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iPhone or Droid Incredible? In other words, is AT&T really so bad? - Page 4

post #91 of 353

The problem with this calculator is that the Evo screen at 800 X 480 is wider than the NTSC screen, which results in a wider viewing angle, which means you can get closer to it than a 720 X 480 screen. 

 

Unfortunately I don't know how to calculate it off-hand.  As soon as the androidforum is up and running again, I'll ask the the experts.

post #92 of 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveF View Post


My comments are informed by my demo of the more advanced Droid: it was a usability disaster. I'm tech savvy and couldn't figure it out. I would never shackle a non tech-savvy person with that if an iPhone was an option :) Probably the HTC Sense-enhanced, 2.1+ Android phones are better. But an HTC Hero over an iPhone for a wife? Really?

 

 

I do not know which Android-based phone you tried out, but I have to agree with Hanson -- if you cannot figure out a Droid phone, then you just were not trying very hard. My HTC Droid Eris was the first smart phone that I have owned, and it was a snap to figure out. Yes, I am a techie, but the device did not require any technical savvy to setup or use. The only issue I had, with the old Android 1.5 OS, was getting my Yahoo email to work on the device (Gmail and Comcast email worked fine). It took an Internet search and some advanced configuration settings to remedy that problem. However, this bug has since been fixed in version 2.1 of the OS.

post #93 of 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanson Yoo View Post
In reference to the iPad, do you really think that anyone would have been interested in it if it weren't for the Apple imprimatur?


Yes I do.  This is the reason why I was hot on Courier and down on Windows 7 tablets, despite them having the same manufacturer.  Er would have.

 

It has nothing to do with the cache of the manufacturer but that the manufacturer who finally did it had the balls to throw out everything that wouldnt work on a tablet (ie stupid styluses) and bear down and do the hard work of making an os, a ui, a revolutionary touch interface, and the damn low battery power CPU to run it.

 

EVERYONE ELSE WILL FAIL until they do those three things.

Multitouch

10+ hours battery life

Effortless and elegant UI powered by a rocket CPU.

 

Can Google do that?  Not until they embrace hardware in house and anoint a director of taste.  ie Android Tablets will be just as clunky as Android phones.

Can Microsoft do that?  A J Allard led team might have.  Ballmer led teams won't.  Ray Ozzie won't.   Do you think the Zune (er windows 7 mobile team) will.  Hah!  The disastrous Kin / Danger team?  DOUBLE HAH.  A skunkworks team is going to have to come from out of the bowels of Microsoft with NO BAGGAGE to make this work.  I'm even scared that the XBOX team has lost its way since its founders are now all gone.  Will what's left of the team step up and make a worthy successor to the Xbox lineage?  Could the Xbox team make a tablet?

Can HP do that?  MAYBE.  Especially if they don't piss off / squander the Palm guys they ate, which they probably will.   Or maybe put the Voodoo guy in charge of it.  If anybody has a shot, it's HP.  And that is scary.

 

Can ANYONE ELSE do that?  Maybe HTC.  But I doubt it.

post #94 of 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Merryfield View Post

I do not know which Android-based phone you tried out, but I have to agree with Hanson -- if you cannot figure out a Droid phone, then you just were not trying very hard.

Exactly the one I said: the Droid.

I figured it out. But it was a complete mess. It was classic "designed by engineers": smash every feature in, without regard to the actual users. Basic inputs for core utilities were inconsistent: there were at least three different "OK" button types. Rudimentary input displays rambled offscreen both vertically and horizontally with no indication that you had to scroll to to basic things. Making basic calendar entries stymied both my wife and me for several minutes. The keyboard was a disaster, e.g. pressing "D" gave me "SDFE". When I picked up an iPhone for the first time, it just worked. When I picked up the Droid for the first time, it was worse than the worst MS software I've used. It showed an utter contempt for human factors design.

 

And as 30 years of Microsoft have shown, most people don't care a white about design and usability. But these days, I do. And I spend money on it, within my means.

 

Things are probably better now. That was 2.0 (I think). HTC's Sense and Motorola's Motoblur are said to be nice. Android 2.2 is said to be a big improvement over even 2.1. I've not used them.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanson Yoo View Post

Yes, the forum is currently down, but for you to dismiss my post out of hand as "rubbish" without even getting to read it reeks of close-minded dogma. 

No, it's based on an academic and professional background in optical science, some basic thought experiments, and a bit of basic math :) "PPI" and "DPI" are terms of art in different areas, but the intent is equivalent for this discussion: discrete features per unit length. It doesn't matter whether it's reflective or transmissive (photons are photons), the human eye can resolve about 1 arcmin (caveats already given). And as I said, I'm not speaking about moving images, only static images. I suspect this is what the SMPTE guidelines are about, since they are the *Motion* Picture society. We may well resolve far worse than 1 arcmin for moving images. If so, watching movies on a 150 element-per-inch may be visually indistinguishable as watching a movie on 300 EPI :)

 

If the link is back alive, I might able to read that discussion directly.

post #95 of 353

On a completely different note, this is intriguing.

http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2010/07/google-demos-codeless-android-development-tool-for-students.ars

 

I wish there was something like this for the iPhone. I'd like to dabble in app development, but I don't have time to relearn Obj-C, InterfaceBuilder, and 16 years of evolution past what I knew about NeXT development from my college days.

 

post #96 of 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanson Yoo View Post

There is (for me) and amazingly informative post on androidforums.com regarding screen resolutions and visual perception:

http://androidforums.com/htc-evo-4g/97224-evo-screen-pixel-density.html


It's working. I skimmed it. There's nothing contradictory to what I've said. The most prominent poster is not an expert and is only speculating on differences between reflected and emitted light sources. SMPTE is never quoted, only referred to broadly (or obliquely).

 

As I've already said, I agree that contrast ratio, color adjacencies, etc. play roles in our visual acuity. The stuff that appears to contradict is in reference to motion, particularly the related to the mechanical aspects of 24 fps film. And certainly perception of motion is a more complex topic than static scenes -- I can't and don't speak much to that.

 

But when the motion stops, and you're reading that page of high-contrast text, as in an eBook, email, webpage, or calendar entry, you can distinguish somewhere around 300 pixels per inch, viewed up close. :)

post #97 of 353

Dave, if you have a background in optical sciences and equate dpi with ppi, someone has led you very much astray.

 

ppi is a pixel density measure.  dpi is for printing.  The two are not one to one correlations:

 

http://www.tildefrugal.net/photo/dpi.php

 

So the basic issue is that dpi in relation to printing has zero to do with an LCD screen or its resolution.  All of those comparisons Jobs made between printed matter and pixel density were complete rubbish.

 

My thought experiment is this -- once you cannot see pixels, no matter how many you add, you cannot resolve any more than the point where you cannot see them.  This is common sense.  At 12", I cannot see pixels (and I have 20/20 vision thanks to the miracles of laser eye surgery).  I have shown the screen around -- no one can see them.

 

You counter that some magical unconscious force allows us to see that we cannot see.

 

My thought experiment is that larger fonts require less focus and there for less eyestrain. 

 

You believe that smooth fonts, even at teeny tiny sizes, will somehow cause less eyestrain.

 

Both of your conclusions sound like rubbish to me.

 

In any case, the link is back up, so have fun.  Some of it is a bit impenetrable for me, but I get the basic gist -- the Retina screen is marketing hype worthy of Monster Cable.

post #98 of 353

Hanson,

 

It's probably just a matter of semantics that Dave used ppi and dpi interchangeably although yeah I found it a tad confusing too, especially when bringing in the subject of printed matter (and what the heck Steve Jobs was actually refering to as well).

 

Still, the confusion about dpi is not limited to the print world.  In the world of scanners, dpi is very often used instead of ppi, and that useage of dpi is not the same as the one in the print world.  And if used strictly in the display world (w/ no mention/comparison/etc to the print world), I also would tend to assume the writer is simply using dpi to mean ppi.

 

However, that does not mean ppi has no relevance in the print world -- as it surely does.  It's just that we need to be extra careful what we mean when we talk about the print world because generally ppi != dpi in the print world.

 

Having said all that, personally, I think using the print world to argue that seeing pixels at all is a bad thing is not a good argument anyway.  IMHO, printed matter has all sorts of other artifacts that easily offset the single issue of seeing pixels in the displayed version.  It's just that many (older) folks are more used to seeing the printed artifacts and are not bothered by them as much, if at all.  Someone like me who's probably equally used to seeing both are not bothered by either (as long as they're "good enough").

 

_Man_

post #99 of 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanson Yoo View Post

So the basic issue is that dpi in relation to printing has zero to do with an LCD screen or its resolution.  All of those comparisons Jobs made between printed matter and pixel density were complete rubbish.

We've got a profound communication problem, then. I wish we could talk live. This would be much easier to explain with a whiteboard and color markers :)

 

At the heart, it's all the same thing. DPI, in the simplest view, is the number of black dots per inch (think monochrome laser printer). It is the number of discrete image units per inch. This is a direct analogue to a (monochrome) display pixel.

 

The link you sent me refers to a specific type of printing, where dithering is used to fake color by printing multiple colors in close proximity. But this is not the only method of printing. It can also be done by directly combining multiple colors to create the actual desired color on a given spot. And in this case, we can still speak of minimal image element  per square inch, which again is an analogue to active display mediums.

 

But still, that "dithering" view of dpi is a useful illustration, as it's representative of how display technologies work: While the iPhone 4 display has a pixel density of 300 ppi, it really has a higher "dpi", in the printing sense, because each pixel is composed of three sub-pixels (RGB) that cannot be resolved by the eye and appear as a single color unit. Likewise your old CRT: each pixel is really from a triad of RGB phosphors being turned on to create a full-color pixel. But we don't speak of sub-pixel resolution; we cheat and talk about the equivalent pixel resolution. And so I do when talking in general about printing results.

 

Quote:

My thought experiment is this -- once you cannot see pixels, no matter how many you add, you cannot resolve any more than the point where you cannot see them.  This is common sense.  At 12", I cannot see pixels (and I have 20/20 vision thanks to the miracles of laser eye surgery).  I have shown the screen around -- no one can see them.

 

I basically agree. And the well established science is that 1 arc-minute is the approximate resolution limit for humans. In many cases, depending on contrast and the particular colors adjacent to each other, and the rate of image motion, people will resolve only larger features. But you want to design to the limit, to the "best viewing" case. And for a handheld device about 8" away from a person with properly corrected vision, that's about 300 pixels-per-inch.

 

To deny that is to deny human physiology and basic physics :)

post #100 of 353

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveF View Post

We've got a profound communication problem, then. I wish we could talk live. This would be much easier to explain with a whiteboard and color markers :)

 

At the heart, it's all the same thing. DPI, in the simplest view, is the number of black dots per inch (think monochrome laser printer). It is the number of discrete image units per inch. This is a direct analogue to a (monochrome) display pixel.

 

The link you sent me refers to a specific type of printing, where dithering is used to fake color by printing multiple colors in close proximity. But this is not the only method of printing. It can also be done by directly combining multiple colors to create the actual desired color on a given spot. And in this case, we can still speak of minimal image element  per square inch, which again is an analogue to active display mediums.

 

But still, that "dithering" view of dpi is a useful illustration, as it's representative of how display technologies work: While the iPhone 4 display has a pixel density of 300 ppi, it really has a higher "dpi", in the printing sense, because each pixel is composed of three sub-pixels (RGB) that cannot be resolved by the eye and appear as a single color unit. Likewise your old CRT: each pixel is really from a triad of RGB phosphors being turned on to create a full-color pixel. But we don't speak of sub-pixel resolution; we cheat and talk about the equivalent pixel resolution. And so I do when talking in general about printing results.


Yeah, I wasn't sure if you wanted to go that far into thinking about dpi for displays.
 

In fact, in the past year or two, some camera makers (like Nikon) are even touting better LCDs on their cameras based on that and even quoting the number of separate RGB dots on their LCDs, instead of the basic old pixel count.

 

FWIW, dye-sub printers seem to be out of fashion nowadays (although I still use one when I print 4x6 at home on occasion), but that would be one printing tech that more closely resembles display tech and typically quotes resolution using ppi as such -- and to my eyes, 400ppi photographic prints (from ~1ft away) is indeed noticeably better than 300ppi on these dye-sub prints, and 300ppi would be my minimum requirement for standard 4x6 prints that are intended to be view from typical viewing distance -- 200ppi would indeed look rather soft from same distance (although 200ppi display would probably look more jagged or "digital" than soft OTOH).

 

Imaging sensor tech are somewhat similar in that respect as well -- and I was fascinated some years back to learn that the earliest color photographs were created using 3 separate monochrome plates using different (RGB) filters (shot one at a time).  We may think we've advanced a long way since the late 1800's, but the basic (practical) principles/theories used are still basically the same.   Actually, w/ imaging sensors, in most cases, the quoted pixel count is not the true res (like we're equating for ppi in this thread), but is typically just the (Bayer) interpolated res where the original sensor elements are actually equivalent to the dots in "dpi", insteaad of the pixels in "ppi", so to speak...

 

_Man_

post #101 of 353

You guys all know you are perpetuating the preposterous, right?

 

Either you are happy with a display or you are not.

 

I liked the 3GS screen.  I LOVE the iPhone4 screen.  All the 'regular' droid type phones I tried out looked ok inside but like crap in sunlight.  The Droid X or whatever the big ass droid phone I tested out looked like crap to me and was too kludgy to handle.  But that's just me.

 

YMMV.  Arguing about it further than your own preferences makes you all look silly.

post #102 of 353

C'mon dad, we were having fun and no one got hurt.

 

Besides Sam, I've seen you get your knickers in a twist on the HTF before.  Disagreements are what makes this a forum.

 

Besides, aside from you, me, Man, Dave, and the occasional post from Tony, I don't think more than two other people even read this thread.  

post #103 of 353

wave.gif

post #104 of 353

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Posten View Post

YMMV.  Arguing about it further than your own preferences makes you all look silly.

I'm not arguing, I'm explaining some basic visual science and optics :)


Edited by DaveF - 7/14/10 at 6:57am
post #105 of 353

And Dave is blathering on in order to justify holding his phone much closer than most people do in order to read his tiny little screen.

post #106 of 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Posten View Post
 All the 'regular' droid type phones I tried out looked ok inside but like crap in sunlight. 


That is the one complaint I have regarding the screen on my Droid Eris. It is extremely difficult to see in bright sunlight. Otherwise, it is perfectly acceptable for its purpose... and yes, I do watch mp4 videos on it. I have converted some of my SD-DVD's (mostly TV shows) to mp4 to watch when we travel.

post #107 of 353

Carry on then! 

 

All I'm saying is that the screen is important but if that's the only criteria you are going to judge a phone on (and so far that's been 90% of this thread) then there's no way anything said here, science fact or fiction, is going to make a difference in what any of you believe about these devices...

post #108 of 353
post #109 of 353

But Sam, the Evo prints money and grants wishes!  This is not just a screen issue!  That's just the trap Dave engineered.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL7yD-0pqZg


Edited by Hanson - 7/14/10 at 9:19am
post #110 of 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveF View Post

http://xkcd.com/386

 


That IS a classic.  But don't make me bust out the 'arguing on the internet is like...' picture cause it trumps your move!  =)

 

despite being totally uncivil.

post #111 of 353

Glad I got the right link. I'm googling blind at work: XKCD is blocked as being "humor" and internet humor is prohibited by Corporate Ethics! :D

post #112 of 353

Giz confirms what I wrote about the test unit I tried out, the Droid X is almost maliciously clunky.

http://gizmodo.com/5587225/motorola-droid-x-review

 

Oh, and for your OPEN source phone?  It needs a jailbreak to do anything interesting, just like a certain product from Cupertino.

http://www.mobilecrunch.com/2010/07/14/droid-x-actually-self-destructs-if-you-try-to-mod-it/

http://gizmodo.com/5587801/motorola-is-willing-to-break-the-phone-they-just-sold-you

post #113 of 353

I have "played around" with a variety of the Android-based phones and have found all of them capable smartphones; but to date none of them provide the smoothness of operation provided by the iPhone. 

 

Just as an example: The number one downloaded Android app is currently "Advanced Task Killer".  I wonder why that is?

 

post #114 of 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Posten View Post

Giz confirms what I wrote about the test unit I tried out, the Droid X is almost maliciously clunky.

http://gizmodo.com/5587225/motorola-droid-x-review

 

Every Droid X review I've read is very positive, so I'm surprised at the extreme negativity of the Giz review.  Most of his criticisms center around MotoBlur rather than Android itself.

 

Quote:

Oh, and for your OPEN source phone?  It needs a jailbreak to do anything interesting, just like a certain product from Cupertino.

http://www.mobilecrunch.com/2010/07/14/droid-x-actually-self-destructs-if-you-try-to-mod-it/

http://gizmodo.com/5587801/motorola-is-willing-to-break-the-phone-they-just-sold-you

 

Sam, I'm gonna have to call you out for trolling.  The bolded statement is embarrassingly overstated.  Most of the things the Android phones do that the iPhone can't do not require rooting.  Most people root their phones to clear away unneeded programs and UI skins.  The only programs that people specifically root their phones for is tethering without paying a tethering fee.
 

post #115 of 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Bolus View Post

I have "played around" with a variety of the Android-based phones and have found all of them capable smartphones; but to date none of them provide the smoothness of operation provided by the iPhone. 

 

Just as an example: The number one downloaded Android app is currently "Advanced Task Killer".  I wonder why that is?

 


ATK is actually a Windows legacy thing -- from what I've read, you don't need it, it actually mucks up the OS, and I don't use it.  But people are used to the idea of killing programs to save memory after years of PC and WinMo use even though Android and Windows manage memory differently.

 

If you're used to the iPhone, other phones would seem unintuitive, especially if you play with it for a couple of minutes.  Conversely, I'm not used to the iPhone and I'd still have to learn how to use it to access all of its features.  I can just as easily pick up an iPhone and find it unintuitive.

 

"Smoothness of operation" is a statement that is so vague it borders on nonsense.

post #116 of 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanson Yoo View Post

 

If you're used to the iPhone, other phones would seem unintuitive, especially if you play with it for a couple of minutes.  Conversely, I'm not used to the iPhone and I'd still have to learn how to use it to access all of its features.  I can just as easily pick up an iPhone and find it unintuitive.

 

"Smoothness of operation" is a statement that is so vague it borders on nonsense.

Tastes differ, but my experience was opposite: the iPhone made immediate sense at first touch (two years ago, seeing a coworker's for the first time). The Droid felt, as Giz said, "intentionally malicious" in the first few minutes (a year ago, at Verizon).

 

Systems are learnable and powerful tools aren't always intuitive. But to me a test-drive experience of Android was the antithesis of the iPhone. And reading this review, it makes me wonder if it's something with Motorola's software in general, since people say good things about HTC Sense and about Android 2.2.

post #117 of 353

I have to say that in regards to the Droid X, that default background is violently ugly.  Now, I'm sure the reviewer hated the widgets Motorola provided.  But it really takes all of a couple of minutes to delete them and restore the default Android versions.  However, the writer found the hook for his article, and while I actually found it a funny read, it seemed less a substantive review than a comedic rant ("ice-scraper-cum-phone" had me rolling).  If you go to the more even-tempered reviews, the Droid fares a lot better.  Some of those reviewers actually thought the MotoBlur additions put it on par with Sense.

 

I still don't understand how making phone calls from an iPhone "makes more sense" than making a call from an Android phone, regardless of UI.  Or checking email.  Or downloading apps.  They all seem the same to me.

post #118 of 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanson Yoo View Post


ATK is actually a Windows legacy thing -- from what I've read, you don't need it, it actually mucks up the OS, and I don't use it.  But people are used to the idea of killing programs to save memory after years of PC and WinMo use even though Android and Windows manage memory differently.

 

 

Hanson,

 

You may want to check out this CNET video which claims that Task Killers provide one of the tools that should be utilized in order to help conserve battery life on the HTC Evo "and other Android-based phones":

 

http://cnettv.cnet.com/maximize-battery-life-htc-evo/9742-1_53-50090025.html

 

 

 

 

 

post #119 of 353

Whether a task killer is needed or not is a huge debate in the Android user community -- it's a religious war about on the same level as the old "Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD" wars around here a couple of years ago.  Personally, while I had a task killer installed for awhile (and found it interesting to see what was actually running on the OS), I have since uninstalled it because it really didn't provide any value to me. I do not have battery life issues, and the phone runs fine without it. ATK was actually spiking the CPU more than the apps running in the background.

post #120 of 353

I have read many other articles that say exactly the opposite.  In fact, if you kill tasks that are supposed to be on all the time, you actually lose battery performance because Android keeps relaunching them:

 

http://androidspin.com/2010/05/25/why-you-dont-need-a-task-killer-app-with-android/

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