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A few words about...™ The Lord of the Rings Trilogy - Extended Edition -- in Blu-ray

post #1 of 1103
6/14/11 at 11:12am
Thread Starter 

How many films truly endure decades and the test of time?

 

Casablanca, Lawrence of Arabia, The Godfather, The Wizard of Oz, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Gone with the Wind…

 

Think about it.  

 

How many films are purposefully passed down from parent to child, generation to generation, as something that has attained a sense of wonderment, and endures that passage of time.

 

From the masterworks of J.R.R Tolkien, filmmaker Peter Jackson has created a motion picture trilogy that not only has that quality to endure, but now Warner Home Video has brought Mr. Jackson’s work to Blu-ray as he wishes them to be seen.

 

The imagery and audio of these new editions are not only problem free, but have a very special majesty and exultation about them-- perfect in every frame.

 

Make no mistake.  The new Blu-rays of Peter Jackson’s Lord of the Rings trilogy on Blu-ray are a ceaseless wonder that will survive the generations.  They demand your attention.

 

Colin McKenzie would be pleased.

 

Very Highly Recommended.

 

RAH

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Gear mentioned in this thread:

The Lord of the Rings: The Motion Picture Trilogy (Extended Edition + Digital Copy)...
post #2 of 1103
6/14/11 at 11:15am

I'll be interested to hear your impression of the newly "greened" Fellowship of the Ring.


Edited by Jarod M - 6/14/11 at 11:27am
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post #3 of 1103
6/14/11 at 11:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarod M View Post

I'll be interested to hear your impression of the newly "greened" Fellowship of the Ring.


+1
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post #4 of 1103
6/14/11 at 12:30pm

The "theatrical" Blu-ray was transfered from a 35mm film-out-  so basically, you have a 2K Digital Intermediate for most of the film, that gets recorded back out to film, then they rescanned that outputted negative.  If they went back to the 2K DI files here like Robert says they did, then this would be the intended color timing.  When you do a scan/film-out/re-scan of the film-out, you're asking for anomalies to pop up.

 

Vincent

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post #5 of 1103
6/14/11 at 12:40pm

Why on Earth would they have done that? Wouldn't it have been both easier and cheaper to go straight from the DI?

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post #6 of 1103
6/14/11 at 12:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Worth View Post

Why on Earth would they have done that? Wouldn't it have been both easier and cheaper to go straight from the DI?



The first film wasn't completely finished as a DI.  Between 70-80% of the film was, the rest color-timed photochemically, and the conversion from Super-35 to anamorphic was done optically.  THE TWO TOWERS and THE RETURN OF THE KING, on the other hand, were completed entirely as DIs.

 

Vincent

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post #7 of 1103
6/14/11 at 12:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent_P View Post

The "theatrical" Blu-ray was transfered from a 35mm film-out-  so basically, you have a 2K Digital Intermediate for most of the film, that gets recorded back out to film, then they rescanned that outputted negative.  If they went back to the 2K DI files here like Robert says they did, then this would be the intended color timing.  When you do a scan/film-out/re-scan of the film-out, you're asking for anomalies to pop up.

 

Vincent


Some of these anomalies have been illustrated by several screenshots comparing the theatrical Blu-ray to the EE Blu-ray.  It's not what most people were expecting, especially those people used to the DVDs and the theatrical Blu-ray.  What's better?  Obviously that's subjective, and some people will simply defer to whatever judgment has been made by the filmmakers, but based on the screenshots alone, it is perplexing to say the least.

 

Another question, which no one has really answered as far as I know, is whether FOTR matches up with the flashback shots in TTT.

 

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post #8 of 1103
6/14/11 at 1:00pm

You got to understand Fellowship of the Ring was like the second or third movie ever to use a DI and they hadn't quite figured how to utilize it to its full potential. That said, I'd love to know exactly if this green cast only affects the DI scenes or is the whole movie?

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post #9 of 1103
6/14/11 at 2:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent_P View Post


The first film wasn't completely finished as a DI.  Between 70-80% of the film was, the rest color-timed photochemically, and the conversion from Super-35 to anamorphic was done optically.  THE TWO TOWERS and THE RETURN OF THE KING, on the other hand, were completed entirely as DIs.

 

Vincent


So, for the new Blu-ray, Warner went back to the DI for that 70-80% of the film?  What about the rest of it?  How was it transferred to Blu-ray?  I know relatively little about how movies are transferred, and am trying to get a clear picture of what it entails in this case.

 

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post #10 of 1103
6/14/11 at 2:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent_P View Post





The first film wasn't completely finished as a DI.  Between 70-80% of the film was, the rest color-timed photochemically, and the conversion from Super-35 to anamorphic was done optically.  THE TWO TOWERS and THE RETURN OF THE KING, on the other hand, were completed entirely as DIs.

 

Vincent


I think you have the ratio backwards. About 70% of the film was done with traditional photochemical color timing. A few select scenes were timed in a computer, really as a test for the future installments.

Doug

Edit: I think you actually maybe right on the ratio, I found this on line, but can't verify how true it is.
Quote:
About 3,100 shots (78% of the Super 35 film) were color graded at Colorfront in Wellington, NZ using 5D Colossus software after being scanned by an Imagica XE scanner full 2K resolution (2048*1536). The color-graded shots were then recorded on Kodak 5242 intermediate film by two Arri Laser film recorders at 10 bits per channel. Because only 78% of the film was digital, a digitally squeezed anamorphic print could not be made for the whole movie. Instead, the digital shots were recorded on an inter-negative hardmatted at 1.77:1, intercut with the non-digital original negative (which had been color timed by The Film Unit, NZ), and printed to 2.39:1 anamorphic Kodak film using an optical printer at Deluxe, LA. Fuji 3519-D was used for release prints.

However this would indicate that about 78% of the film was at least 3 very odd generations away from the the ON even before release prints were made, which might explain why the film looks so different from the other two on the theatrical blu-ray release.
Edited by Douglas Monce - 6/14/11 at 3:15pm
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post #11 of 1103
6/14/11 at 3:02pm

Does this "new look" represent the original theatrical look? I actually don't remember the movie looking anything like this in the intro sequence (talking about The Shire green cast comparison clip on Youtube). confused.gif

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post #12 of 1103
6/14/11 at 3:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flemming.K View Post

Does this "new look" represent the original theatrical look? I actually don't remember the movie looking anything like this in the intro sequence (talking about The Shire green cast comparison clip on Youtube). confused.gif


Well, FOTR EE is showing in theaters across the country tonight, correct?  Perfect opportunity for a comparison. :)

 

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post #13 of 1103
6/14/11 at 3:34pm

There is no way the mountain snow scene should look like this or ever did in the theater! 

 

snow.gif

 

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post #14 of 1103
6/14/11 at 3:34pm
Thread Starter 

I believe the point is that footage that went through the DI process is represented in the new Blu-ray as a scanned, combined and corrected element, meaning before recording out to a printing negative.  Much of this would be dependent upon how the final printing negs were conformed.  If a master negative combining DI footage with original negative was cut, that negative would have gone through two more generations before being printed for theatrical use.  I'm presuming that the earlier Blu-ray was created by scanning an IP, which means that we're going back two generations to pre-record data.

 

RAH

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post #15 of 1103
6/14/11 at 4:26pm

Robert, just to confirm the IP is 1 generation from the OCN, the IN is two generations from the OCN and a print is 4 generations way from the OCN.   

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post #16 of 1103
6/14/11 at 4:58pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PRO-630HD View Post

Robert, just to confirm the IP is 1 generation from the OCN, the IN is two generations from the OCN and a print is 4 generations way from the OCN.   


Correct.  Normally, today, when you go to a theater and are not viewing a DI, you're watching a fourth gen element.

 

RAH

 

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post #17 of 1103
6/14/11 at 5:49pm

Everyone please leave Robert alone so he can actually sit down and watch the movies!  smile.gif The whole world is waiting to hear more of his few words about LOTR EE!

 

Robert, It has been suggested that a good way to compare color-timing changes is to compare flashback scenes used in the later films with the same scenes in FOTR.

 

Look, there I went and didn't follow my own advice.  smile.gif

 

Mark

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post #18 of 1103
6/14/11 at 6:18pm

I know I talked about this, and I'm bringing it up again..not because I'm complaining but because I'm truly wondering what causes it. I noticed it on the TE blu-rays of LOTR and other transfers (mostly dvds), including the blu-ray of It's a Wonderful Life. What causes faint vertical lines at the edge of the picture when the monitor is set to no overscan? Is it on the film? Is it because there is no more data? A digital artifact? On scope movies, it even cuts into the black bars. Thanks.

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post #19 of 1103
6/14/11 at 6:22pm
Thread Starter 

I'm not going to be able to find the time to view all of these.

 

That said, if someone would care to give me timecodes from previous releases, I'd be happy to give things a quick look.

 

As far as the same footage being used in multiple films for flashbacks, since I don't know the filmmakers, I'm unable to say that

they didn't want things a certain way.  Or it could be an error.  Not an expert on these films.  Far too new.

 

So far I'm very pleased.

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post #20 of 1103
6/14/11 at 6:51pm

More fuel for the fire...   A video featuring Jackson and Lesnie discussing the digital color grading done to the theatrical release of FOTR.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4zRMLbZZxw

 

After watching that video, I find the color-timing on my theatrical edition Blu-rays to be a lot closer to what Jackson and Lesnie seemed to be after, versus the screen caps we are seeing (mostly on other sites) of the supposed extended edition Blu-rays.  In the video, they discuss adding more of a golden hue to the shire (Hobbiton) to bring out the greens, rather than just pumping up the green.  That golden hue is how the theatrical Blu-ray looks compared the extended edition screen caps.

 

Mark

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post #21 of 1103
6/14/11 at 7:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris View Post

I'm not going to be able to find the time to view all of these.

 

That said, if someone would care to give me timecodes from previous releases, I'd be happy to give things a quick look.

 

As far as the same footage being used in multiple films for flashbacks, since I don't know the filmmakers, I'm unable to say that

they didn't want things a certain way.  Or it could be an error.  Not an expert on these films.  Far too new.

 

So far I'm very pleased.


Robert,

 

Please take a closer look at the scene when Gandalf first arrives at Bilbo Baggins' front door in Fellowship of the Ring.  During one closeup of Gandalf's face, the clouds have disappeared and it's nothing but blue sky behind him.  On the EE Blu-ray, is the sky behind him a realistic shade of blue?  Does his robe and beard appear to have an excessive green tint?

 

The screen caps that have been circulating for the last couple of days show (what most are agreeing is) too much of a green or cyan tint to the entire image, particularly during any scenes in the shire.

 

This video of the scene in question supposedly shows the comparison of the theatrical edition Blu-ray to the extended edition Blu-ray:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vwcm-73kZE8

 

Supposedly, the green or cyan tint is something that Jackson approved.  If the EE Blu-ray looks like the left side of that video, I find it very very hard to believe that Jackson gave it the OK.

 

Mark

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post #22 of 1103
6/14/11 at 8:30pm

Bill Hunt's review is up at the Bits:

 

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/reviewshd/bdreviews061411.html

 

He gives 19 (out of 20) to all three films for PQ. Says they really benefit from being split over two discs. 

 

Here's what he says re: the color timing:

 

 

Quote:
Colors are pleasing too, though it's worth noting that the color timing for these films has been redone. I've confirmed with production-related sources that Jackson and cinematographer Andrew Lesnie were directly involved in all decisions related to this new transfer and approved it personally. So to the extent that there are changes to the color-timing, they were made at Jackson and Lesnie's direction - the films look exactly as they want them to.

 

Has the source of these screen grabs been identified? I haven't read anything yet that attributes the grabs to any particular site or reviewer.

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post #23 of 1103
6/14/11 at 8:31pm

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post #24 of 1103
6/14/11 at 9:28pm

It's MIDDLE EARTH-  a fictional fantasy realm populated by Wizards, Orks, Hobbits, Dragons, various demons, etc. etc. etc...

 

It's NOT SUPPOSED to look like reality!

 

Vincent
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by litlgi74 View Post

There is no way the mountain snow scene should look like this or ever did in the theater! 

 

snow.gif

 



 

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post #25 of 1103
6/14/11 at 11:44pm

Here is a closer... more detailed examination of the differences between the FOTR EE BD and TTT EE BD (flash back) scenes... as well as other comparisons.

 

 

FOTR EE BD vs TTT EE BD (Flash Back) The FOTR EE BD is way when compared with the FOTR EE DVD
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/59615

FOTR TE BD vs TTT TE BD (Flash Back) What most would have expected after seeing the EE DVDs (see next link) 
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/59616

and just for kicks...

FOTR EE DVD vs TTT EE DVD (Flash Back)
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/59620



Check out the massive differences between FOTR TE BD vs FOTR EE BD... very little in TTT TE BD vs TTT EE BD

FOTR TE BD vs FOTR EE BD
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/59618

TTT TE BD vs TTT EE BD
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/59619 



And if you really want to fry your brain... Check out these DVD Vs BDs (I increased the resolution ob the DVDs to 1080p in PS...) the levels were bumped up when saving because of the format change. 

FOTR EE DVD vs FOTR EE BD... Look how dramatic the color and density shifts are between the two... just like in FOTR TE BD vs FOTR EE BD.
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/59622

FOTR EE DVD vs FOTR TE BD... I think it's important to not that the color really doesn't change much in this comparison.
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/59625

TTT EE DVD vs TTT EE BD... nor does the color really doesn't change much in this comparison.
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/59623



But let us not forget where blue snow cones come from...

FOTR TE BD vs FOTR EE BD
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/59621

In summary... the only version that sticks out like a sore thumb when compared with all the other editions... is FOTR EE BD.
__________________
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post #26 of 1103
6/15/11 at 1:42am


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent_P View Post

It's MIDDLE EARTH-  a fictional fantasy realm populated by Wizards, Orks, Hobbits, Dragons, various demons, etc. etc. etc...

 

It's NOT SUPPOSED to look like reality!

 

Vincent
 



 


laugh.gif

 

Yeah. Middle Earth is supposed to look like the Transformers, which is supposed to look like Captain America, which is supposed to look like Rise Of The Planet Of The Apes, which is supposed to look like every other mother f*#@king movie out there now.

 

Nothing takes me out of a movie these days faster than seeing all this hyper unnatural color grading. It's like movies are being made for children with very limited palates. Everything is either super sweet or super sour. No place any more for nuance and subtlety.

 

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post #27 of 1103
6/15/11 at 4:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Booth View Post

More fuel for the fire...   A video featuring Jackson and Lesnie discussing the digital color grading done to the theatrical release of FOTR.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4zRMLbZZxw

 

After watching that video, I find the color-timing on my theatrical edition Blu-rays to be a lot closer to what Jackson and Lesnie seemed to be after, versus the screen caps we are seeing (mostly on other sites) of the supposed extended edition Blu-rays.  In the video, they discuss adding more of a golden hue to the shire (Hobbiton) to bring out the greens, rather than just pumping up the green.  That golden hue is how the theatrical Blu-ray looks compared the extended edition screen caps.

 

Mark


Cool interview

 

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post #28 of 1103
6/15/11 at 5:13am
Thread Starter 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Booth View Post

Robert,

 

Please take a closer look at the scene when Gandalf first arrives at Bilbo Baggins' front door in Fellowship of the Ring.  During one closeup of Gandalf's face, the clouds have disappeared and it's nothing but blue sky behind him.  On the EE Blu-ray, is the sky behind him a realistic shade of blue?  Does his robe and beard appear to have an excessive green tint?

 

The screen caps that have been circulating for the last couple of days show (what most are agreeing is) too much of a green or cyan tint to the entire image, particularly during any scenes in the shire.

 

This video of the scene in question supposedly shows the comparison of the theatrical edition Blu-ray to the extended edition Blu-ray:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vwcm-73kZE8

 

Supposedly, the green or cyan tint is something that Jackson approved.  If the EE Blu-ray looks like the left side of that video, I find it very very hard to believe that Jackson gave it the OK.

 

Mark


To my eye, there may be a point or two toward cyan-blue, but nothing like what I'm seeing in the youtube example.  Skies are generally a pleasant blue, flesh tones, even for non-humans are normal, greens are strong.  I presume they're not in Kansas anymore.

 

Detail is superb, recognizing the fact that we're dealing with 2k.

 

I'm seeing no problems whatsoever.  A beautiful and satisfying image.

 

Projected via a JVC RS50 recently tuned by my go-to expert Kevin Miller, on a Stewart white 1.3.  Here's documentation:

 

 

 

 

Harris - ISF Miller.pdf 476k .pdf file

 

 

RAH

 

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post #29 of 1103
6/15/11 at 5:40am
Thread Starter 

Quote:


Bill Hunt's review is up at the Bits:

 

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/reviewshd/bdreviews061411.html

 

He gives 19 (out of 20) to all three films for PQ. Says they really benefit from being split over two discs. 

 

Here's what he says re: the color timing:

 

 

 

Has the source of these screen grabs been identified? I haven't read anything yet that attributes the grabs to any particular site or reviewer.

 

I concur with Mr. Hunt.

 

RAH
 

 

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post #30 of 1103
6/15/11 at 6:07am

Hello Mr. Harris,

 

So you are saying with your version of FOTR...

 

You don't see the tremendous color change from TE to EE?

 

Which what does your snow look like, White (TE), or Cyan (EE)?

 

FOTR TE BD vs FOTR EE BD
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/59621

 

Thanks

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Home Theater Forum › Home Theater Forum › Blu-ray, DVD, Streaming Video and Digital Downloads › Blu-ray › A Few Words About By Robert Harris › A few words about...™ The Lord of the Rings Trilogy - Extended Edition -- in Blu-ray