The Deputy - Complete

Does anyone have any idea of what we should expect as far as quality for this set.  The reviews on Amazon were very critical of the video quality of the previously released 12 episode "best of" set?  I'm generally pretty happy with TMG, but Laramie was almost unwatchable, and I don't want to make a blind buy on this show and end up with a bad set.

Doug, I'm pretty sure these prints will be solid.  I can't vouche for this 100%, but I'm pretty sure Timeless is getting these prints from a Universal/NBC source where the prints were stored and kept in pretty good condition.  Again, I'm not 100% sure about that but I think it's a safe bet that these prints will look similar to those on the Frontier Circus, Wagon Train S1, and Whispering Smith dvd sets. 

Gary "my guess is that most anything Timeless puts out from this point forward that is a Uni/NBC property will look decent" O.

Glad to know that you feel that way Gary!  I've been more than happy with all of those other sets that you mentioned.  I'm going to put The Deputy on my list as a pretty safe bet.

Doug

Laramie looked like it was made from 10th generation VHS tapes that had sat in the sun too long.  Whispering Smith was the last TMG set that I watched and found it to be very enjoyable and it's really all I'm looking for from what has been a pretty reliable company.  By the way, since I've never seen The Deputy, how is the scripting?  I'm imagining it is a solid B grade western along the lines of maybe The Tall Man, The Texan, or Cimarron City.

With Laramie what was lost were the videotape masters used for cable rebroadcast done off the 35mm elements.    Universal would have to make a new set of transfers from the 35mm elements to give us better versions of that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack P 

With Laramie what was lost were the videotape masters used for cable rebroadcast done off the 35mm elements.    Universal would have to make a new set of transfers from the 35mm elements to give us better versions of that.

BUT TIMLESS IS TOO F-ING CHEAP TO SHELL OUT THE MONEY - Heck,they didn't even do a decent job of tracking 16mm prints down of the series,either. This series has more "dubs" than 16mm print transfers than any of the shows sourced that way

IF/WHEN Encore Westerns or someone well picks LARAMIE the show up,and they spring for new masters, the TIMELESS would get access for little or no extra lab-costs. It's the lab costs that are a killer - some as high as $5000 per half hour!

Anyone see the CHECKMATE complete series?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeWilson 

BUT TIMLESS IS TOO F-ING CHEAP TO SHELL OUT THE MONEY - Heck,they didn't even do a decent job of tracking 16mm prints down of the series,either. This series has more "dubs" than 16mm print transfers than any of the shows sourced that way

 

IF/WHEN Encore Westerns or someone well picks LARAMIE the show up,and they spring for new masters, the TIMELESS would get access for little or no extra lab-costs. It's the lab costs that are a killer - some as high as $5000 per half hour!

 

Anyone see the CHECKMATE complete series?

 

You do realize there is a difference between being cheap and not having the funds, right? Timeless isn't made of money, they get the best they possibly can and release it. I'm not always thrilled with what we get, but given their limitations, am grateful to be getting most of this stuff at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattPeriolat 

 

You do realize there is a difference between being cheap and not having the funds, right? Timeless isn't made of money, they get the best they possibly can and release it. I'm not always thrilled with what we get, but given their limitations, am grateful to be getting most of this stuff at all.

No, it's being cheap - as they would rather release lots of sub-part product rather than a smaller amount of quality product. If they spent the same budget on a smaller line of quality releases, they could have put the funds into quality,not quanity.

If it's a matter of funds then don't release sub-par releases. There's no reason why they HAD to use  'dub' material to rush to offer  "complete sets" when they could have just kept releasing the clean transfers from 16mm prints rather than dilute the acceptible quality 16mm transfers with piss-poor 'dub' material. They don't do much if any work on the "dub" material either would a little noise reduction,filter for pure B&W,and ajust the contact and white balance take that much work,does it?

The only reason there are quality releases on THE VIRGINIAN is there already exists a set of masters, thanks to ENCORE and RTV, THE LARADO ran on Lone Star in Canada and RTV here in the states. The Hour long TALES OF WELLS FARGO aired in Canada as well.

 

It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall for the meetings where DVD release decisions are made. And not just for the small companies like TMG and Shout!, but also the big ones like CBS/Paramount. I'm sure TMG is having to staddle a fine line. While I agree more could be done to bring about higher quality releases, I'm not sure the cost would necessarily bring in the revenue to compensate. That is what probably puts them in a tough position.

Denny, you suggest less but higher quality product vs. more products where we get a mix of subpar and decent quality (depending on the source they get). That is assuming enough additional purchases will be made to equally compensate for the higher cost to produce. I'm not sure it would work out that way for them with the obscure titles they support. Most fans will buy it regardless, while some won't because of quality issues. Higher quality would probably increase sales some but (my guess) probably not enough.

So while I would like the idea of better quality, I would rather have a TMG in business providing something then out of business providing us with nothing because another model didn't work for them. I also have enjoyed discovering some of these more obscure titles that might have lost out in the higher quality model. So without more financial details it is hard to say what model would work best or even at all. All I can say for sure is that they are still in business, which is good enough news for me based on these types of titles.

Now I have to agree with you in general (not just TMG) about the lack of some simple filtering that could be done easily enough. It is frustating when a release has a "greenish" hue that could have easily been removed. Almost all b/w shows I get from alternate sources get run through a b/w filter to remove even the faintest additional hue. It takes a little more time and requires encoding again but I hate having to fiddle with my TV controls to achieve what should have been done from the beginning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeWilson 

BUT TIMLESS IS TOO F-ING CHEAP TO SHELL OUT THE MONEY - Heck,they didn't even do a decent job of tracking 16mm prints down of the series,either. This series has more "dubs" than 16mm print transfers than any of the shows sourced that way

 

IF/WHEN Encore Westerns or someone well picks LARAMIE the show up,and they spring for new masters, the TIMELESS would get access for little or no extra lab-costs. It's the lab costs that are a killer - some as high as $5000 per half hour!

 

Anyone see the CHECKMATE complete series?

 

      You do realize that companies are in business to make money, right? A company like Timeless is really the only one putting out these types of obscure, unseen in decades, shows. The market for them is extremely limited. Maybe they might sell a couple thousand copies, maybe a few more if they're lucky. And you think they should spend hundreds of thousands of dollars remastering? Yeah, it would be great if everything looked good from 35mm prints, was uncut and had no music substitutions. How often does that happen? The less a show will sell, the less money a company will put into it. Laramie wasn't around on 16mm and TMG wasn't going to pay Universal's fees for transfers. Personally, I think its a lousy show anyway but people wanted it and they did the best they could with what they had to work with. Thankfully, since the fire, Universal has done some invertorying and elements have been found and made available. I believe from now on, most of the shows should look pretty good.

That's good news, Gary, thanks for sharing your, shall we say, learned optimism about future TMG releases. And great posts, Brad and Neil. I agree with everything you wrote.

    Quote:

Originally Posted by Point-Blank 

That's good news, Gary, thanks for sharing your, shall we say, learned optimism about future TMG releases. And great posts, Brad and Neil. I agree with everything you wrote.

Thanks, Walker.  I feel pretty good about our chances of seeing solid prints with this upcoming set from Timeless.   As Neil mentioned, there was a small blessing in disguise with the fire at the Uni lot a few years ago, namely that another source was found and it has resulted in us seeing some beautiful prints of these older shows. 

Gary "I'm just hoping the economy allows for TMG to keep up the great work they've done this year and expand that into next year and beyond" O.

As I've said earlier, I have NO problem with the use of 16mm - a good wet-gate digital transfer from a decent print looks good - but I don't understand why Timeless would licence a show they'd have problem getting prints on - besides LARAMIE, I believe they are having trouble tracking down the half-hour episodes of TALES OF WELLS FARGO, which is why so few have been released.

I think they should have just stuck with releasing shows from 16mm and not even attempt to release "dub" material.  IF they arn't going to pay for new transfers - even for filler episodes where they haven't found 16mm prints - then the should just release what they have.

TIMELESS is NOT using 16mm print because of the Fire, but because of the lab-fees to get access to the 35mm - anything they get in decent quality as I also mentioned earlier was on hand already transfered for past,current and future broadcasts and didn't require new transfers.

Thankfully,yhere was more than one "working vault" at Universal, so it's been eaiser for them to take stock of what's on hand.  The main vault in the salt mines are safe, and the only real impact was the 35mm film rental library for the revival houses - that took a hit. Unlikely Universal will strike up new prints of older films that were lost if they are only going to get a couple rentals a year,and that's sad.

    Quote:

Originally Posted by DeWilson 

 

TIMELESS is NOT using 16mm print because of the Fire, but because of the lab-fees to get access to the 35mm - anything they get in decent quality as I also mentioned earlier was on hand already transfered for past,current and future broadcasts and didn't require new transfers.

Denny, what we are saying about the Fire is that it caused Universal to search out these other vaults in a way that they might never have done otherwise.  And because of that, they found some wonderful looking prints of different 50's and 60's shows, some of which everyone presumed was forever gone ("Whispering Smith" being the primary example).  It just seems weird to me that you'd insist a smaller outfit like Timeless spend oodles of money remastering series they'd never get an adequate return on.  That's the bottom line.  They simply do not have the finances to do what you are asking they do.  But thankfully, because of the Fire, another source/vault was opened up and many treasures have been discovered - in better condition than anyone ever thought possible with many of these shows.  It's a win-win all the way around for everyone involved.

Gary "very excited about some of the series Timeless will be releasing this Fall/Winter and, hopefully, next year" O.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary OS 

    Quote:

 

Denny, what we are saying about the Fire is that it caused Universal to search out these other vaults in a way that they might never have done otherwise.  And because of that, they found some wonderful looking prints of different 50's and 60's shows, some of which everyone presumed was forever gone ("Whispering Smith" being the primary example).  It just seems weird to me that you'd insist a smaller outfit like Timeless spend oodles of money remastering series they'd never get an adequate return on.  That's the bottom line.  They simply do not have the finances to do what you are asking they do.  But thankfully, because of the Fire, another source/vault was opened up and many treasures have been discovered - in better condition than anyone ever thought possible with many of these shows.  It's a win-win all the way around for everyone involved.

 

Gary "very excited about some of the series Timeless will be releasing this Fall/Winter and, hopefully, next year" O.

I understand the finance issues - But what I'm suggesting in general is if a company (Regardless of Size) takes on a licence they should do it right,and if acceptable source material - may it be from existing masters or film prints from outside sources isn't available, either spend the funds for new masters to be struck, and if it isn't cost effective to do it, then don't do that series at all. But if the finances and long-term return is good,then do it.

If only some of the episodes of a series have been located either from 16mm or existing masters, then put out just what you have -  Putting out sub-par product isn't the way to best serve the market.either the general public or collectors/fans. I wouldn't have had a problem is all they used just 16mm prints - but the use of "dubs" to fill gaps is just unprofessional. Why try to be 'complete' when just having some product out there would fill the nitch. I'd rather see a set with 10-12 episodes of LARADO from 16mm across the complete series,than season sets full of 'dubs',  M-SQUAD was something like 10 or so episodes from "dubs", and they stand out. 

How many threads have there been about the quality of TIMELESS material - even with the recent releases being from newly located prints at UNIVERSAL (and I assume 16mm prints where needed)  They will have this "stigma" attached to them till the end of time. 

I do support what TIMELESS is doing, I just don't like spending money and not knowning how many "dubs" will turn up in a set.

I agree that the Laramie release was a mistake, not even having seen what it looks like. From what I understand, it is off of someone's off-air VHS records and I don't even know if they are good off-air records. Why they would feel the need to put something like that out, I have no idea, since its not even a good show. But, for whatever reason, they seemed to be hell bent on releasing it in whatever form they could come up with. As for M Squad, I provided them with good film chain copies of at least a third of the episodes. Why they would put some on that were dubs, I don't know. All I know is that I provided them with good copies of whichever ones they asked me about that they didn't have good quality on. Only one of those, even I had a crappy copy of and basically it was a matter of using garbage or having one episode missing.

I understand that DVD, from its inception and the general execution of product, has spoiled many of us in terms of what is and isn't presentable quality, but this feeling of entitlement, the notion that we all deserve to maintain our own private little archives of pristine materials baffles me. My history of HTF posts will show that I am one of the last people to ever defend any corporate entity, but I also have to live in the real world and sometimes there isn't any gray, it's as simple as black and white:

TMG isn't blameless, but they also aren't in business to lose money, especially in an ultimately futile effort to placate those ardent fans of something that for most people is either an unknown or long forgotten artifact of television history. Perhaps they could have done more to insure that releases like M SQUAD were developed with better standards, but to what end? So a relative handful of consumers could afford the escalated price of the set TMG would be forced to charge in order to justify the extra effort and expense? I'm sorry, but this frustration and disappointment over a mixed set seems to me to be a bit misguided. Either don't buy the set in the first place and wait for something better or buy the set and don't watch those instances of offensive material that are so unceremoniously inserted to please the completest. 

Life is a series of compromises and as much as we all want to indulge our penchant for idealism, even in or maybe I should say especially in our hobbies and pastimes, there comes a reality which dictates you should probably scale back your expectations and entitlements.  I'm not telling anyone not to choose the battles that they believe are most significant to them, and I certainly have been at the front lines for things like THE FUGITIVE and ROUTE 66, but at some point I think you have to make a decision to move on. A complete archival quality set of TALES OF WELLS FARGO just ain't going to happen.

And if you have reason to question the quality of a release, or choose to question all releases, just wait until the reviews come back. No one says you have to be first in line.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil Brock 

I agree that the Laramie release was a mistake, not even having seen what it looks like. From what I understand, it is off of someone's off-air VHS records and I don't even know if they are good off-air records. Why they would feel the need to put something like that out, I have no idea, since its not even a good show. But, for whatever reason, they seemed to be hell bent on releasing it in whatever form they could come up with. As for M Squad, I provided them with good film chain copies of at least a third of the episodes. Why they would put some on that were dubs, I don't know. All I know is that I provided them with good copies of whichever ones they asked me about that they didn't have good quality on. Only one of those, even I had a crappy copy of and basically it was a matter of using garbage or having one episode missing.

That's what I'm scratching my head about - why they were so eager to get "complete" material out and resorting to dubs or worse,off air recordings of questionable quality when they've rounded up large quanities or 16mm and/or clean film chaned copies.


 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Point-Blank 

I understand that DVD, from its inception and the general execution of product, has spoiled many of us in terms of what is and isn't presentable quality, but this feeling of entitlement, the notion that we all deserve to maintain our own private little archives of pristine materials baffles me. My history of HTF posts will show that I am one of the last people to ever defend any corporate entity, but I also have to live in the real world and sometimes there isn't any gray, it's as simple as black and white:

 

TMG isn't blameless, but they also aren't in business to lose money, especially in an ultimately futile effort to placate those ardent fans of something that for most people is either an unknown or long forgotten artifact of television history. Perhaps they could have done more to insure that releases like M SQUAD were developed with better standards, but to what end? So a relative handful of consumers could afford the escalated price of the set TMG would be forced to charge in order to justify the extra effort and expense? I'm sorry, but this frustration and disappointment over a mixed set seems to me to be a bit misguided. Either don't buy the set in the first place and wait for something better or buy the set and don't watch those instances of offensive material that are so unceremoniously inserted to please the completest. 

 

Life is a series of compromises and as much as we all want to indulge our penchant for idealism, even in or maybe I should say especially in our hobbies and pastimes, there comes a reality which dictates you should probably scale back your expectations and entitlements.  I'm not telling anyone not to choose the battles that they believe are most significant to them, and I certainly have been at the front lines for things like THE FUGITIVE and ROUTE 66, but at some point I think you have to make a decision to move on. A complete archival quality set of TALES OF WELLS FARGO just ain't going to happen.

Standards are important - A set of what is available of 16mm transfers is acceptable - a good wet-gate transfer is as close to pre-digitial NTSC broadcast quality standards as possible - so why muck up a box with lesser quality 'dubs' or worse, off-air tv recordings.  If they can't source all from available prints,and going back to studio masters isn't cost effective - I would rather have some in uniform quality, than all mixed  - Why should I paid for a box set of shows and have a number of them sub-part jusy to call it complete. WHY even put them there? That's the point. Would it had made a difference it the M-SQUAD box was missing a handful of episodes? I don't think so. Add to the fact they could do better post-production work on the "dubs" they use.

TIMELESS is in business to make money - but putting out mixed quality content only hurts them - the average person doesn't care if a series is complete when it comes to this older stuff.,all they will remember is the product was mixed.

As a consumer, we vote with our dollars, and accepting sub-part product just allows companies to continue to offer such that. It's not a matter of expectations of entitlements, it's a matter of quality goods for money spent. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeWilson 

TIMELESS is in business to make money - but putting out mixed quality content only hurts them - the average person doesn't care if a series is complete when it comes to this older stuff.,all they will remember is the product was mixed.

 

As a consumer, we vote with our dollars, and accepting sub-part product just allows companies to continue to offer such that. It's not a matter of expectations of entitlements, it's a matter of quality goods for money spent. 

We know that you prefer to have subpar prints left out, but I don't believe we have established that the average person agrees (or even the majority of those in this forum). If anything, since being on this forum I would say more people are completest then the other way around. And really what does it hurt to have a few subpar prints within a set if the completest can be satisfied and others can ignore. Take the "Checkmate" as an example. The first release probably had the best quality episodes. The complete set has subpar to ensure it is complete. It is quite possible people asked for more and this was the only way to achieve that. While some have complained of the quality, other have been satisfied. A person has two different options depending on theirs preferences. As for "M Squad", I'm happy to have the set, a few subpar doesn't bother me at all.

As a consumer, I am voting with my dollars, and I have several of their releases. And I am perfectly satisfied with how they are approaching things. If not for TMG I might never have experienced some of these shows at all. So for me, I prefer to have options to experience more types of shows then just one's that have higher quality prints available. And there are always reviews available soon enough to support "on the fence" decisions. No reason to make completely blind-buy purchases.

Quote:

Originally Posted by smithb 

 And really what does it hurt to have a few subpar prints within a set if the completest can be satisfied and others can ignore.

 

It adds to the cost of the product - these additional sub-par "dub" episodes to make them  'complete' take up more discs/disc space, and adds to the production cost,and thus the final cost of the item. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by smithb 

As a consumer, I am voting with my dollars, and I have several of their releases. And I am perfectly satisfied with how they are approaching things. If not for TMG I might never have experienced some of these shows at all. So for me, I prefer to have options to experience more types of shows then just one's that have higher quality prints available. And there are always reviews available soon enough to support "on the fence" decisions. No reason to make completely blind-buy purchases.

I totally agree with this, Brad, and will continue to do the same thing. I just don't think the market will bear Timeless going the extra mile. Given the reality, I don't expect them to do so and instead of bemoaning what they are not doing,  I have chosen to enjoy what they are doing.

Denny, I give up. My advice to you is to write  Timeless with your concerns and if and until they produce a set you can be unequivocally happy with, you should not buy their product.  Problem solved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Point-Blank 

 

I totally agree with this, Brad, and will continue to do the same thing. I just don't think the market will bear Timeless going the extra mile. Given the reality, I don't expect them to do so and instead of bemoaning what they are not doing,  I have chosen to enjoy what they are doing.

 

Denny, I give up. My advice to you is to write  Timeless with your concerns and if and until they produce a set you can be unequivocally happy with, you should not buy their product.  Problem solved.

I'm not looking for the extra mile, we agree that Timeless isn't able to go the extra mile due to budget,demand,etc - I'm looking for the first mile - only release acceptible quality product without padding it out with 'dub' material to give the illusion of 'complete'.

I'm not picky - I can live with edited episodes and music substitutions,with off-the-shelf 20-30 year old masters,unrestored clean transfers,and the afformentioned 16mm prints. But "dubs","off-airs" that arn't even worked on with color correction/filter,audio ajustment/noise reduction is where I draw the line.
 

FWIW, I'm in complete agreement with Walker and Brad on this one.  Timeless is A-OK in my book.

Gary "done with this thread unless it's a discussion about the actual set that's being released next month" O.

My understanding is 'The Deputy'  prints were retrieved from a warehouse so quality should be acceptable.Hoping, of course, they are not edited down syndicated versions though I have no reason to think they are.

As for the argument about inclusion of inferior quality items in previous Timeless releases, I would agree that the 'Laramie' sets were sub par but I was still glad to get them, likewise M Squad. I waited until I saw a few reviews so knew what I was getting.Realistically , this sort of material is never going to come out any other way.

The season 1 'Wagon Train' set had a few episodes which had been copied from video tape taken from the UK run some years back. Without the inclusion of these segments the series would have been a couple of episodes short. I am sure most purchasers were happy they were included though.

Silverking,
  I hope the new "The Deputy" series, looks better than the four episodes, that were on my "TV Western Classics"
6-Disc set I ordered from Timeless. They were terrible.

Well...I just saw an episode of Deputy that came with one of my Western TV collections. The video quality was low as expected in one of these sets. I wouldn't be surprised if the release is much better based on them having access to studio prints.

The episode wasn't bad and Allen Case did a fairly good job in the role. Not sure about the eye patch seargent character. All in all, I probably would have considered getting this set based on this sample, except for one thing. The idea of Henry Fonda just kind of walking in from time to time disrupts the whole thing for me. I know he was the selling point and he took the job to be closer to home with a new baby, but he has too much star power for this and for me it detracts from the show. Anytime he shows up I expect so much more but I'm afraid his roll will never deliver.