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The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

post #1 of 271
Thread Starter 

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/vga-10-tba-game-2/708369

 

...And there goes the rest of my thirties. Dear God in heaven above. It's finally official, and it's almost here.

 

November 11, 2011.

 

I've actually got tears in my eyes. I'm so fucking happy right now. Can't wait to see Bethesda's new game engine at work. The land of Skyrim WILL create a feast for the eyes. NORDS FTW, Viking-style! Plus, there will dragons. And Max von-Fucking-Sydow.


The snow-theme is awesome. Remember Bloodmoon? That island was awesome. And the icing on it all?

It will only be 11 months between announcement and release.

Less than one year is what we have to wait.

Most games spend half that time simply to go from announcement to reveal, and another year to go from reveal to release. This is the kind of development I've been looking for.

Memo to all gaming companies: Don't tell me about your long-term plans; I don't care. Tell me about what I can expect in a year or less.

Now I can maintain maximum hype, instead of allowing my hype to die out and becoming turned off with how long I have to wait.

With Elder Scrolls V, Dragon Age II, Two Worlds 2, the first StarCraft 2 expansion, and Mass Effect 3, this will be the best year for RPGs ever, and just maybe the best year for gaming overall. Thanksgiving 2011 is going to be epic..

post #2 of 271

Right there with ya brother.  I'm 37, and if all goes well I will I should conquer the main quest by the time I'm 40.  I'm a sucker for sidequests.

post #3 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan^H View Post

Right there with ya brother.  I'm 37, and if all goes well I will I should conquer the main quest by the time I'm 40.  I'm a sucker for sidequests.


Agreed!  I'm nowhere near completing "Oblivion", it's been a while since I sat down with it, but I still spin it every so often.  I thought my big game for next year would be "LA Noir", but this has me dead excited!  I've followed the game since the arena days.  :)

post #4 of 271
Thread Starter 

The G4 Skyrim special at E3, with Todd Howard.

 

GOTY already; there's no point in anyone else even trying this year.

 

Goddamn -- that epic Jeremy Soule music. Those animations when the dragon appeared, and when it crashed down and totally changed the landscape around it...goddamn.

 

Listening to that male Redguard having a conversation in that cave easily made me squee like a little bitch, and made me realize that a brand-spanking-new Elder Scrolls game *IS* indeed finally almost here. Come to think, having to shout the dragon-spells through Kinect would be pretty badass, if not also completely and utterly humiliating.

 

I want to hunt Mammoths while riding a Dragon. Or hunt Dragons while riding a Mammoth.

 

At the very least, I want the ability to fluff dead Minotaurs.


Edited by joshEH - 6/7/11 at 6:51pm
post #5 of 271

300 hours?  NO THANKS!  =p

post #6 of 271

nice!  Very exciting to see it in gameplay action finally.  I rarely buy something right away but this will probably be different unless some reviews I trust come out and say it's broken or something.  haha!  Can happen! 

 

I really like that you can cook food and stuff.  Arc Fatalis really had fun with that idea. 

 

Hopefully those dungeons will look real different...moreso than Oblivion. ..erm, spoke too soon.  "150 hand crafted dungeons".  Hell, day one purchase!  I'm hoping it reminds me more of Morrowind than Oblivion. 

 

thumbsup.gif

post #7 of 271

Another Elder Scrolls for me to spend hours on and never finish ha ha! This one sounds amazing, but I'm a little worried that it might get a bit Grand Theft Auto IV. Don;t get me wrong, GTAIV was a great game, but there was so much to do that it felt like you were always on the verge of not being able to keep up. I got so busy maintaining the friendships that I never did finish the main missions. Cooking food is neat, but hopefully it's not completely essential ha ha.

 

Still a pre-order game for me though! I'll take my chances!

post #8 of 271

Oblivion had the absolute worst levelling system ever, in any RPG, on any platform.  Seriously, the designers who were responsible should be fired.  If Skyrim has anything remotely similar, no amount of eye candy will bring to play it.

 

Edit: judging from that preview, they are doing the same, utterly stupid thing as Oblivion.  Sorry, no thanks.

post #9 of 271
Thread Starter 

Worry not -- Bethesda has confirmed that Skyrim will be using the Fallout 3 leveling-system, which is essentially the same one used in Morrowind.

 

I had a few issues with Oblivion's leveling-system, but I've never felt it to be nearly as game-breaking as some folks think it is, even when playing it on mod-less consoles. The Elder Scrolls IV had a pretty strict adherence to the idea that everything should be balanced, in every facet of game play.

 

Scaled leveling would work if it were given smart limitations. If enemies scaled down to your current level, you'd have the freedom to go anywhere, and still receive a modest challenge. You'd never be restricted from an area simply because the enemies are too strong.

 

Bethesda developed a scaling system such that, at Level 1, you would never find powerful loot, no matter what enemies you defeated in the game world or regions you explored, and as you advanced in level, the loot tables would provide you with level-appropriate loot from the dynamically-generated contents of treasure chests and the corpses of enemies.

The problem is when they scale upward. It eliminates the sense of reward when bandits are just as hard to kill after 100 hours of investment and advancement. It also hurts the immersion when they're demanding a handful of pocket-money while sporting enchanted Daedric armor and an Ebony pWnmaul.


But it was still an incredible game, and a strong contender for "Best Game of the 2000s." And this time, they're returning to what's worked extremely well in the past, instead of reinventing the wheel like they did in the last Elder Scrolls game.

 

post #10 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshEH View Post

Worry not -- Bethesda has confirmed that Skyrim will be using the Fallout 3 leveling-system, which is essentially the same one used in Morrowind.

 

 



The guy in that clip said that you would gain advancement by using a skill, but that you wouldn't be limited to a set of skills for a given "class," and instead have access to them all.  Advancing in enough skills gives you levels.  That's *exactly* the system used in Oblivion.  Further, they've seemed to have attached skill trees (that constellation system), so that you *must* advance a certain skill (and thus bring  you closer to a levelup) to branch into the tree (for example, using a shield to unlock bash-type moves).

 

Don't even get me started on the scaling "feature."  Best game of the 2000s?  Please.  Borderlands was a better RPG, and it wasn't even a true RPG!

 

If Skyrim truly uses the Fallout/Morrowind system where you kill stuff and complete quests to gain levels, upon which you choose a perk (the constellation system is fine here), then we're in business.  That clip doesn't seem to show that, though.  I saw a lot of skills with bars "filled" to varying degrees--that smacks of Oblivion.

post #11 of 271
Thread Starter 

Re-reading your first post, I just realized I misunderstood what you were saying, up there (was typing while at work, and doing three things at once) -- the enemy-scaling system uses the Morrowind/Fallout 3 mechanism, but the player-leveling system is the same one used in all but the very first Elder Scrolls game, correct (i.e., advancing through skill-use). Apologies about that.

 

But yeah, the skill-leveling system is exactly the same as it's always been, except this time, all pre-made character classes (Spellsword, Assassin, Battlemage, etc.) and stats (STR, DEX, INT, WIS, etc.) are gone, and have been largely replaced by Fallout's perk-system. Each time you gain a level through skill-use (as seen briefly in the video), you'll allocate skill-points to either Health, Magicka, or Stamina (where the old stats have been re-aligned), and choose a number of perks to custom-build your character class with (warrior, bard, sorcerer, agent, stealth-user, alchemist, enchanter, dual-wielder, summoner, assassin-type, etc.).

 

Regarding the enemy-leveling system, the number-one most important thing is that, this time, creatures DO scale-up in terms of abilities to match your own level. Meaning, each Mountain Giant you encounter in Skyrim will have different attributes, depending upon your own attributes when you encounter them.

In Fallout 3, each territory in the game was assigned an encounter level that determined the level and equipment of the creatures when you discover that specific area. This basically means that, when you're at Level 1 and wander into a Level 5 encounter-territory, you're in for a fight. Loot is, in general, also scaled to the territory's encounter-level, but some items are also hand-placed, like in Morrowind.

The territories' levels don't remain static as you level up yourself, however -- as soon as you enter an area or territory, its level will be locked, and will NOT scale up in difficulty as you do.

 

As previously mentioned, undiscovered areas and territories will level up in difficulty, but it won't be to specifically match YOUR level. So, say, when you begin the game, an area that is designated a Level 5 encounter-level will become, say, a Level 8 encounter-level when you're at Level 15 yourself.

Something a lot of people have said they want to see is the possibility to enter an area that is absolutely WAY too difficult for you to handle, then return at a later level with better equipment and stats and just cleaning house -- this scaling system allows that 100%, as when you entered that dungeon with those difficult enemies, it will be "locked" to those, and will not change as you level up.


(In other words, those Dread Zombies you saw in there earlier in the game will remain when you return in 10 levels, and they won't have gone up in stats.)

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh Dial View Post

Don't even get me started on the scaling "feature."  Best game of the 2000s?  Please.  Borderlands was a better RPG, and it wasn't even a true RPG!

 

We'll simply just have to agree to disagree on that one, I guess -- the hundreds of hours I logged in it certainly makes it a strong "Best Game of the Last Decade" contender for me, at least (not to mention all of the GOTY awards it swept from the critics the following year).


Edited by joshEH - 6/9/11 at 7:55am
post #12 of 271

Nothing is quite as fun as being forced to jump 1000 times or swim 20 miles for no reason just so I can choose a particular perk tied to that skill.  It's seriously moronic.

 

Why can't they just copy over the Fallout 3 system?  Especially since, as the other Josh points out, a number of video game fans hate the Oblivion levelling system as I do.  Kill things and get experience.  Complete quests and get experience.  Level up and choose a perk.

post #13 of 271

Wired has an in depth walktrhough...

 

http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2011/06/skyrim-e3-hands-on/

post #14 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Posten View Post

Wired has an in depth walktrhough...

 

http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2011/06/skyrim-e3-hands-on/



 

These walkthroughs' always make the game sound impossibly complex, more so then the games actually are to play. I'm trying not to scare myself off it! :P

post #15 of 271
Thread Starter 

     Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh Dial View Post

Nothing is quite as fun as being forced to jump 1000 times or swim 20 miles for no reason just so I can choose a particular perk tied to that skill.  It's seriously moronic.

 

Why can't they just copy over the Fallout 3 system?  Especially since, as the other Josh points out, a number of video game fans hate the Oblivion levelling system as I do.  Kill things and get experience.  Complete quests and get experience.  Level up and choose a perk.

 

Coincidentally, both the Athletics and Acrobatics skills have been removed (realigned into other skills), so that won't be an issue this time around for those particular traits. I've never had any problems with the Elder Scrolls skills-system as it's existed in past games (only Arena used an XP system), and, just as in real life, it makes a certain kind of sense -- the more you use a skill, the better you get at it.

 

I've always felt that advancing specific skills and abilities based on experience points and arbitrary levels of said experience was an inelegant way of setting up character-advancement, regardless. This new system allows for the sense of development that makes RPGs more than just pure exploration and action. You develop a character over time, rather than observing the story as a static piece of the landscape.

 

I don't think the specific numerical system is, or has ever been, an important part of that process. I recognize that many people do feel this way, but I don't quite understand why, beyond nostalgia. I'm into things like D&D for the communal storytelling, and the, well, "dungeons and dragons." The romp through a fantasy world. I don't want it to be all action, no. But my character advancing strictly by the numbers isn't all that much better.

 

A use-based skill system makes a lot more sense to me, and seems a far more elegant way to add flavor to a character in a very personal way.

 

 

     Quote:

Originally Posted by Russell G View Post

These walkthroughs' always make the game sound impossibly complex, more so then the games actually are to play. I'm trying not to scare myself off it! :P

 

Yup. In fact, whenever I purchase a new Elder Scrolls game (or just about any Bethesda RPG in general), there's always a period of time where they each sat there, unwrapped on the shelf for about 10 or 15 minutes each, as I sit there, gulping, too intimidated to even work up the nerve to create a character.

 

I expect nothing less than the exact same, pure, pants-shitting terror this time around, too.

 

 

post #16 of 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshEH View Post

A use-based skill system makes a lot more sense to me, and seems a far more elegant way to add flavor to a character in a very personal way.

 

 



I understand the draw, just as you appear to understand why many dislike it--one of the rare agree to disagree moments on the internet!

 

I guess my big problem I had with the system, and indeed the one that made me stop playing Oblivion many times, is that I would constantly reach a point where I was about to gain a level, but my attributes that would benefit weren't the ones I wanted.  I would be forced to start using spells I wouldn't normally use, or swing a weapon I didn't like, just to ensure a bonus I wanted.  Make no mistake, I wasn't in any way attempting to powergame or make a godly character, but I shouldn't have to sketch out my levels beforehand ("okay this level I'll use fireball and acrobatics and heavy armour, next level I'll use heal and mace and swimming...").

 

It would be different if the organic, use-based system actually resulted in a character I liked, but it didn't.  Many times I completely avoided any attempt at planning my character, and instead relied on "the system" to sculpt one for me, simply based on the ad hoc way I approached the game.  The result was a boring, jack-of-all-trades that wasn't just a master of none, but subpar at everything.

 

I don't want to be "that guy" who comes into threads and crap all over everyone's fun, so I'll stop running down the levelling system.

 

Clearly the game looks gorgeous, and many of the other mechanics sound really cool.  I may eventually break down and pick up the inevitable game-of-the-year edition for 20 bucks or whatever, but sadly this is another Elder Scrolls game that I'll have to pass on at launch.

post #17 of 271
Thread Starter 

True story -- just yesterday afternoon, I got into a E3-related conversation with a guy at work, and the discussion soon shifted to Skyrim, where he basically laid out the exact same leveling-rant you did, Josh, practically word-for-word. Seriously, it was pretty much identical, and when I read your latest post, I couldn't help but chuckle a little. biggrin.gif

 

But yeah, as much as I love TES, the skill/stat system really brings out the obsessive inside of me. Like you, I always end up having to control myself, constantly planning what attacks/skills to use per level, just to get the best possible stat-spread.

 

From what many industry folks who saw the game demoed are now saying, with the removal of the base-stats, it should, for the most part, eliminate the kind of non-intuitive leveling process of some of the previous Elder Scrolls games, which might make it a bit easier for some folks to get immersed in the game world.

post #18 of 271

I was going to fire up Fallout 3 "for 15 or 20 minutes" last night because of the discussion in the thread. 

 

2 hours later...  had to get a crowbar to pry myself away.  Damn. 

 

I was noticing how great my character was.  I'm very guilty of not advancing through the quests quickly enough.  I end up with a super character that breezes through the quests when I finally get around to doing them.  Same thing happened in Gothic 1 and Oblivion.  I got bored with a character in Oblivion because he was too good as sneaking around and could clear out dark dungeons with ease and then spend days and days hauling stuff out of there.  They need a U-Haul rental place in Chorral! 

 

Anyway, I like challenge above all.  I'm moving to do more quests in FO3 to make it more difficult. 

 

well...carry on...  :D

post #19 of 271

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Dial View Post

I don't want to be "that guy" who comes into threads and crap all over everyone's fun, so I'll stop running down the levelling system.

 

 

That's OK, I'll do it smile.gif

 

The problem with leveling in Oblivion has two parts: (1) how your character rises; and (2) that everyone rises with you. #2 is magnified by #1 when you don't "optimally" level or near to it. And the problem with #1 is that if you "do what comes naturally", you end with a slightly below average leveling, which compounds itself over time. So you do silly stuff like mentioned above, hopping all over the place, never sleeping, etc.

 

I've tried to come back to the game a few times, reading various blog masterpieces detailing how to workaround that disaster, but I can't just bring myself to do it. Instead, I started and finished Dragon Age: Origins -- several times in fact -- and enjoyed myself immensely. Best Game Ever. (Not too hard, I don't play that many.) With #1, the system is old school XP where you pick what you want to level up. It's not "natural", but at least it's not frustrating and counter-intuitive. For #2, they have scaled leveling with caps, and use gating encounters to (try to) scare you off if a place should be too tough for you.

 

When Skyrim comes out, the question will be answered definitively, and I will choose accordingly. Definitely won't buy it on release day, though.

post #20 of 271

I bought and started Dragon Age... seems excellent.  Glad I picked it up when it was on sale.  I'm trying to put a dent in NWN2 but it's just doesn't seem as good and doesn't have the big hooks as DA. 

 

Reading my post above...hell, all I've been playing is Fallout 3 now.  I bought New Vegas during the sale...but I can't stop playing the first one.. even though my roof leaked on my keyboard and center speaker.  grrr... still... the thing works and I can't stop playing it. 

post #21 of 271

Keep it up and enjoy the heck out of it... then prepare for even more enjoyment with New Vegas!  I think I finally put down F03 (w/ Broken Steel expansion) after about 3 characters/play-throughs, and probably well over 200 hours. eek.gif

Got New Vegas for Christmas, but didn't actually open it up till a couple months back... am up to probably 100-ish hours, with my first character.  I "cheated" a bit by doing tons of sidequests and leveling prior to the main quest, which enabled me to then use the same character to pretty quickly explore all 4 main faction endings.  Looking forward to starting a new character, and playing on hardcore mode...

post #22 of 271

Hey thanks, I will.  It looks better than NWN2, but I feel obligated to get my money's worth out of NWN2... 

 

I think I'm on my 3rd character but the other 2 I didn't play a whole lot.  This one I have... but I'm a slow player.  I don't even use quick travel.  Gets tiring going back and forth sometimes...but that's life after the war!  :D 

 

NV has about 25 minutes before it's installed on steam.  Gonna give it a spin to make sure it works.  5 or 10 minutes.  Heh, yeah right!  But I will put it off until I've played FO3 more fully. 

post #23 of 271

My only real issue with Skyrim is that Bethesda ALWAYS releases Elder Scrolls games right around the time my PC is no longer up to the task of running the game at highest graphics...I SO wanted to use season-changing mods and more beautiful landscapes available on the 'net.  Of course, none of that hampered the 200+ hours I put into Oblivion...and mostly ignoring the main quest to the point that I don't even remember what the quest WAS!

 

Most of my fun with RPGs is the sense of discovery.  It's all about exploration.  The fact that I get to kill things is a bonus.  I had no problem with Oblivion's leveling system, in fact, I liked it a lot. I never stood in place jumping up and down to enhance a certain skill, it just came over time.

 

Also, I liked that the baddies I encountered didn't increase in attributes as the game progressed.  I found it immensely satisfying to have a target run away from me out of fright because I had grown more powerful.  Of course, they never really got the chance:  my avatar was a female who became SO adept with stealth and proficiency with her bow that she was all but invisible (she had a ring of invisibility, too, but I didn't let her wear it because I didn't like the way it made her arms disappear on the screen).  One shot was all it took to take out even the most fearsome baddies...they NEVER saw her coming and were hit the floor long before they even realized an arrow had just mortally wounded them.  I realize that most of you would find that a very boring way to play, but for me it was nirvana.  I just saw her as a medieval Batman.  I imagined minions running to their leader and saying "she is HERE..." in a fit of panic. I would have her walk up to her victim, imagining it was in the throes of death. and telling it to mention her name when it got to hell, before yanking the arrow from its neck for reuse...

post #24 of 271

^ that's why I play them too, discovery. 

 

Sometimes you just have to run the thing at lower settings for your first playthrough.  that's what I do.  Then when you upgrade later you can give an all new spin with all the mods loaded it, now graphic textures, etc and it'll seem like a whole new game. 

post #25 of 271

I's been a long time since I've played Oblivion, so I don't remember too well. Ken wrote "everyone rises with you" and Don wrote "the baddies I encountered didn't increase in attributes as the game progressed." Which is it?

 

post #26 of 271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Giro View Post

My only real issue with Skyrim is that Bethesda ALWAYS releases Elder Scrolls games right around the time my PC is no longer up to the task of running the game at highest graphics...I SO wanted to use season-changing mods and more beautiful landscapes available on the 'net.  Of course, none of that hampered the 200+ hours I put into Oblivion...and mostly ignoring the main quest to the point that I don't even remember what the quest WAS!

Yeah, I have so little time to play any more that I typically pick up the Xbox 360 version right at launch, then a couple years later, I'll pick up the PC version, and install some mods. That said, as far as mods are concerned, I usually don't go for anything massively game-altering -- typically texture-packs, loot-distribution, some landscape adjustments, and the like. I hate changing the game too far from the developers' original intent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Silverman View Post

I's been a long time since I've played Oblivion, so I don't remember too well. Ken wrote "everyone rises with you" and Don wrote "the baddies I encountered didn't increase in attributes as the game progressed." Which is it?

 

Technically, the enemy classes you encounter don't rise in level, but the enemy types that you encounter do. So, what this means is, at the beginning of the game you'll run into wolves in a certain region, but once you hit Level 20 or 25, they'll be automatically replaced by bears or Minotaurs, for example. Also, the bandits you encounter will suddenly start wearing stuff like enchanted glass armor and carrying ebony hammers, but won't demand anything more than a few paltry gold from your now-likewise-incredibly-wealthy character.
post #27 of 271
Ah, interesting. Thanks for clearing that up.

I envy you guys who have time to play through a game TWICE. smile.gif
post #28 of 271
Yeahhhhh.... No.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0050SYNYQ/?tag=amazon0b53-20

$150? Not a chance. I bit on the CE for TOR but I can't see me doing that for ANY other game for a long long time.
post #29 of 271
$150!


Nope. I'll be waiting until the game is $40 or less.
post #30 of 271
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