2 'lesser quality' subs = 1 'good' sub?

2 lesser subs = louder, lower quality bass.  A 2nd sub adds no more extension or really lowers the distortion.

1 better sub = better extension (plays lower) and lower distortion.

BIC is a great sub for the price.  Side by side, the SVS NSD will beat BIC in every aspect.

I'm on a budget as well and SVS isn't really something I can spend money on.  That's why I went DIY.  For a little more than a BIC, you can get close to SVS NSD quality.  I took it a step further and spent almost as much as an SVS Ultra would have cost me and I have something that will beat it easily in both output and extension.

First, we start with your budget.  Give me the highest number you can give and I won't go a penny over it.  I will assume that you have all the tools or access to the tools necessary to build an enclosure.  $30 for MDF.  $20 for paint and misc supplies.

Second, constraints.  Can you live with an enclosure the size of a stand up refrigerator?  More than likely, you will end up with a sub like this - http://www.danmarx.org/audioinnovation/tcsounds.html .  Here's a smaller example - http://www.danmarx.org/audioinnovation/tc3000.html .  You are trading off size and efficiency for a smaller sub.  In the smaller sub, you need a better driver, much more power and some EQ to get the same response.  Also, here are some plans for similar sized subs - http://www.creativesound.ca/pdf/SubDuction-plans-290307.pdf .  Do you have the skills to build one of these designs?

Another option is a cylinder sub.  Construction is easier but it is slightly more expensive to since you have to buy a piece of sonotube - http://home.comcast.net/~audio-worx/page93PetesTube.html .

I went with DIY, and couldn't be happier.  FWIW - my 15" Dayton is in a roughly 23" cube - which is a huge box once it is completed.  Very low on WAF, but man, it's incredible.  No way could I have anything that even comes close to the performance of this had I bought something for the same money. 

Here's John's thread - http://www.hometheaterforum.com/forum/thread/297229/dayton-rss390hf-4-15-reference-hf-build

The driver is $160 - http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=295-468

The amp - $325 - http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-807

2 ports - $20 - http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=268-350

$505 shipped to your door for all the parts.  Expect output and quality that is closer if not better than the current SVS Plus series.

As a comparison here is my sub setup:

Amp - http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?PartNumber=248-748

EQ - http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=248-656

Dual subs - http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=293-642

If you lived close to me, I'm in the process of making a set of "clone" subs with this design - http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20060208020652/http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-cyl-csplus3.cfm .  I picked up a pair of the used SVS 12" Plus drivers.  I should have end caps painted and cylinder carpeted this weekend.

Are you going with the Dayton sub and amp like John did?  Is $500 shipped to your door acceptable?  If the answer is yes to both, you can build something like John did.  You could drop down and use a 12" drive.  You go go nuts and use an 18" or 21".

The plans I posted are more for ideas and construction techniques.  You need no more than LxWxH.  As long as you can use a ruler and cut a straight line, you can build a sub.

The tuning of the sub enclosure is based on the diameter, length and number of ports.  John has already calculated that with his design.  If he would be kind enough to post dimensions, that would be great.  Otherwise, I can calculate that.  I'll also convert it to a cut sheet.

If the wife is reluctant to go with such a large box, how about a pair of smaller boxes?  Dual 1.5 cubic foot boxes loaded with 12's and a pro amp to power them is another option.  Or maybe a beefier 12" and a better amp.  We've got the budget, let the wife set the constraints and we will go from there.

I don't have the original dimensions, but as best as I can remember the box is a cube, internally 21.5".  Two 3" flared ports, I think 16 or 17" long (I used the kits from PE and didn't cut any length off).  The box came in right at 5ft^3 after taking out bracing, amp, and sub volume.  I think it is tuned to 18-20hz, somewhere along there.  I basically just played around with the calculator on precision sound products' website until I made it work with what I had in mind, concerning tuning, size, etc.  FWIW, I run the gain on the amp at less than 1/4 and it is ridiculous at even that level :)

I initially purchased the BASH 300w amp, which is a good bit cheaper than the PE500 but sent it back after looking at the required soldering. 

Many thanks to Robert for the help with that build!

Bass is all about moving air.  The cone area of a pair of 12's is roughly the same size as an 18.  You can design 12's to play as low as you want them to.

The cost of a pair of 12's will be more than a 15 so let's think about a pair of sealed subs with a pro audio amp.  That will allow you to properly power them without eating into the budget.  Give me a little time to think on this and I'll post some ideas.

You will need the following:

a pair of RE Audio SRx 12's (Ebay item 200583120362) = $254.38

Behringer A-500 (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=248-749 ) = $250.99

2 sets of speaker terminals (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=260-283 ) = $8

1 sheet of MDF = $30

Build the 1st design in these plans = http://www.creativesound.ca/pdf/SubDuction-plans-290307.pdf .  You can get 2 enclosures out of one sheet of MDF.

The amp will feed each sub about 300w.  I chose these subs because of their low Qts, Vas and Fs values.  They also come from a reputable manufacturer.

D2 = dual 2 ohm.  That means each driver has a pair of 2 ohm coils.  Wired in series for a final load of 4 ohms.  Wired in parallel for a final load of 1 ohm.  It gives the user options for wiring.

Construction is exactly the same.  Find a proven design.  The crossover required soldering skills but I've taught that to people in 10 minutes.  Here are the main speakers I am working on - http://www.speakerbuilder.net/web_files/Projects/D3/dayton3.htm

My current speakers are a center DIII (see above) and a pair of DII's - http://www.speakerbuilder.net/web_files/Projects/D2/d2main.htm

As you can see from the DIII diagrams, the construction is really easy.  It's a box with a single brace / port flare.  Before you glue the front on, you glue in the crossovers.  I've spent more time finishing them with automotive paint (Bondo, sand, primer, sand, primer, sand, paint, paint, paint, clear, clear, clear) than it took building the box.

If you need smaller, I have plans.  If you need massive towers, I have plans.  Any of these will easily beat speakers from Best Buy and other big box stores.  If you want to go critical listening then you can as well if your budget will handle it.

The Tri-Trix gets great reviews - http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-702   http://www.parts-express.com/projectshowcase/indexn.cfm?project=Tritrix

You can build a taller cabinet for the DIII and make a tower out of it.  Just seal off the top portion to keep the internal volume the same or you will mess up the tuning frequency of the port.

The Dayton 8 rocks but it is the largest of the tower designs - http://www.angelfire.com/music5/audio0/

Other PE projects - http://www.parts-express.com/projectshowcase/projectindex.cfm

db's speaker designs - https://sites.google.com/a/dslextreme.com/dbrown/home/speakers  His db61tl is in the Project Showcase.  He has designs using both the Dayton Classic drivers (budget) and the newer Dayton RS drivers ($$$).

I think that any of db's or Wayne's designs will compete in quality.  Compete with the more sensitive SVS towers, I'd choose at least a dual 6.5" design.

There is nothing magical about SVS speakers compared to any of these designs.  I've seen the build process of speakers that cost $55,000 / pair and it is no different than what I do in my garage.  They have better tools and can crank out a pair a week where it would take me 6 months.  We both use MDF for the box and PVC for the port.  They use factory Porsche paint while I use Rustoleum in a rattle can.  They have someone optimize their crossover design.  I use a published design that has been optimized for my budget.  Like my wife said when we listened to them - "They sound better than our speakers.  But not $54,800 better."

In a perfect world. you would use 5 or 7 identical speakers.  The next step is the front 3 being identical.  It is very rare that anyone does either of these.

Since the Tri-Trix uses the Dayton Classic 6.5" and the silk dome tweeter, I'd go with db's center channel design that uses the same drivers - https://sites.google.com/a/dslextreme.com/dbrown/home/speakers/db616c  The crossover isn't the same but you will be closer to matching that 90% of the systems being used.

Unless you are building a very small speaker, you should build them out of 3/4" MDF.

Speaker building is addictive.  There isn't a day that I'm not listening to my system and I think to myself "Hey self.  I built those and they sound great!"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert_J 

In a perfect world. you would use 5 or 7 identical speakers.  The next step is the front 3 being identical.  It is very rare that anyone does either of these.

 

Since the Tri-Trix uses the Dayton Classic 6.5" and the silk dome tweeter, I'd go with db's center channel design that uses the same drivers - https://sites.google.com/a/dslextreme.com/dbrown/home/speakers/db616c  The crossover isn't the same but you will be closer to matching that 90% of the systems being used.

 

Unless you are building a very small speaker, you should build them out of 3/4" MDF.

 

Speaker building is addictive.  There isn't a day that I'm not listening to my system and I think to myself "Hey self.  I built those and they sound great!"

Actually, the Tri-Trix uses the 5 1/4" version and not the 6 1/2" one  .

I built a pair of these last summer. I bought the cabinets by themselves and then the drivers/tweeters on sale and just used one of the PE pre-assembled two-way crossovers. They turned out to be very nice speakers. The tweeters in particular are very good for the price. I covered the cabinets with country cottage style thin 1/4" knotty pine and stained them in Country Maple. I sold them at the local community college flea-market for $150. Lost a few bucks on them but had a lot of fun building them. But sometimes having fun costs a little money.

As Robert said, ideally you want the front speakers to be as close to each other as possible, but in reality that just isn't possible. If I were building the 8" towers I wouldn't try and build a matching dual 8" center, I'd probably drop down to a dual 6" model (from the same Classic series as the 8") and let Audyssey or MCACC (or whatever) try and smooth out the sound. BTW, my Swan Diva towers and matching C3 center use the exact same drivers/mid-range/tweeters and don't really sound all that much alike so...Maybe it's the difference in cabinet size.

It looks like Robert has been a bad influence on you  ! Just remember, when it comes to speaker size and subwoofer output, he's just plain nuts! (but in a good way  ). But it's nice to see someone else getting into speaker building. I've done a few myself and really like getting creative with cabinet design and appearance while staying true to the internal dimensions.

My next project is going to be real ambitious for me. Dual 8" PE Reference series drivers, a 5" Reference mid and Hi-Vi 1" ring radiating tweeter with a cabinet made from 1 1/4" oak laminate stair boards from Home Depot. I hope PE can help me out with the crossover and cabinet dimensions.

I need to do my research before posting about driver size.  I'm used to seeing the pin cushion shaped 5.25" driver.  I keep forgetting it now comes in a round shape.  Thanks for the correction Gene.  I agree with you about the silk dome tweeters.  They sound like they are worth much more.  If PE can't help you with your crossovers, the guys at the Tech Talk Board can.

My system has the potential for crazy output but I don't turn it up that much.  0db on the volume know is downright scary.  Normal TV with me and the wife is -25db.  Me alone with an action movie is -15db.  I want the potential for overkill so that I don't push my system into distortion.

I build speakers because I like the woodworking and the science behind the design.  That's one reason I've taken my sub building to the next level and I'm actually build the driver from parts.  I just finished my 2nd one last week.  My first was based on a TC Sounds, TC9 magnet structure.  This one was based on a TC Sounds TC7 magnet structure.  I almost have enough parts to build four subs similar to this - http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=293-658 and four subs similar to this  - http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=293-642 . 

http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20050307164250/http://www.wadsnet.com/~dtenney/dayton_8MTM.htm

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=214525&page=2

Looks like Ted's original D8 page has gone.  Even the wayback machine is having trouble finding it.  The crossover information is there so that takes care of most of it.  The cabinet dimensions can be close.