Samsung DLP and 3D

Quote:

Originally Posted by drrichardh 

I am well aware that technology is constantly evolving and the unit you purchased today is already on its way to being obsolete even as you are driving home from the store. That said I own a Samsung DLP set which was purchased in 2007 (HL-T5087S) which was sold as being capable of delivering a 3D picture. I tried to follow up on that claim back in 2007 and found it required the use of an external computer running software to convert material and send it back into the tv. There was no information on sound formats.  Since that time the HDMI spec has been updated and a standard set for 3D blu ray players and televisions.

 

I am curious as to the chances of this older set being able to connect to these new 3D capable delivery systems,  My guess is that it won't be possible but I'd appreciate hearing from others who probably have far more experience and knowledge about this.

 

Certainly lots of confusion on the Samsung sites as well as a lot of anger at Samsung apparently abandoning their legacy sets.

There are several reports that certain Bluray players are indeed compatible with the Samsung and deliver very nice 3D movies -- I'm assuming this will work for your specific set.

http://forums.highdefdigest.com/3d-gear-movies/103615-legacy-samsung-3d-ready-dlp-rptvs-will-not-compatible-mits-3dc-1000-a.html

The CBL/Sat 3D channels are more confusing since it will use a slightly different method of producing 3D.   Mits and Samsung earlier DLP supposedly used similar technology and Mits has released an adapter box to allow most/all the current 3D to work.   Reports have circulated that the Mits boxes will not (yet) work with Samsung sets, though from the sound of it this is not a closed loop.   Samsung reps have stated that they "expect" the Mits boxes to work with their sets so my guess is some sort of negotiations b/w Mits and Samsung is going on behind the scenes.    Since the exclusion is based on Set ID, I would think this will be firmware correctable either legally once the Corporations agree or fairly quickly the hackers will have a workaround like they always do.

http://broadcastengineering.com/production/mitsubishi-offers-kits-convert-hdtv-3-d-20100622/

DLP 3D works a little different than the True3D full resolution method currently used by Samsung, Panasonic, LG and soon Sony.  The DLP divides the screen into a "checkerboard" and combines the left and right views into a single frame, essentially giving you a half resolution image.  Mits box converts the full frame to the checkerboard.

Image from mtbs3d

I think that the Panasonic 3D Blu-ray player can output a 3D checkerboard pattern.  If it can then you probably won't need the adapter box Mits is making if you have that player.  You will still have to get glasses and an emitter.  I'm hearing that Direct TV will not be supporting it for their 3D channels so for those you will have to hope that Samsung and Mits work something out as you will need an adapter.

I chatted with a live rep on Samsung's site awhile back about this. He said there's an adapter for our sets. It costs over $100. I told him where they could put it. 3D was one of the selling points  advertised with these sets. Customers bought these in good faith, thinking we were getting something that we're evidently not getting, without spending a bunch more money. They should give us the adapters, to make their advertising true. We'd still have to buy the glasses, which aren't cheap either ($300 for two pair). Of course, I don't see this happening..........

If you own a Samsung DLP 3D ready TV, you can now buy an adapter from www.tru3d.com that is pre-formatted to work with the Samsungs and that will convert most of the current 3D formats available now into the checkerboard format accepted by the Samsung. You can buy the Mitsubishi 3D-A1 and Geffen HDMI Detective yourself and save around $80, but then you need to find a Mitsubishi DLP TV to plug the Geffen into so that it can learn the EDID of the Mitsubishi. You'll also need LCD shutter glasses, which are required by all 3D televisions, and either a 3D Blu-ray player or a PS3 with the current 3D software update. Alternatively, the Panasonic DMP-BDT300 3D Blu-ray player can output the checkerboard format required by DLP TV's. If you go the Mitsubishi adapter route you can buy an HDMI splitter and also route your 3D cable TV box through the adapter, as it accepts the 3D formats that are output by the cable companies.

     I bought the Samsung HL-T5089S in 2007, and the 3D feature was an "extra" feature that did not really influence my purchase decision then. It was simply a great TV and still is. Fast forward to late 2010 and I've been reading the posts about 3D and whether I could actually get it up and running on my set. Excitement turned to disappointment when Mitsubishi announced that their 3D-A1 converter would not work with the Samsungs. That has now changed to excitement again. It turns out that with the addition of an EDID "spoofer", such as the Geffen HDMI Detective, the Mitsu box could be fooled into thinking it was hooked up to a Mitsu DLP. Tru3D just preprograms the Geffen and sells it along with the 3D-A1 as a package. I ordered this setup, along with two pair of Viewsonic PGD-150 DLP-link shutter glasses. I have the PS3 with the latest software update, and downloaded three free demos that can be played in 3D; WipEout HD, Motorstorm: Pacific Rift, and Super Stardust HD, and also purchased "Cloudy with a chance of Meatballs" and "IMAX: Grand Canyon Adventure :River at Risk".

     First of all, on the Samsungs you must use HDMI input "3" and label it "PC" in the input menu. You hook up the Playstation HDMI out through the Geffen, into the Mitsu 3D-A1 and then directly into the TV. You'll need to use the optical audio out on the PS3 to your AV receiver if you have one and want to listen to surround sound. Most receivers will not pass the 3D EDID info unless you have a brand new one that has this spec. No problem, optical is fine - you'll have full surround sound in the compressed bitstream formats (DTS and Dolby 5.1, etc.). The DLP-link glasses work by syncing up to a light pulse that is emitted directly from the TV screen between frames (pretty amazing). Sometimes they have to re-sync themselves and you can see the flickering and then they lock in. They also seem to lose the image-lock more often during the daytime, when there is more ambient light (I also read that florescent lights may affect them - try turning off your bias light and see if it makes a difference...)

     Some people have described the 3D effect on TV's as "looking into" the television as opposed to objects "coming at you". This is solely due to the size of the screen. In a theater the screen pretty much takes up your entire field of vision, and so objects do appear to come straight towards you. At home (my Samsung is a 50") the frame edge dictates how far toward you the image can appear to travel. The effect stops at the frame edge, sort of... On a 50 inch screen, you can sit as close as six feet away with HD content (the DLP checkerboard 3D on the 1080p TV is equivalent to 720p - still HD) and this does make a huge difference to the "coming at you" effect. Unfortunately, you can't sit everyone six feet away... time for a 3D DLP projector and 10 ft screen!

     To me 3D is an "effect", like reverb on a vocal track, albeit a very impressive effect (ever listen to "dry" vocals?...) You do sacrifice image quality in comparison with 2D with the checkerboard format in order to present two images simultaneously, and there are inherent limitations to stereo filming, such as "double images" and "ghosting". Some of this is apparently due to the focal range/depth of field, and so for objects that are within the focal range, the 3D effect is perfect, but if you focus on background objects outside the focal range, there will be some double imaging. There is also a "paper cutout, pop-up book" effect in certain shots, also dependent on depth of field. This has nothing to do with the TV or glasses. The 3D effect reminds me of those posters that if you cross your eyes a little you see 3D depth pop out at you. Your eyes feel a little funny after awhile, but I remember feeling that way after walking out of an IMAX 3D movie theater. All in all, it is pretty stunning, and when the effect is locked in and everything is in focus and in sync it is a wonderful thing to be able to have in your living room. As for the 3D games, they are a lot of fun and also pretty impressive. They appear to suffer from even more flickering of the shutter glasses and re-acquiring of image lock than the movies, apparently due to the fact that the software has to create the 3D imagery "on the fly" and in real time as opposed to films or CG movies where the 3D is set into the production, and this is something that I am certain will improve as more developers bring new product to the 3D table over time.

     Yes, I had to lay out nearly $500 for two pair of shutter glasses and the adapter. Was it worth it? Absolutely. Even my wife is impressed. I've already ordered two more pair of shutter glasses so that we can invite a couple of friends over...

     I bought the Samsung HL-T5089S in 2007, and the 3D feature was an "extra" feature that did not really influence my purchase decision then. It was simply a great TV and still is. Fast forward to late 2010 and I've been reading the posts about 3D and whether I could actually get it up and running on my set. Excitement turned to disappointment when Mitsubishi announced that their 3D-A1 converter would not work with the Samsungs. That has now changed to excitement again. It turns out that with the addition of an EDID "spoofer", such as the Geffen HDMI Detective, the Mitsu box could be fooled into thinking it was hooked up to a Mitsu DLP. Tru3D just preprograms the Geffen and sells it along with the 3D-A1 as a package. I ordered this setup, along with two pair of Viewsonic PGD-150 DLP-link shutter glasses. I have the PS3 with the latest software update, and downloaded three free demos that can be played in 3D; WipEout HD, Motorstorm: Pacific Rift, and Super Stardust HD, and also purchased "Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs" and "IMAX: Grand Canyon Adventure :River at Risk".

     First of all, on the Samsungs you must use HDMI input "3" and label it "PC" in the input menu. You hook up the Playstation HDMI out through the Geffen and the Mitsu 3D-A1 and then directly into the TV. You'll need to use the optical audio out on the PS3 to your AV receiver if you have one and want to listen to surround sound. Most receivers will not pass the 3D EDID info unless you have a brand new one that has this spec. No problem, optical is fine - you'll have full surround sound in the compressed bitstream formats (DTS and Dolby 5.1, etc.). The DLP-link glasses work by syncing up to a light pulse that is emitted directly from the TV screen between frames (pretty amazing). Sometimes they have to re-sync themselves and you can see the flickering and then they lock in. They also seem to lose the image-lock more often during the daytime, when there is more ambient light (I also read that florescent lights may affect them - try turning off your bias light and see if it makes a difference...)

     Some people have described the 3D effect on TV's as "looking into" the television as opposed to objects "coming at you". This is solely due to the size of the screen. In a theater the screen pretty much takes up your entire field of vision, and so objects do appear to come straight towards you. At home (my Samsung is a 50") the frame edge dictates how far toward you the image can appear to travel. The effect stops at the frame edge, sort of... in 3D it's as if you are looking inside the screen. On a 50 inch screen, you can sit as close as six feet away with HD content (the DLP checkerboard 3D on the 1080p TV is equivalent to 720p - still HD) and this does make a huge difference to the "coming at you" effect. Unfortunately, you can't sit everyone six feet away... time for a 3D DLP projector and 10 ft screen!

     To me 3D is an "effect", like reverb on a vocal track, albeit a very impressive effect (ever listen to "dry" vocals?...) You do sacrifice image quality in comparison with 2D with the checkerboard format in order to present two images simultaneously, and there are inherent limitations to the stereo filming, such as "double images" and "ghosting". Some of this is apparently due to the focal range/depth of field, and so for objects that are within the focal range, the 3D effect is perfect, but if you focus on background objects outside the focal range, there will be some double imaging. There is also a "paper cutout, pop-up book" effect in certain shots, also dependent on depth of field. This has nothing to do with the TV or glasses. The 3D effect reminds me of those posters that if you cross your eyes a little you see 3D depth pop out at you. Your eyes feel a little funny after awhile, but I remember feeling that way after walking out of an IMAX 3D movie theater. All in all, it is pretty stunning, and when the effect is locked in and everything is in focus and in sync it is a wonderful thing to be able to have in your living room. As for the 3D games, they are a lot of fun and also pretty impressive. They appear to suffer from even more flickering of the shutter glasses and re-acquiring of image lock than the movies, apparently due to the fact that the software has to create the 3D imagery "on the fly" and in real time as opposed to films or CG movies where the 3D is set into the production, and this is something that I am certain will improve as more developers bring new product to the 3D table over time.

     Yes, I had to lay out nearly $500 for two pair of shutter glasses and the adapter. Was it worth it? Absolutely. Is it cool that a three year old TV can do 3D? Way cool! Even my wife is impressed. I've already ordered two more pair of shutter glasses so that we can invite a couple of friends over...

 I bought the Samsung HL-T5089S in 2007, and the 3D feature was an "extra" feature that did not really influence my purchase decision then. It was simply a great TV and still is. Fast forward to late 2010 and I've been reading the posts about 3D and whether I could actually get it up and running on my set. Excitement turned to disappointment when Mitsubishi announced that their 3D-A1 converter would not work with the Samsungs. That has now changed to excitement again. It turns out that with the addition of an EDID "spoofer", such as the Geffen HDMI Detective, the Mitsu box could be fooled into thinking it was hooked up to a Mitsu DLP. Tru3D just preprograms the Geffen and sells it along with the 3D-A1 as a package. I ordered this setup, along with two pair of Viewsonic PGD-150 DLP-link shutter glasses. I have the PS3 with the latest software update, and downloaded three free demos that can be played in 3D; WipEout HD, Motorstorm: Pacific Rift, and Super Stardust HD, and also purchased "Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs" and "IMAX: Grand Canyon Adventure :River at Risk".

     First of all, on the Samsungs you must use HDMI input "3" and label it "PC" in the input menu. You hook up the Playstation HDMI out through the Geffen and the Mitsu 3D-A1 and then directly into the TV. You'll need to use the optical audio out on the PS3 to your AV receiver if you have one and want to listen to surround sound. Most receivers will not pass the 3D EDID info unless you have a brand new one that has this spec. No problem, optical is fine - you'll have full surround sound in the compressed bitstream formats (DTS and Dolby 5.1, etc.). The DLP-link glasses work by syncing up to a light pulse that is emitted directly from the TV screen between frames (pretty amazing). Sometimes they have to re-sync themselves and you can see the flickering and then they lock in. They also seem to lose the image-lock more often during the daytime, when there is more ambient light (I also read that florescent lights may affect them - try turning off your bias light and see if it makes a difference...)

     Some people have described the 3D effect on TV's as "looking into" the television as opposed to objects "coming at you". This is solely due to the size of the screen. In a theater the screen pretty much takes up your entire field of vision, and so objects do appear to come straight towards you. At home (my Samsung is a 50") the frame edge dictates how far toward you the image can appear to travel. The effect stops at the frame edge, sort of... in 3D it's as if you are looking inside the screen. On a 50 inch screen, you can sit as close as six feet away with HD content (the DLP checkerboard 3D on the 1080p TV is equivalent to 720p - still HD) and this does make a huge difference to the "coming at you" effect. Unfortunately, you can't sit everyone six feet away... time for a 3D DLP projector and 10 ft screen!

     To me 3D is an "effect", like reverb on a vocal track, albeit a very impressive effect (ever listen to "dry" vocals?...) You do sacrifice image quality in comparison with 2D with the checkerboard format in order to present two images simultaneously, and there are inherent limitations to the stereo filming, such as "double images" and "ghosting". Some of this is apparently due to the focal range/depth of field, and so for objects that are within the focal range, the 3D effect is perfect, but if you focus on background objects outside the focal range, there will be some double imaging. There is also a "paper cutout, pop-up book" effect in certain shots, also dependent on depth of field. This has nothing to do with the TV or glasses. The 3D effect reminds me of those posters that if you cross your eyes a little you see 3D depth pop out at you. Your eyes feel a little funny after awhile, but I remember feeling that way after walking out of an IMAX 3D movie theater. All in all, it is pretty stunning, and when the effect is locked in and everything is in focus and in sync it is a wonderful thing to be able to have in your living room. As for the 3D games, they are a lot of fun and also pretty impressive. They appear to suffer from even more flickering of the shutter glasses and re-acquiring of image lock than the movies, apparently due to the fact that the software has to create the 3D imagery "on the fly" and in real time as opposed to films or CG movies where the 3D is set into the production, and this is something that I am certain will improve as more developers bring new product to the 3D table over time.

     Yes, I had to lay out nearly $500 for two pair of shutter glasses and the adapter. Was it worth it? Absolutely. Is it cool that a three year old TV can do 3D? Way cool! Even my wife is impressed. I've already ordered two more pair of shutter glasses so that we can invite a couple of friends over...

Hmm... veddy veddy interesting, as I have the last of the Samsung DLP-LED TV from 1.5 years ago when they quit the DLP game.  But unless I get an unexpected windfall, not sure if I'll pony up for the adapter or the glasses.  Maybe they'll make 3D glasses for my cat by then, he seems to like to watch TV with me at times.  LOL.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Sun 

Hmm... veddy veddy interesting, as I have the last of the Samsung DLP-LED TV from 1.5 years ago when they quit the DLP game.  But unless I get an unexpected windfall, not sure if I'll pony up for the adapter or the glasses.  Maybe they'll make 3D glasses for my cat by then, he seems to like to watch TV with me at times.  LOL.

I have the same vintage DLP-LED set, so it's nice to know there is a way to make this work. However, after viewing a Sony 3D demo at Sears last weekend, I am not planning on spending a dime on 3D technology. I was very unimpressed with the demo.

Update to above; I was having consistent problems with the Viewsonic DLP-link shutter glasses going out of sync and flickering alot. I tried turning off the fluorescent bias light, inverted the polarity on the glasses and the TV, and compared daytime viewing to nightime, along with distance from the TV. At first I thought that this was normal and was the state of the art at the moment. after reading through alot of blogs and posts I decided to return the Viewsonics and ordered the Xpand 103's with emitter. I will post again once I receive them and have a chance to compare.

Good call on trying to turn off the bias light Robert.  I have heard good things about Xpands glasses and look forward to hearing about your experience with them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Merryfield 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Sun 

Hmm... veddy veddy interesting, as I have the last of the Samsung DLP-LED TV from 1.5 years ago when they quit the DLP game.  But unless I get an unexpected windfall, not sure if I'll pony up for the adapter or the glasses.  Maybe they'll make 3D glasses for my cat by then, he seems to like to watch TV with me at times.  LOL.

 

I have the same vintage DLP-LED set, so it's nice to know there is a way to make this work. However, after viewing a Sony 3D demo at Sears last weekend, I am not planning on spending a dime on 3D technology. I was very unimpressed with the demo.

 

Yeah, I think I'll probably just sit this upgrade out as well at this point.  Maybe if they had orchestrated the whole 3D rollout properly in a timely manner, I might've gone for it.  But honestly, I'm just not impressed enough even w/ theatrical 3D (after seeing Toy Story 3 in 3D)...

_Man_

Update on the Xpand 103 Universal IR shutter glasses: I received the X103's this week and have had a few days to evaluate them now. Basically, I plugged in the IR emitter to the Mitsu box, turned  on the glasses, scrolled through to the Samsung preset on the glasses (you do this one time) and bang!, they work perfectly. After my experience with the Viewsonic DLP-link glasses losing sync all the time it was such a pleasure to have the 3D experience just work seamlessly. The X103's also fold, unlike the Viewsonics, although the build quality isn't nearly as nice. Many people have had good results with DLP-link glasses. According to Reed Johnson, president of www.tru3d.com, the Viewsonics are not as sensitive as other DLP-link glasses, and that's why they don't carry them. He also pointed out that in dark scenes, prevalent in many video games for example, the light pulses that activate the DLP-link may not be strong enough and therefore cause the glasses to lose sync. I would also like to add that my Samsung DLP TV uses an LED light engine, and the light output of this model is 600 cd/m as compared to 800 cd/m for mercury lamp based models, and so the DLP-link feature may not work as well due to the overall light output being less. The 3D effect seems to be more in focus as well, as I had previously discussed depth of field focus perhaps being an issue - I can say now with glasses that work properly that everything is in focus regardless of the depth of field. All in all, I am very happy with this setup, and now own four pairs of X103's and plan on purchasing two more pair so I can max out the seating in my home theater. Another advantage of the X103's is that when your friends get 3D TV's sometime in the future you'll be able to bring over your own glasses and they won't have to fork out the extra bucks to buy additional glasses. Now just waiting for Avatar...

Thanks for the update Robert.  I have a Panasonic, but have been looking at the X103s as a solution for extra glasses.

hi guys

2 things to note:

1. DLP is not inherently doing a checkerboard, that is just the way the manufacturer is implimenting it. DLP can fully support full rez at 60 frames. 

2. You really need to try to stay with OEM glasses. If you change brands (ie: oakley, monster, logitech) there will be huge color differences as there is no standardization of color hue for the glass color tint.

FWIW,

Gregg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregg Loewen 

2. You really need to try to stay with OEM glasses. If you change brands (ie: oakley, monster, logitech) there will be huge color differences as there is no standardization of color hue for the glass color tint.

That's just great!  One more thing to worry about w/ 3D hardware upgrade.

Thanks for the heads up, Gregg...

_Man_

that's why Joel Silver recommends calibrating the 3D input on your HDTV while wearing the 3D glasses.