Star Ceilings... Painted vs. Fiber optics

(I've been asked a lot by home theater owners... "How do your murals compare to fiber optics?" I also tried to reply to a thread a while back that talked about Faux star ceilings... but couldn't get the reply button to work. So, hopefully the following will help some of you who want a star ceiling in your home theater (or bedroom)... but aren't sure about which way to go.)

 

 

Star Ceiling – Fiber optics vs Painted

 

A star ceiling is a definite plus for any home theater or bedroom... but what is the best way to go? Should you install Fiber Optics or have the ceiling painted (either by yourself or by a professional)? Well, that depends...

 

(Mural by Night Sky Murals. Black lights help this painted mural shine brighter when there is light in the room)

 

(This home theater is in California and was really fun to do. The owner built the soffit, on an angle, for the black lights and the stars to show up throughout the movie. I have a special mixture of paint that I use in home theaters for those who want to have bright stars during the movie. Otherwise, with the lights off... the theater looks like the ceiling has been removed and the stars are more subtle.)

 

 

(A Fiber Optic Ceiling with black lights around the edge for looks only)

 

 

Of course my view is going to be a little biased... but I will try to be fair to all three options.

 

First, lets go over Fiber optics. They are great to view in almost any light. This is a big “pro” when compared to a painted ceiling. A painted mural acts just like a real night sky and disappears in the light. Fiber optics can still be visible in the light.

 

When there are lights off in the room... the fiber optics are visible and beautiful. When the lights are on... they are still visible and beautiful. And, you can even make them twinkle.

 

But, there are some downsides to fiber optics too... The "Cons"

 

• They are pricey

 

• They require a lot of extra work to have them installed.

 

• Holes need to be drilled.

 

• Wires need to be run.

 

• If there is no crawl space above the ceiling... then panels need to be prepared, covered, wired and then installed.

 

• If you don't want to do all of the work yourself.. then you would need to hire someone to do it for you and they may not have much of a clue what to do either.

 

• You usually get only a fraction of the number of stars that a painted mural gives you.

 

• The holes drilled for the fibers are visible.

 

• You'd get one, maybe two, different sizes of stars.

 

• You will need to schedule a few days, to a week, for it to be installed.

 

• The twinkling stars, while cute, is not very natural.

 

But, they ARE nice and the big advantage is that you can see the stars at any time you want basically.

 

 

Now... what about the painted Night Sky Murals... DIY and Professionally installed?

 

Well, here is where I can speak with more authority.

 

Let's start with the DIY Option. This option can be both good and bad. Bad if you have no talent as an artist and you just throw up some paint with a paint brush. (I have seen, and painted over, many a ceiling where the owner, or their friend, tried to paint the night sky with glow-in-the-dark paint) It looks really easy, but there are definitely some techniques that need to be learned first.

 

But, if you or a friend are an artist and you want to freehand it... then go for it. And remember... you don't have to fill every inch with stars; You can always add more stars later if needed. Don't try to go too crazy at first. Paint... step back... look... and then paint some more.

 

There are also stencil kits that you can purchase on the Internet. Out of the 4 or 5 different stencils that I have researched... there is one that is much better than the rest, and it isn't even the most expensive. So, do your due diligence or email me and I will steer you in the right direction. If you have more than one or two rooms to paint... you will be sore after painting with the stencil. Just sayin.

 

 

The ”Pros” for the DIY option:

 

• Cheapest method to get a star mural on your ceiling.

 

• Usually slightly nicer than the plastic stars.

 

• You can paint over it if it looks ugly and then try again... or you can call in a professional.

 

• You can claim credit for having painted it.

 

• If you have to tear out part of your ceiling to fix something up in there... then you can repaint that area yourself.

 

 

The “Cons” to the DIY option:

 

• Sore neck and back.

 

• It's very easy to create a very ugly mural if you aren't careful.

 

• It isn't nearly as nice as one done by a professional (at least the better professionals).

 

• More unnecessary work to perform where you aren't already proficient.

 

• It is only slightly nicer than the plastic stars.

 

• It's frustrating.

 

• You'll probably glow in the dark for a few days from the paint that gets on you.

 

 

Now.. ”The Professional Option”. Are they really that expensive? Here's the quick and easy answer... Some are. Some aren't. And, by the way, I am. (But, I am a lot less than having fiber optics installed)

 

A quick word about “Professionals” here. There are many people/companies that will teach others how to paint a star mural. One problem is that most of them have never even painted one themselves. Usually they are either companies who want to sell their glow paint (so they teach you a method which creates a need for their paint, and they usually are terrible techniques)... or they are just lazy people who see a good idea and try to capitalize on someone elses success by marketing a “Star-Painting Business Kit” themselves. And, as a result, the people they “train” have learned really bad techniques from these non-skilled, snake oil salesmen. So you want to be careful who you hire.

 

 

Here's are two examples.

 

This first picture is of a mural that was done by one of the popular companies painting and teaching others to paint these murals. Please don't ask who did this because I won't name them. I show it only to make the point that you need to check around. This picture was taken with a black light on because they probably didn't have a camera with a long shutter exposure. Thus, the background color. BTW... the picture at the beginning of this thread is of one of my murals with black lights on too.

 

(Another unknown "Professional's" mural)

 

 

 

This next picture is of a mural that I painted on a really nice ceiling with big beams in it. 

 

(Mural by Night Sky Murals)

 

 

Having said that... I have seen some work done by other artists that really surprised me, because the murals they painted were actually really nice. They were much better than I had expected them to be after hearing who they'd learned from. But these murals were, for the most part, painted by people who were already muralists before they ever decided to add “star mural” ceilings to their portfolio.

 

So please be careful when hiring an artist and try to see their work first... or at least have them drop by with, or send you a sample of their work that you can look at. I mean... do you really want to spend all that time decorating your theater room... only to have an amateur come in and destroy your ceiling? There are good artists out there... but you need to search to find them.

 

As for the cost... You can find people who will throw some paint up on your ceiling for anywhere from $1 to $4 per square foot. My prices start at $6 per sq. ft... and can go as high as $12 per sq. ft. depending on the detail and preparation before I can paint. I'm more expensive than most, but I am fair and the value that you get, I think, comes out to be a better deal.

 

 

OK... here are the “Pros” to having a professional paint the mural:

 

• The look is Incredible! (When done right by a true professional)

 

• Painted night sky murals blow fiber optics away in the dark. (Fiber optics excel in lighted areas) But for realism... there is no comparison to a painted mural.

 

• You can have a realistic looking Milky Way in your mural, that has a cloudy look to it and has thousands and thousands of tiny little stars.

 

• You can have other deep space objects and the moon added in. (I suggest only having a crescent moon painted in... because I try to make the mural look like a night sky that you would see from a remote location on earth. Galaxies and Nebula aren't really visible with the naked eye from earth) But, it is possible to have all those things with a painted mural.

 

• You can create the illusion of mountains surrounding the room when the mural is brought down the walls.

 

• Ceiling fans and heat registers can be painted too... so they don't become black holes when the room is dark.

 

• If you feed some professional painters some cookie dough (ahem!) they might even throw in a shooting star or two (which are really more like comets since they don't move).

 

• Virtually invisible in the light.

 

• Thousands of stars in the mural... compared to only a couple hundred with fiber optics and DIY options.

 

• 10 to 15 different sized stars in the murals. This is what creates an incredible 3D look.

 

• Paint (a good muralist should have this paint) that will glow for up to 12 hours. The smaller stars will fade in about 3 to 4... and the larger stars will glow longer.

 

• The paint can be made to fluoresce under a black light for viewing during a movie. Not as bright as fiber optics, but more natural looking.

 

• The mural actually changes the longer the lights are off. The mural will look one way when the lights are first turned out... and totally different 3 hours later.

 

• Stars seem to twinkle... naturally. Something about the paint and the cones and rods in your eyes will have you swearing that the stars are really twinkling.

 

• No smell.

 

• Can be painted on most finishes.

 

• Usually done in a day.

 

• No need for a crawl space in your ceiling for the mural to be painted. Nor is there the need to add a false ceiling. You regular ceiling is just fine.

 

• Invisible in the light... just like the real night sky at noon. Your room will look like it always has when the lights are on.

 

 

The ”Cons” to having a painted mural:

 

• The cost can get up there, but usually less than fiber optics.

 

• You need to make cookie dough for some artists. :-)

 

• You need a fairly dark room for the mural to be seen as intended.

 

• You need a good fluorescent light source to charge the paint for 10 minutes (Still, plugging in a black light or two is easier than wiring for fiber optics).

 

• You could get a bad professional (Do your due-diligence).

 

• Invisible in the light. This is a “Con” if you want then to be visible in the light.

 

 

Here is what the painted murals look like in the light and in the dark. Again, we do have a special paint (and others might have something too) that will allow the stars to glow under a black light in a semi-lit room.

 

 

 

OK, I tried to give a fair overview of some different options for a star ceiling. But, whatever option you choose... get a star ceiling done. They are so incredibly relaxing and romantic. You've designed everything for the light... now just do this one thing for the dark. You will be so happy you did.

 

If you have a day-sky (blue sky and clouds) painted on the ceiling... then get a night sky painted on top of that. When the lights are on, the day-sky will be visible. When the lights go out... the night sky will appear. It's very cool!

 

OK, I have gotten many questions about the murals from people who are building home theaters... and home theaters are probably my number one area to paint in.

 

Please ask any questions that you have and I will try to answer them for you.

 

If you are in the building stages.. and can still add in wiring to power some lights... I can tell you where you should have them placed. If you can still add a soffit around the top... I can give you good ideas about how to build that too.

 

So, if you are considering stars in your ceiling.. ask away and I will try to help you out.

Edited by nightsky - 10/1/10 at 3:50pm

Harpero...

 

I'll bet that looked really nice. I've only done a few truly domed ceilings and they are fun to do. And, when you add in a

day-sky too... that is my favorite background to paint my murals on. I love the twin murals (even if I can't paint the 

day-sky).

 

Here is one that I painted my mural on top of. The customer had a friend paint the day-sky first, then i can in and painted

my Night Sky Mural on top of it. The night sky is on the mural in the picture. You just can't see it.

 

 

 

Here is the same mural when the room is dark and a black light turned on. Please keep in mind that the camera is only

picking up about 1/10 of the visible stars. Even with a movie playing, if the black light is on... you will still see quite a 

few stars.

 

 

 

 

Here is the same mural, as shown above, but with all lights turn off and the room very dark. Again, the amount of stars

that the camera picked up is only about 1/10th. This mural was, I think, 10 x 12... and there are over 3000 stars in it,

plus the Milky Way, which are all not visible to the camera. 

 

 

 

Is this similar to what you were talking about?

 

Most glow paints that you will find at a store will not be what you want to paint with. Besides being very visible in the

light, the paint will only glow for about 20 minutes in the dark. I can probably sell you some paint if you want to do

something like this yourself. 

 

But, be careful if you attempt it yourself, unless you know what you are doing. I have gone in to paint on ceilings where

I could see that the owner had tried their hand at it before calling me. :-) And, I also say that from experience too. When

I first wanted to see if it was possible to paint a night sky on a ceiling... I destroyed many ceilings. If, on the other hand,

you can do it... then go for it.

 

And, if you want some guidance in painting a mural... then I would suggest getting a stencil that you can tape up on

your ceiling. Then, you just paint through the holes and you will get a very basic, but nice mural. I can also suggest a

stencil. There are 4 or 5 star stencils on the Internet, but there are 3 or 4 really bad ones. I know of only one decent

one. 

 

 

Jeff

Hi David...

Sorry for the delay in getting you answered. I just haven't had access to the forum, to be able to answer, for some reason. Hopefully, I will be able to reply from here on out. We'll see.

As for soffits, you would need to talk with a contractor about that. I usually just suggest them and the homeowner will then talk with the contractor.

But, if you are still looking into having a soffit built, then when you speak with someone about building you one.... you will want to consider a few things.

• You will need power up inside of the soffit to plug in any black lights that you put up there
• To be effective, the soffit will need to be below the ceiling by a minimum of 12".... but 18" to 24" would be the best. (If you have a huge room... the the last two number are a must)
• The soffit in the picture you mention is down 24" from the ceiling and out from the side walls 36".
• Depending on how far you come out from the wall... the bottom of the soffit could be a great place for LED lights that you could put on a dimmer for subtle lighting around the room.
• The inside bottom of the soffit should be on an angle, no just flat. I would angle the inside bottom, from the front edge angled back to where the ceiling and side walls meet. This will work great to angle your black lights so that the light shoots out toward the center of the ceiling in the middle of the room.
• When you paint your mural (if you DIY, or if you have someone paint it for you) then have the stars go back to the side walls, not stop at the front edge of the soffit. That just adds a dimension to the 3D effect.

If you want, I recorded a little video about soffits (I plan to do a better one as soon as I have time) that you can watch. Actually, I have one that is even worse, as far as entertainment value... but it is with the owner of that ceiling that you mentioned. I will put links to both videos.

Here you go. Videos about soffits: ( I will try and embed the videos so that you can stay in the forum. IF they don't work... then the links will be below)





Regular links to the same videos:
http://youtu.be/fpVSi6fG00M
http://youtu.be/WPAxq2-Popc


Black Lights:

As far as I know... black lights, and most other fluorescents (including CFL lights) are not dimmable. Some CFL light are these days, but most will burn up quickly if you try to use them on a dimmer.
What you are looking for in a black light (or fluorescent light) is the light wave to be in the 360ma to 400ma range. The closer to 360ms the better. For some reason, that light wave is what activates the pigments in the paint which, in turn, creates a nice star ceiling. Don't spend too much time studying the light waves. What I have found is that most black light will work just fine. I did find a company that says they sell the most powerful black lights in the world... and if that pans out, I will let you guys know where you can find them. For now, I am still researching them.

I have been experimenting with LED UV lights and have, within the past month, found some exciting things. I have gone to companies that specialize in LED lights and have experimented with all types of them over the years... and nothing works like a good ole black light. But, from what I stumbled upon this past month, there may be hope of having LED UV lights that will work, and will be dimmable, cooler, and easier to work with. Again, I will keep testing and let you guys know.

I hope this answers your questions. If you are already beyond this stage... then it might possibly help others with the same question.

Jeff
Night Sky Murals


quote name="DavidBick" url="/t/304549/star-ceilings-painted-vs-fiber-optics#post_3804410"]Really interesting posts, Jeff.  I'd love to recreate the look of the first ceiling you showed... where do I start?  How does one get a soffet?  Are they sold prefab or do you have to start from scratch?  Also, how was the black light done?  In other words, what kind of black lights do you buy that are not only dimmable but able to be controlled via Luton/X10?  

Thanks!
[/quote]

i Brian... Thanks for your comments. Hopefully, I will be able to help people out with good information. Please ask questions if you have 'em.

Jeff
Night Sky Murals

Hi Wayne...

You can find good paint from many places on the net... just do your due diligence and research them. Most places will use the same (or very similar) pigments in their paints... but the difference is in the amount of pigments that they put into their paint. More pigments = brighter glow and longer lasting glow. But, it also means that with more pigments in the paint (at least paint that is supposed to dry clear) the greater chance of the stars being visible in the light, which is what you don't want.

I don't sell my paints to anyone, and don't advertise this, but for people of this forum (or others where I try and answer questions) I will do it for you guys. But, again, there are many places that will sell you good paint. I know that Glow Inc (which someone else already advertised in this thread) has good paint. Also, a company called Ready Set Glow has good paint. I used to think that RiskReactor had good paint, but was disappointed in some of their paint, and in some of their hype. Most of those places will have thinner paints than I use. I like my paint thicker. I used to buy it from online stores, or other suppliers before the Internet grew.... but I decided that to get what I wanted out of my paint... I needed to mix my own. But, for most people, one of those other stores, mentioned above will do you right.

So, hopefully that helps you out.

Oh, you mentioned something about "Cosmic Clouds". Were you talking about the paint, or a stencil for that?

I don't know of any stencils for that, but the same places I suggested for paint should be able to sell you paint for those. Just figure out what colors you want them to be and buy it. Then you just need to figure out how to paint one. I have pained them in the past, but avoid them if at all possible these days. I now will only paint in the Milky Way (pretty much every mural) because I want to paint realistic murals of the night sky, as you would see from earth. I stay away from deep space paintings. To me, they look too cartoon'ish, so I leave that to others to do.

Jeff
Night Sky Murals

Leo.... Good post. Wildfire, I have found, has good quality lights but I have not looked into their paints. From what I have seen, they do more with paints that glow under a black light, then disappear when the lights are turned off... as opposed to glow paints. For anyone with artistic talent... this would be a great option. You could paint a really cool mural on the walls, ceiling... anywhere that would only be visible under black lights. And, from what I remember... then have different colors, so full-color paintings would be very possible.

Definitely a place to look into. As for their black lights... they seem to be some of the best available (at least according to their advertising). Most black lights will do a good job at charing glow paint, but if you have a large area to cover, but limited space to put black lights... then Wildfire might be worth looking into.

Thanks Leo!

Jeff
Night Sky Murals



quote name="Leo Kerr" url="/t/304549/star-ceilings-painted-vs-fiber-optics#post_3813162"]I'm not a star-ceiling expert, but I can offer some advice that I hope isn't too far out-of-line.

On a paint-perspective, there's a maker of theatrical black-light paints that (allegedly) go on clear.  They're Wildfire.

On a light perspective, I've run into a lot of black-light fluorescent fixtures, and, in my humble opinion, they're Evil.  I'm not sure how controllable they are via Lutron or X10 systems, but I'd look into some of the UV LED solutions out there.  Look at a DJ lighting supplier, some Best Buys, or, of course, The Big Google.. the ones I'd look for would accept DMX control, but most people don't want to muck around with that.  (Though if you've a spare computer, there are some nice little USB to DMX adapters..)

Leo
[/quote]

Hi Ray...

I just answered a similar question about paint... (so you can check out one of my new answers right above this one)... but here is a suggestion if you are looking into painting a star-ceiling (and if you haven't already done it).

Get some good paint - staying away from sulfur based paints that only last 20 minutes or so.
I would suggest staying away from multi-colored murals. Use Aque and Blue and call it good. Most other paints of different colors don't glow very long and aren't very bright. Aqua is the best choice, IMHO, and a little blue thrown in just to add a little color would be fine.

Good luck with your mural...

Jeff
Night Sky Murals

Hi Richard.... Thanks for your nice comment. Yes, that other forum's thread has over 75,000 hits on it and a lot of people are getting involved and offering suggestions.

I will try again, to help people here. I am just not as free to offer advice here, so I only check in from time to time. I will be happy to help out here too. Let's just see how things go. :-)

Jeff
Night Sky Murals

Hi Peter.... Let me state this again, for everyone who has posted questions and comments in this thread, that I am so sorry for seeming to have abandoned you guys. It wasn't my intention.

And,, thanks for your "WOW" comment. :-)

Painting a mural would definitely be easier to experiment with than F.O... then, if that doesn't work for you, you could always go that route.

As I mentioned in a question I just answered... if you will look a couple of questions up above, i go into the paint question. I also answered, in passing, the question about different colors in a mural. But, let me do that again for you here. IMHO, I would stay away from different colors, at least if you want your mural to look natural. When you go outside and look up at the sky you don't see 10 different colors and that is why I stay away from many colors. Now, to to have full-disclosure here, I will say that I am color-blind, so maybe you see more colors than I do. :-)

If you are going for deep-space objects with nebula and things... then different colors are probably OK. But for what I do, and most people want to accomplish... then Aqua and Blue are your best bet.

Now, as for practicing in your closet first... YES!!! Closet first, then Utility room, then bathroom, your neighbors ceilings... all before you try it in a room you really care about. :-) Even when I train people to paint these murals... I try to get them to practice, practice, practice. Most won't do that and their murals suffer. So, good call on the closet first.

If you mess that up and want to find someone in your area... I can probably suggest a painter or two who will do a decent job for you. But, there are many who will tell you that they will do a mural like everyone else that paints... but that is so not true. If there are 50 painters in your area who do these types of murals... you might find one, maybe two who will do a nice job. That is just what I have discovered.

And, for your DIY project... stay away from places offering FREE instructions. They will tell you that these murals are easy to do and that they will give you the techniques needed to DIY. But, they are mostly offered by companies who want to sell you paint... so they sat down for 15 minutes or so and came up with a set of instructions. Trust me... they are terrible. And, I have pictures to prove my point.

If you are still wanting to try a mural... then let me know and I will try to give you some good pointers.

And, so you know, I am in Houston probably 3 or 4 times a year. Dallas, Austin and San Antonio too. I was sit in Amarillo a few months ago. So, if it comes down to not being able to find someone, then let me know and I would be happy to help you out.

When I read Houston.... Rudy's BBQ popped into my mind. I love working in Texas and plan most of my jobs there around Rudy's locations. :-) Seriously, they have some good BBQ!!!

Jeff
Night Sky Murals