Home Theater Forum › Home Theater Forum › Blu-ray, DVD, Streaming Video and Digital Downloads › Blu-ray › Strange Problem With Star Trek-TMP Blu-ray
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Strange Problem With Star Trek-TMP Blu-ray

post #1 of 31
Thread Starter 

I was watching the movie tonight and came across a strange color issue.  During the Enterprise inspection with Kirk and Scotty, at the 20:02 to 20:11 mark.  The picture is all green.  Specifically, look at the red insignia on the Enterprise hull, it's green instead of red, or at least it is on my copy.  This is the only scene where this occurs.

 

Can someone who has this on Blu-ray, take a look at this scene please?  Was wondering if anyone else has this same problem?  Btw, this was the stand-alone version from Amazon U.K.  As far as I know, it's the same transfer as the U.S. edition.  Thx!

post #2 of 31

It looks that way on my boxset US copy as well.

post #3 of 31
Thread Starter 

Scott, thanks for checking.  It looks as if it's present on all copies then?  I read some reviews, before I purchased the title and I don't recall this problem being mentioned.  With this and other mistakes they made on these transfers, it looks as if Paramount really botched this set. 

 

I hope they get the transfers right with the next boxset (speculation).  Although, I doubt they will ever re-release the theatrical version of the motion picture again.  Oh well. If anyone else has the time or interest, I would appreciate further conformation.  Thx!

post #4 of 31

Just checked this out on my US boxset copy.  My insignias are definitely green.

post #5 of 31

I'm not an expert on this but according to the podcast commentary for the DE of TMP, the original release didn't get a proper color grade in 1979 due to being rushed for the premiere. Its possible that this is a mistake that got left in.

post #6 of 31

I swear I heard something about this in the past, but I can't remember where or when.   Not very helpful, I know.  I did, however, go back and look at the DE DVD and the old VHS "Special Longer Version," and the insignia was definitely red in both.

 

- Mark

post #7 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Dalek View Post

I'm not an expert on this but according to the podcast commentary for the DE of TMP, the original release didn't get a proper color grade in 1979 due to being rushed for the premiere. Its possible that this is a mistake that got left in.



If that's the case, then it should be on the widescreen laserdisc set too, which is also the original theatrical version.  If I think about it, I could check it out tonight - but, I'll probably forget.  However, I don't have the BD to compare it with.

post #8 of 31

Paramount probably thought they'd gotten away with this one...

post #9 of 31
Thread Starter 

Thanks for the feedback guys.  Joel, if you could check your laserdisc that would would be very helpful.  It's interesting that it seems to be correct, on all of the other Home Video versions, well except maybe the laserdisc.  So far, it looks as if it's a problem with there blu-ray release.

 

The expectation I had, when I bought the Blu-ray of the original theatrical, was to not have to purchase it again.   I guess that didn't work out to well.  Maybe I need to call Paramount to advise, and have them get to work fixing it for me.smile.gif

post #10 of 31
Well, I checked out the laserdisc. I guessed about the time since the LD starts it's clock as soon as it starts playing, including 30 seconds of the Paramount Home Video "Feature Presentation" and warning screen.

If the shot in question is the one where the pod is turning to back itself to the docking port and you can see the pennant stripes along the side of secondary hull, then it's all properly red there. In fact, all of the scenes where the markings can be seen looks right. Is there a screen cap somewhere with the problem shot in question?
post #11 of 31
Thread Starter 

Joel, unfortunately I don't have a screen cap of the specific shot.  However, the shot you are describing sounds right.  You can definitely tell it's green on the Blu, so your laserdisc must be correct as well.  I saw the film in theaters back in 79, but of course I can't remember that far back with any specificity.

 

At this point, unless someone has further information, I'll have to assume it's a transfer problem.  The issue is minor but I'm watching on a 106 inch screen, so this coupled with the DNR and it's all rather distracting.  To bad I was unable to rent this version, due to it being currently unavailable.  Thx again!

post #12 of 31
This color problem is interesting and I didn't notice it when I viewed the blu ray.

It's late now, but I have the blu ray, DE DVD, Special Longer laserdisc and widescreen laser disc, and I'd like to check this out tomorrow night. I'll report what I fund, but I suspect I won't see anything different then what's already been reported.
post #13 of 31
Thread Starter 

Nelson, thanks for checking all of those versions for me.  I'll be curious to see what you come up with.  Looking forward to your report.  Thx!

post #14 of 31

I just checked my blu-ray, and my Director’s Cut DVD. The stripe on the blu-ray is green.  Its hard to tell on the DVD, because the whole image is darker, but it looks like the stripe is red there.

However I think the problem you are seeing has something to do with the original optical composite, rather than the video transfer. If you look at the stripe on the top of the travel pod, it is still bright red. I'm wondering if the color was corrected for this on all of the other video versions, but someone just forgot about it this time. Again I have no idea if this problem exists on the original film, but it looks a great deal like a optical problem to me.

 

There are optical compositing issues all through out this film, which is one reason I wish Paramount would allow them to go back to the original elements and digitally re-composite every optical shot when they upgrade the Director's Cut to HD.

 

Doug

post #15 of 31

Found a screen cap of the Blu-ray (thank you Trekcore.com).

 

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tmphd/tmphd0373.jpg 

 

The stripes and circle under the silver arrow are definitely green.  On my laserdisc, it was definitely red.  However, looking at the two stripes at the top of the interconnecting dorsal neck near the saucer, those are still red.  Look at the trailing ends of those two, now "green", pennant stripes and they turn reddish.

 

The latent conspiracy theorist in me wants to say that it looks doctored and purposely changed to green - because everything else in the scene looks right.

 

But, that's probably not what really happend...

 

Yet, I don't think anyone could "fix" just that little bit to look red on the wisescreen laserdisc transfer done back in (I believe) 1991. 

post #16 of 31


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel Fontenot View Post

Found a screen cap of the Blu-ray (thank you Trekcore.com).

 

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tmphd/tmphd0373.jpg 

 

The stripes and circle under the silver arrow are definitely green.  On my laserdisc, it was definitely red.  However, looking at the two stripes at the top of the interconnecting dorsal neck near the saucer, those are still red.  Look at the trailing ends of those two, now "green", pennant stripes and they turn reddish.

 

The latent conspiracy theorist in me wants to say that it looks doctored and purposely changed to green - because everything else in the scene looks right.

 

But, that's probably not what really happend...

 

Yet, I don't think anyone could "fix" just that little bit to look red on the wisescreen laserdisc transfer done back in (I believe) 1991. 


 

The da Vinci Renaissance color correction system was available in 1989 and allowed for the isolation of specific parts of the frame, and specific colors.

 

I don't know if it was used on the transfer for the laserdisc, but it was possible at the time.

 

Doug

post #17 of 31

Great screen cap! And one of the most beautiful miniatures built for a movie.

 

I have the Photostory book for Star Trek TMP. On one page, there is a still from about 2 or 3 frames before the screencap above. While it's smaller and not as sharp, the stripes and emblem look red to me. Plus you can see the ceiling of Space Dock is very blue-ish in the screencap. It is a reddish rust color in the other shots and in the book, so it does look like an optical problem, like all the cyan was taken out. 

 

BTW, This is a really cool book of you happen to own it. It is the theatrical cut obviously and the shots are blow-ups taken from the anamorphic frames as credited in the front pages. Of course this is not any kind of definitive evidence for what is going on, but as the book credits, it is from the film source and the book was published in 1980.

 

Tonight I'll be checking out all my laserdiscs, and DVD's! Plus a video tape from the earliest HBO broadcast if I can find it, from about 1980.

post #18 of 31

I think I have that book, but it's a little paperback-sized version.  Mine's missing the cover as it came from a library sale in the late 80s.

 

Looking at the screen cap, I never would have noticed that in the movie...

post #19 of 31

It looks to me like someone just applied auto colour correction to that shot and didn't look at it too closely.

post #20 of 31


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelson Au View Post

Great screen cap! And one of the most beautiful miniatures built for a movie.

 

I have the Photostory book for Star Trek TMP. On one page, there is a still from about 2 or 3 frames before the screencap above. While it's smaller and not as sharp, the stripes and emblem look red to me. Plus you can see the ceiling of Space Dock is very blue-ish in the screencap. It is a reddish rust color in the other shots and in the book, so it does look like an optical problem, like all the cyan was taken out. 

 

BTW, This is a really cool book of you happen to own it. It is the theatrical cut obviously and the shots are blow-ups taken from the anamorphic frames as credited in the front pages. Of course this is not any kind of definitive evidence for what is going on, but as the book credits, it is from the film source and the book was published in 1980.

 

Tonight I'll be checking out all my laserdiscs, and DVD's! Plus a video tape from the earliest HBO broadcast if I can find it, from about 1980.



I have that book too. Haven't looked at it in years.

 

I just can't figure out why the stripe on the Enterprise would be green, yet the stripe on the shuttle is red.

 

Doug

post #21 of 31
Thread Starter 

Yeah guys, it's definitely strange.  I'm also not sure what to make of it, except it shouldn't look that way.  I was to poor to be able to collect laserdisc's, so I can't check that.  Lasedisc's sure were beautiful works of art.

 

Btw, I also had all of the photo novels including the original television show.  My mother threw all of them away including my Vhs & Beta tapes and many other valuable collectibles, including Star Wars #1 & 2 comics (I think I'm going to be ill).

 

Nelson, I can't believe you have a Vhs recording of TMP off of HBO.  I also recorded it, when it was first aired in 1980 as well.  If I recall correctly, that was the year HBO began broadcasting.  I remember being very excited about HBO, due to being able to watch movies uncut and commercial free.  I feel old.

 

Of course, that can't compare now to having ones own home theater and movies in high definition (or at least some of them).  I fell very fortunate, especially in this economy.  Sorry to get a bit off topic.  It would be nice, if someone on the forum and in the industry, could comment on how this issue could occur.  Joel, thx for the screen cap, a picture is worth a thousand words.

post #22 of 31

I wish I collected those photo novels of TOS!

 

I didn't have HBO and I knew someone who did, so he was nice enough to record it for me, in all it's pan and scan glory! smile.gif I haven't seen that tape in ages!

post #23 of 31
Okay, I've seen Star Trek The Motion Picture Enterprise fly-by 4 times! smile.gif

Before I say anything else, the kids of today have it so good! I watched the full screen Special Longer Version laserdisc from 1987 or so. The image quality was sooo bad! The widescreen laserdisc edition from 1991 looked slightly better. The 2001 DE DVD was a jump in quality. Love the new version of Vulcan, it was hard to see the theatrical version! But the blu ray just blew them all away!

The red stripe and disc on the secondary hull was green and fading to red as it got closer to the rear, and the dock ceiling was bluish green too on the blu ray. I wonder if it could have been blue screen reflections, but I don't think they used blue screen on that sequence.

They were red in all other editions I have. You can still see the mount on the side of Enterprise secondary hull as it leaves space dock on the blu ray.

I can't wait to see the DE on blu ray!

By the way, almost forgot to mention, I had posted screen caps of that shot above for the DE of Star Trek 1 and 2. I posted them because I was surprised how much better that shot looked in TWoK verses TMP. If you're curious, it's here: http://www.hometheaterforum.com/forum/thread/248994/remastered-star-trek-films-anytime-soon#post_3051916
post #24 of 31


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelson Au View Post

Okay, I've seen Star Trek The Motion Picture Enterprise fly-by 4 times! smile.gif

Before I say anything else, the kids of today have it so good! I watched the full screen Special Longer Version laserdisc from 1987 or so. The image quality was sooo bad! The widescreen laserdisc edition from 1991 looked slightly better. The 2001 DE DVD was a jump in quality. Love the new version of Vulcan, it was hard to see the theatrical version! But the blu ray just blew them all away!

The red stripe and disc on the secondary hull was green and fading to red as it got closer to the rear, and the dock ceiling was bluish green too on the blu ray. I wonder if it could have been blue screen reflections, but I don't think they used blue screen on that sequence.

They were red in all other editions I have. You can still see the mount on the side of Enterprise secondary hull as it leaves space dock on the blu ray.

I can't wait to see the DE on blu ray!

By the way, almost forgot to mention, I had posted screen caps of that shot above for the DE of Star Trek 1 and 2. I posted them because I was surprised how much better that shot looked in TWoK verses TMP. If you're curious, it's here: http://www.hometheaterforum.com/forum/thread/248994/remastered-star-trek-films-anytime-soon#post_3051916


I believe you are right. If I recall correctly the dry dock sequence was photographed against black rather than a blue screen.

 

The main difference between the TWOK and the TMP shots, is WOK has proper black and white levels. The contrast is set correctly. The director's cut of TMP has a really dull look to it because everything is gray. There are no solid blacks or whites. As a result WOK LOOK sharper when it really isn't.

 

Doug

post #25 of 31
Thanks Douglas, interesting info about the white levels. Makes sense.

Also, keep in mind, in case it wasn't clear, those screen caps I linked to are from the DE DVDs from back in 2001 and 2002. It does remind me to see how the blu ray compares of WoK to TMP space dock fly by. I'm sure it's likely going to be red.smile.gif
post #26 of 31

I just checked WOK on blu-ray, and the stripe is in fact red. Also looking up at the space dock above the Enterprise, the panel is copper colored rather than blue.

 

Interestingly Daren Dochterman, on the TMP blu-ray commentary, states that the transfer used for the blu-ray is the same one that was made for director’s cut. He said that it’s the only time the color timing was correct, in that the deflector dish of the Enterpriseis amber when they are not at warp, and blue when they are. This was a specific correction that Robert Wise asked them to do for the director’s cut, and that much of that color timing remains in the blu-ray edition. So in actuality, the color timing on this blu-ray was supervised by Robert Wise.

 

In all of the other films the deflector dish just stays blue all the time. 

 

Doug

post #27 of 31

I noticed the deflector dish being amber in all earlier versions when the Enterprise was at subwarp or idling, and I did hear Dochterman discuss that. What I can't understand, if TMP is color correct, is why that one shot has the green in it!smile.gif It's got to be a glitch that got past them when preparing for blu ray.

 

As an aside, this blu ray of TMP is amazing in how it just reveals the poor make-up job on Nimoy! On the TV series blu rays, the make-up was consistently greenish on his face and ears. In the film, there was patches of green and areas his own natural skin tone comes through. And it's very clear to see where the ear appliance is!

post #28 of 31
Well, after all the color issues people noted in the digital restoration of Star Wars, this one looks to me to be up the same alley: the computer got confused. This is why I've grown tired of trying to keep my collection updated...these new digital tools can do wonders for older films, it's true, but in the hi-def realm it seems they're being applied in increasingly sketchy ways. A shot like that, which took lots of craft and man-hours to pull off, goofed in seconds by an indiscriminate algorithm...
post #29 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelson Au View Post

I noticed the deflector dish being amber in all earlier versions when the Enterprise was at subwarp or idling, and I did hear Dochterman discuss that. What I can't understand, if TMP is color correct, is why that one shot has the green in it!smile.gif It's got to be a glitch that got past them when preparing for blu ray.

 

As an aside, this blu ray of TMP is amazing in how it just reveals the poor make-up job on Nimoy! On the TV series blu rays, the make-up was consistently greenish on his face and ears. In the film, there was patches of green and areas his own natural skin tone comes through. And it's very clear to see where the ear appliance is!


I think you're right that it is some kind of glitch. What caused it I have no idea. However I can see how it would be easy to miss in a QC session. After all it was out on the market for months (or has it been over a year now) before anyone noticed and posted  it here.

 

Doug

post #30 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick H. View Post

Well, after all the color issues people noted in the digital restoration of Star Wars, this one looks to me to be up the same alley: the computer got confused. This is why I've grown tired of trying to keep my collection updated...these new digital tools can do wonders for older films, it's true, but in the hi-def realm it seems they're being applied in increasingly sketchy ways. A shot like that, which took lots of craft and man-hours to pull off, goofed in seconds by an indiscriminate algorithm...



It maybe a simply rendering error. Its not unheard of for that sort of thing to happen. I've seen things like that happen with my own work, then you re-render and the mistake corrects itself.

 

Doug

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Blu-ray
Home Theater Forum › Home Theater Forum › Blu-ray, DVD, Streaming Video and Digital Downloads › Blu-ray › Strange Problem With Star Trek-TMP Blu-ray