattentiveness, my mind is not functioning on all cylinders at the moment, as I'm spending most of my time editing into the wee hours.  I presume the shot would have to be taken with a 35 or less with Bernstein not more than a foot or so from the camera, and would account for the effect of Welles coming in from the background right. 

 

Toland's work, what there is of it, is a master's class in cinematography.  Long Voyage Home is beautifully shot, as are The Westerner, Little Foxes, Best Years of Our Lives and the magnificent Song of the South.  Checking his CV, he started shooting in 1926, at the age of 22 on The Bat, and spent the next 22 years shooting great films.  Had he survived, I love to think of what he might have done in large format.

 

BTW, welcome to HTF.  If you'll take over this thread, I can work for a bit.

 

RAH

 

post #22 of 193
True story....the first time I had a chance to see Citizen Kane was on AMC back in 1988, back when they showed uninterrupted movies. I set my VCR to record it, and left for my night shift at work. I got home, and excited to see the movie, I rewound it and pressed play.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
The tape ran out just before Rosebud was revealed.

I had to buy the movie on VHS to see the ending. I did not have a laserdisc player back then.
post #23 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollowbrook Drive-In View Post


....it's all just deep focus, a technique sadly all but lost today in a cinematic world where the typical practice is to photograph two-shots from forty feet away using a telephoto lens.

I would direct your attention to John Frankenheimer's films of the early-mid 1960's, particularly SEVEN DAYS IN MAY, where he uses the same deep-focus techniques to exceptional effect. Again, no special effects employed, only a stopped-down lens and copious amounts of light. Frankenheimer and his cinematographer, Ellsworth Fredericks, had an advantage over Welles and Toland: faster film stocks and lenses, and one big disadvantage: they had to light a (flat; spherical lenses) 1:1.85 frame, meaning more of the set had to be lit brightly, whereas KANE was 1:1.37. In the end, as to the amount of light needed for each fill, it was probably a wash.

Most directors know how to compose a frame side to side and top to bottom, but only a really superior director, like Welles and Frankenheimer, can compose a shot front-to-back in such an exquisite way that it becomes a key component in the story-telling process.

Technical savvy and lucid thinking. I love this post.

What you describe -- deep focus, contoured lighting, composing from back to front, choosing the focal length that's right for the composition instead of the reverse -- is the foundation of stereoscopic cinematography. Citizen Kane is a three-dimensional film shot with only one lens instead of two.

Why is it more difficult to light for flat spherical lenses? Weren't all the great films of the 1940s and 1950s spherical? Didn't Toland work exclusively with flat spherical lenses?
Edited by Richard--W - 8/30/11 at 7:35pm
post #24 of 193
I think he wasn't referencing the use of spherical lenses, so much as the advent of the wider screen as contributing to the less favorable use of deep focus, because you had to compose wider, and light a greater area, which became intolerable, given how much light is demanded for deep focus.
post #25 of 193
Oh, I can't wait to get my hands on this.
post #26 of 193
are the errors from the dvd gone on this blu-ray?

there where some missing objects on the dvd due to the automated dirt removal. if so, i gladly upgrade smile.gif
post #27 of 193

Yes, the objects are back. smile.gif

post #28 of 193
Quote:
Technical savvy and lucid thinking. I love this post.

What you describe -- deep focus, contoured lighting, composing from back to front, choosing the focal length that's right for the composition instead of the reverse -- is the foundation of stereoscopic cinematography. Citizen Kane is a three-dimensional film shot with only one lens instead of two.

Why is it more difficult to light for flat spherical lenses? Weren't all the great films of the 1940s and 1950s spherical? Didn't Toland work exclusively with flat spherical lenses?

Last first: Of course Toland only worked with spherical lenses; he didn't survive into the anamorphic era, dying in 1948.

Secondly: Although much is made of his work on KANE, Toland's eight-film association with the great William Wyler is really more notable. It was, supposedly, that work with Wyler (whose films Welles greatly admired) that led Welles to request Toland as his cinematographer on KANE.

Third: As for "the foundation of stereoscopic cinematography," it's interesting that you should put it that way. Though I'm not blind in one eye like John Ford, Raoul Walsh or Andre de Toth (and no eye-patch), I am without depth perception (a defect not of the eyes, but the brain, which simply cannot process three-dimensional information). It may be precisely why I have my (I think) keen appreciation of the film frame not a mere up-and-down, left-and-right proscenium, but as a three-dimensional box that demands it be filled and explored just so.

Have you ever watched a baseball game on television in which an outfielder makes a leaping catch of a long fly ball at the wall and the play-by-play announcer exclaims breathlessly that the outfielder "took away a home run?" I'd say that, oh, eighty-five percent of the time that fly ball, unimpeded, would have actually landed inside the ball park -- no home run. The problem arises when someone, like the sportscaster, has to rely on a two-dimensional image (such as on his TV monitor -- exacerbated by the TV camera's long lens -- or a pair of binoculars) and is deprived of his normal stereoscopic vision. He can't judge distances properly, so it looks to him like s home run, when it really isn't. By contrast, a person with no depth perception must always judge distances differently, via relative sizes and extrapolated movement. A two-dimensional image on a TV or movie screen is, for people like me, no different from looking at real life, where we must react and make decisions based on a somewhat different set of stimuli from those the stereoscopically-sighted enjoy (fear not: I can throw a wad of paper and have it arrive in the wastebasket, shoot a basketball or throw a baseball with precision).

The short of it, then: the Fords, Walshes and de Toths of this world may actually be better suited to arranging the elements within that box, though I think the key attribute isn't the quality of one's eyesight, but the realization that when it's done it can maximize the medium's potential.
Edited by Hollowbrook Drive-In - 8/31/11 at 2:50pm
post #29 of 193
Avid, welcome to the HTF. Hopefully you can stick around I look forward to more informative posts.

I've seen Kane before but once I get a hold of the blu version it will be like seeing it for the first time.

I hope this topic continues to have info on the filming process of the movie and points out to us the things we should look for, like smaller details that us regular folks wouldn't know about.
post #30 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollowbrook Drive-In View Post

Quote:
Technical savvy and lucid thinking. I love this post.

What you describe -- deep focus, contoured lighting, composing from back to front, choosing the focal length that's right for the composition instead of the reverse -- is the foundation of stereoscopic cinematography. Citizen Kane is a three-dimensional film shot with only one lens instead of two.

Why is it more difficult to light for flat spherical lenses? Weren't all the great films of the 1940s and 1950s spherical? Didn't Toland work exclusively with flat spherical lenses?

Last first: Of course Toland only worked with spherical lenses; he didn't survive into the anamorphic era, dying in 1948.

Well, yes, that's my point.

Your observation that today's directors think composition means to shoot groups from forty feet away with a telephoto is sadly true. They also know how to pan and track from left to right, but how much talent does that take.

Regarding John Frankenheimer, he rarely worked with the same dp twice, but all his films in the early 1960s were shot with wide angles and deep focus in a 1.66 and 1.85 frame. He talked about his preference for deep focus, wide angles and monochrome in an address to AFI students a transcript of which I believe is on file in the library there. Frankenheimer and his dp's had the advantage of improved lenses, faster emulsions, and brighter, cooler more portable lights than Toland and Welles had in 1941. Technology changed in twenty years. With those advantages do you really think 1.66 and 1.85 needed significantly more light than the 1:33. If it were Cinemascope or Panavision, I'm sure you'd be right. The key here is that Frankenheimer and Ellsworth Fredericks are composing from back to front in Seven Days In May. They entice the eye to look into the frame and pull the drama, and the action, toward the camera. Or they start in the foreground and go in. It's not a left-right composition although there is some of that, too. There are pushes and pulls and pans and dutch angles when there needs to be.

To my eye, the most amazing sequence in Citizen Kane starts at about 18:50 minutes in, and ends at about 22:53 minutes (on WB's two-disc Special Edition, NTSC), or from the moment of the dissolve off the white page into the snow, ending at the dissolve from snow covering the sled into the wrapping paper coming off the sled. Dramatically, a lot of information is being conveyed that is complemented with physical business in two stunning uninterrupted camera set-ups that last only 4 minutes in total. Everybody should stop what they're doing and watch this sequence.

I see the influence of Welles and Toland on Birdman of Alcatraz (1962), The Manchurian Candidate (1962) especially, Seven Days In May (1963), The Train (1964), and Seconds (1966). These would be perfect stereoscopic films, providing that blurred backgrounds could be avoided.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollowbrook Drive-In View Post

Secondly: Although much is made of his work on KANE, Toland's eight-film association with the great William Wyler is really more notable. It was, supposedly, that work with Wyler (whose films Welles greatly admired) that led Welles to request Toland as his cinematographer on KANE.


Welles said Toland came to him and asked for the job. Perhaps Toland's work with Wyler is more notable, but it's not as flamboyant as his work with Orson Welles. Citizen Kane is flamboyant, so it gets noticed. It constantly startles the mind and entices the eye with its acutely visual storytelling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollowbrook Drive-In View Post

Third: As for "the foundation of stereoscopic cinematography," it's interesting that you should put it that way. Though I'm not blind in one eye like John Ford, Raoul Walsh or Andre de Toth (and no eye-patch), I am without depth perception (a defect not of the eyes, but the brain, which simply cannot process three-dimensional information). It may be precisely why I have my (I think) keen appreciation of the film frame not a mere up-and-down, left-and-right proscenium, but as a three-dimensional box that demands it be filled and explored just so.
...
The short of it, then: the Fords, Walshes and de Toths of this world may actually be better suited to arranging the elements within that box, though I think the key attribute isn't the quality of one's eyesight, but the realization that when it's done it can maximize the medium's potential.


The director or cameraman who understands composition already has the tools to learn the stereoscopic discipline. It's not a steep learning curve, in any case. Ford never directed a stereoscopic film, although he worked with dp Winton C. Hoch (on The Searchers, for instance) who invented a stereoscopic camera and advocated stereoscopic cinema. Raoul Walsh and Andre de Toth may have been blind in one eye, but they worked with brilliant dp's and brilliant stereoscopic engineers who checked and balanced each other's work. In other words, the director's eye, or eyes, were not the only eye, or eyes, on the set. Impaired vision does not preclude three-dimensional staging if you know and apply the principles. You may not be able to see the results, but you can definitely direct a stereoscopic film with one eye.
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