A few words about...™ Fantasia -- in Blu-ray

You are 100% correct, Mr. Harris. This is a stunning achievment, with two caveats. The first, which has already been discussed, is that the two DVD discs could have been released separately and in their place could have been two discs containing the massive amount of wonderful and instructive bonus material included on the previous DVD release. This BD-live thing might now begin replacing supplements on the physical discs, and I am truly dismayed by the precedent set by this release in that regard.

My issue other is this: Do you, Mr. Harris, like to still-frame gorgeous artwork like this just to have the chance to study the craftsmanship and compositions? I've spent a fortune over the years collecting Disney coffee table art books, but to be able to see this work up on a 50" screen is so much more satisfying. However, any attempt to freeze a frame on the FANTASIA blu-rays (and this goes for other of their animated Blu-rays), a timeline appears toward the bottom of the screen that does not disappear and cannot be removed. By omitting an option to clear the screen of this debris makes me livid. I don't see the point. Give is the quick time or "pause" information and then get out of town, like most other studio's timelines do. But it's probably here to stay regardless of any protests, just as station I.D. bugs began appearing on t.v. channels which then morphed into ticker tapes and moving graphics and just about anything one could dream up to degrade the presentation.

Rant over. And good to hear from you, as always.

I'm glad Mr. Harris is so happy about Fantasia on blu-ray, but I can't quite get over three items:

1. The Deems Taylor sound-alike, who sounds nothing like Deems Taylor.  Find a better impersonator.  Digitally manipulate the voice to sound more like Taylor (the technology DOES exist).  If nothing else, give us the surviving Taylor audio (which can be found on the 1990 VHS release) on an alternate track.  Anything less is an insult to Deems Taylor's memory.

2. The Virtual Vault nonsense.

3. The whole release just feels... cheap.  Off the cuff.  Second rate.  Compare it to the Anthology DVD set (or even the Deluxe VHS set, which came with the 2-disc soundtrack), and it just feels like a step down.  Fantasia is not only my favorite Disney film ever... it's in my top 10 favorite films of all time.  Its premiere in high definition should be something.... damn it, MORE than this.  This is by no means what I would consider a "definitive" release.

Okay, having said that, both films look and sound amazing on blu-ray.  And the Disney/Dali documentary is brilliant.

Wasn't the voice replaced on the Antholgy set too?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyD 

Wasn't the voice replaced on the Antholgy set too?

Yes, it was.

I thought so. 

I brought it up because it is all the same thing over again. everything being said about the blu was said before about this voice thing when the anthology was released.

It's Deju Vue all over again and it doesn't matter. 

Seems pointless to be rehashing it again.

Is there anyone who won't own this on blu because the voice was re-recorded for some of the first movie?

If yes, then why?

To prove a point, to make a point?

Disney knows there are people who don't like this and they still did it again. 

Does the voice over change the amazing music and beautiful imagery?

It's a shame that all the available Deems Taylor wasn't used again but that's it.

Never gonna happen.

here is one topic from '04 after the anthology was released.

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/forum/thread/160889/fantasia-question

One from 3 years ago asking Disney to fix specific things on the next release, the didn't fix anything apparently.

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/forum/thread/277657/dear-disney-please-restore-controversial-scenes-in-upcoming-fantasia-platinum-dvd-bd

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyD 

I thought so. 

I brought it up because it is all the same thing over again. everything being said about the blu was said before about this voice thing when the anthology was released.

 

It's Deju Vue all over again and it doesn't matter. 

 

Seems pointless to be rehashing it again.

 

Is there anyone who won't own this on blu because the voice was re-recorded for some of the first movie?

If yes, then why?

To prove a point, to make a point?

 

Disney knows there are people who don't like this and they still did it again. 

 

Does the voice over change the amazing music and beautiful imagery?

It's a shame that all the available Deems Taylor wasn't used again but that's it.

Never gonna happen.

 

 

 

Film history ought to matter.

Not to prove a point, but simply because I don't like spending money on something that is actually giving me less than what I own already. I've got Deems Taylor with my old Laserdisc edition, and BD Live only extras are a ripoff. They won't keep those online forever...

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyD 

Is there anyone who won't own this on blu because the voice was re-recorded for some of the first movie?

If yes, then why?

 

Because I'm interested in owning the version of Fantasia that Walt Disney originally created.  I'm not interested in owning a revised version created 60 years later.

Admittedly, at least some revision is necessary because not all of the Deems Taylor dialogue survives.  But there's no indication that Disney even tried to approximate the original release on DVD or Blu-ray: the surviving Deems Taylor dialogue was not used, and the actor chosen to replace him doesn't sound anything like him.

It's not about "proving a point," it's about not spending money on a produce that simply doesn't interest me.

I'm not going to buy the Blu. Everything you say is correct. I am happy that many of you are happy with the Blu-ray. I am happy with my 1991 laserdisc, which has been re-recorded to a DVD+R DL. I don't like the second film anyway; so I'm good to go. 'Nuff said.

Don't get me wrong --- I bought the blu-ray the day it was released, and I am enjoying it.... just not on the level that I'd hoped for.  The film deserves a top-flight release.  This one feels kinda... rushed.  Interim.  Hopefully down the road....

Historically, has Fantasia sold well enough to justify even a fraction of the treatment that Disney might give to their other animated classics?

Anyone who loves the film and doesn't purchase the BD because of the re-recorded narration is cutting off their nose to spite their face.  It is an indisputable fact that the picture and sound quality of this new release far surpasses any other previous release.  It's like night and day.  It's a shame that the complete original narration no longer exists but, as far as anyone knows, it doesn't.  Could they have found someone who sounds more like Taylor to re-record the missing segments and edited them together with the remaining Taylor narration?  Sure.  In the end, there would likely be a greater number of people who would complain about it sounding awkward.  

I think some folks need to remember, as well, that FANTASIA, as wonderful as it is, is still not a mainstream Disney film.  It isn't something that kids or the average adult are going to be clamoring to watch repeatedly or at all.  Animation fans and cinephiles love it, but it's not easily-digestible family fare.  I can understand, from a business point-of-view, why Disney would balk at laying out additional funds to re-re-record the missing narration.  The current narration, whilst far-from-perfect, is fine.  The average person probably doesn't even realize that it isn't Taylor's voice.

The relegation of the extras to a useless "online only" option is a mystery.  It still isn't worth a boycott if you love the film.

If you choose not to get the disc in some sort of misguided act of defiance, then have fun with your murky laserdisc or VHS copy.  I'm enjoying the heck out of the stunning audio and video presentation of FANTASIA.

I was angry at first at the dubbed commentary and when one of our learned members mentioned on one of the Fantasia threads that Deems voice was never heard on home video, I no longer cared. Plus I have to confess to skipping the chit chat on occasion. The animation and music come first for me and as Brian says, they are stunningly represented on Blu-ray. :)

Deems Taylor WAS heard on home video...in the 1990 release.

Would it have cost much to include it as an alternate audio track? Then subtitles could have filled in the gaps.

My "murky" Laserdisc still looks pretty nice to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Harris 

Parts of Deems Taylor's audio do not survive the film's numerous cuts.   Rather than have voices not matching, Disney did, what I believe is the appropriate thing -- to re-voice the footage as unified.

Given that some of the audio no longer exists, I understand that no solution will be perfect.  But couldn't Disney have re-dubbed the part using an actor who sounded at least a little bit like Taylor?

No need for quotation marks.  In comparison to the BD release, it is murky.  If that's what you prefer, I have a photocopy of a photograph of the Mona Lisa I could sell you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cafink 

 

Given that some of the audio no longer exists, I understand that no solution will be perfect.  But couldn't Disney have re-dubbed the part using an actor who sounded at least a little bit like Taylor?

To do it right, they would have needed a voice-impersonator.

Churchill had one, and it's done in Spartacus (oysters or snails), but Anthony Hopkins is not only a very great actor, he also worked personally with Lawrence Olivier for a long time, and was able to pull it off.

Or are you simply saying they should have used someone with a more similar voice, in your opinion, for the whole part?

Cees

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Kidd 

 

 

Quote:

My "murky" Laserdisc still looks pretty nice to me.

No need for quotation marks.  In comparison to the BD release, it is murky.  If that's what you prefer, I have a photocopy of a photograph of the Mona Lisa I could sell you.

Oh, come off it.  No one has said they preferred the image on the laserdisc, only that the laserdisc was preferable overall because of the Blu-ray's audio.  Argue about relative pros and cons of each version if you like, but can't we do that without putting words into people's mouths?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cafink 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Harris 

Parts of Deems Taylor's audio do not survive the film's numerous cuts.   Rather than have voices not matching, Disney did, what I believe is the appropriate thing -- to re-voice the footage as unified.

Given that some of the audio no longer exists, I understand that no solution will be perfect.  But couldn't Disney have re-dubbed the part using an actor who sounded at least a little bit like Taylor?

Isn't it Corey Burton?  Given how he's been used over the years in other voice-over work, I think Disney and some others think he sounds like everyone.
 

duplicate

Corey Burton is a talented performer, most of whose work I respect and appreciate on its own merits.  But listen to his work in Fantasia compared to Deems Taylor's original (a clip was posted in the other Fantasia thread)--they simply don't sound anything alike.

To answer your question, Cees, I don't have a problem in principle with Disney's having re-dubbed the entire movie--I understand that there are lots of little bits & pieces missing throughout, and I appreciate how difficult it would be to seamlessly fit in the dubbed portions.  I just think that whatever approach they took, they should have tried a bit harder to make it closer to the original.

I think the Blu-ray is a pretty good presentation, but surely it's overstating things a bit to claim that "nothing necessary to make this perfect has been spared" (to say nothing of the "black centaur" issue).

Let me preface all of this by saying that I have the BD and it is wonderful, and the audio issue does not keep me from enjoying or purchasing this title.

It would be interesting to know precisely which Deems Taylor audio is missing, or if it is missing or just of extremely poor quality. It appears that it may be as simple as the re-inserted roadshow bits being unsalvageable. It would appear they could have done one of several things:

1. Provide the previously-available edited version with Taylor’s voice via seamless branching.
2. Provide an alternate soundtrack with Taylor’s voice, with either subtitles or the replacement voice filling in the missing gaps. The jump between original and dubbed voices may indeed be too jarring, but I think an *alternate* track of this sort could have worked.
3. Provide the Taylor segments with original voice as bonus features.

Given that they felt the need either budget wise or disc space-wise to leave off most bonus features on these discs, it isn’t surprising they didn’t try for any of these alternative solutions.

I have to say as someone who didn’t have much familiarity with the film, even if I hadn’t known before viewing the film that the voice was dubbed, it would have been clear. The voice is clearly dubbed based on comparing the image to the sound. The dubbed audio also doesn’t necessarily have the ambience or sound quality of a 1940 recording. It sounds like an in-studio dub.

I’ve only been able to hear some YouTube side-by-side comparisons of the original and dubbed voice. I’m not sure what to make of it. It isn’t anywhere near the worst dub/impersonation I’ve ever heard. It sounds reasonably similar. It’s not like they traded a deep husky voice for a high-pitched voice or something. I’m not really convinced getting a “better” impersonator would have solved anything, both because the outrage seems to be partly that it was dubbed at all, and I’m also not convinced a different impersonator would have sounded much more like Taylor.

It really is a case of a trade-off. I suppose we shouldn’t have to choose, but given the choice, I’d take an HD transfer on BD with a dubbed voice to an SD transfer with original voice.

Deems Taylor was a significant figure in the history of American music in the 20th Century and, specifically relevant to his part in Fantasia, a significant media presence. His voice was familiar to millions of radio listeners as that of the person who could communicate ideas and concepts about classical music with intelligence and humor, in a way that was comprehensible, entertaining, but never condescending. He wasn't just some anonymous, interchangeable voice-over guy reading from a script. If this couldn't be done properly, it shouldn't have been done at all.

I suspect the majority of people buying Fantasia on blu-ray wouldn't know or care if it was or wasn't Deems Taylor's voice on the disc. If you're saying it's better that Fantasia was never released on Blu-ray at all than have his voice dubbed, I disagree. I'm already looking forward to watching the movie again this weekend, definitely in my top 10 Blu-rays of the year. Yes it would have been nice to have Deems track on there somewhere, but I'm just happy at how fantastic this 70 year old film looks (and sounds). :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Christou 

If you're saying it's better that Fantasia was never released on Blu-ray at all than have his voice dubbed, I disagree.

I'm saying that the segments for which original audio no longer existed shouldn't have been put back in. In other words, just release the post-roadshow version with Taylor's own voice intact.

It's weird that some seem to be writing of this Bluray when Disney seemed to make the best compromise: recreate the road show experience in the best way possible with the elements that survived.  Not all of Deems vocals survived, so they did the best they could with a re-record.  Could it have been done better?  Possibly.  The alternative and easier (and cheaper) route for Disney to have taken is to just cut all those bits out and release a music/cartoon only version that was seen in some cinemas in Fantasia's choppy release history.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Penna 

I'm saying that the segments for which original audio no longer existed shouldn't have been put back in. In other words, just release the post-roadshow version with Taylor's own voice intact.

Huh, never mind my previous post.  It seems people would prefer a butchered for content version on this one.  *walks away shaking his head*