Home Theater Forum › Home Theater Forum › Blu-ray, DVD, Streaming Video and Digital Downloads › Blu-ray › A Few Words About By Robert Harris › A few words about...™ The African Queen -- in Blu-ray
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

A few words about...™ The African Queen -- in Blu-ray

post #1 of 151
Thread Starter 
From all appearances The African Queen was definitely not a "fun" shoot.   Encamped in the Belgian Congo for much of the time, and with other scenes taken in Uganda before returning to LA, the production played havoc with the cast, crew and apparently the film stock.

For those who might like to read about it, copies of Ms. Hepburn's The Making of the African Queen: Or How I Went to Africa with Bogart, Bacall and Huston and Almost Lost My Mind is available at all price levels at Abebooks.com.  Want a copy signed by Ms. H. You'll find it there.

Look at any original dye transfer print, and certain things become extremely obvious. Contrast was always inconsistent -- I have no idea where the film was processed, how long it sat before getting shipped to the lab, under what conditions it was shipped -- color is occasionally on the murky side from natural lighting, and early matte shots combining the Queen with backgrounds look precisely like what they are.  Keep in mind that The African Queen was produced six decades ago.

Over the following decades, the original elements sat in less than stellar conditions, until Paramount (through Viacom, which does not own all rights to the film) finally was given permission to scan the original elements in the UK.

Scanning is generally easy, as long as the elements aren't severely shrunken, have splices that hold together, aren't notched multiple times, and aren't held together by rolls of adhesive tape.  Taking those scans and actually doing something with them can however, be a totally different story.

Some three-strip films fit together like butter.  Properly stored nitrate (not acetate) can generally hold its dimensions and yield a superior image.  Here, shrinkage was beyond that of the normal digital functions, and hand fitting had to come into play.

The audio, derived from optical sources, is what it is, and it sounds quite good.

What I'm leading up to here is the fact that after viewing Paramount's new Blu-ray of John Huston's 1951 classic (even more "classic" than The Princess and the Frog), that the Blu-ray essentially looks as the film has throughout the decades when properly printed. Some scenes can look brilliant in that way that only three-strip Technicolor can, and others, due to the necessities of filming in Africa in 1951, without a plethora of generators and banks of lights, look as they were filmed.

My point is that one should not expect a film that looks like either The Wizard of Oz or Gone with the Wind.

I've seen some comments on line regarding the Blu-ray not having uncompressed audio, and I'll throw my nickel's worth in on that situation.  A digital track reproduces audio perfectly as what it is.  If produced well, uncompressed audio makes everything cleaner, sharper and better.

But take an old track, that may not have been recorded under the best of conditions, especially in analogue, and the final playback can be heavily affected by the actual playback mechanism.  I'll give you an example.  When 70mm prints were struck on "Vertigo," all except for one, were produced in the new DTS 70 system, with DTS timecode printed along the edge of the film.  The DTS system will produce whatever you feed it, and precisely.  When we compared the DTS prints against the single magnetic print, it became very evident that the quality of the original tracks did less well in playback via the digital system than through magnetic analogue.  The DTS system actually reproduced the old tracks too well.  What we had lost was a smoothing that one gets in the analogue world.  With neither compression nor analogue, the tracks were just a bit too revealing of problems.

That said, might an uncompressed digital track of a sixty year old film sound worse than a compressed track.  Very possibly.  Is there anything to be gained by going uncompressed in this particular situation?  Possible, but doubtful.

As an aside, I've seen The African Queen with two different main titles sequences, one with clear lettering, as has been used here, and another with yellow titles.  I have no idea which were originally used where or for what purpose.

Several years ago, an original print was taken to the UK and run for DP Cardiff, with notes taken by the studio's Barry Allen. These must have come in helpful toward bringing this disc to fruition.

So there you have it.  The African Queen finally arrives in not only DVD, but Blu-ray from Paramount.  And to my eye, it looks as it should.  Grain has an overall natural appearance, with only an occasional hint of it holding in place.  Color and densities are what they should be.  Here is one of the true classics of the cinema, in rare and near perfect form, scanned in the UK, put together, color corrected and readied by Warner's MPI in Burbank.  If you feel the need to write a letter to the studio and thank someone, aim it directly toward Ron Smith.

This will be one of the truly important classic releases of 2010, and should be in every serious library.  Only a single decision remains. Does one purchase one of the Blu-ray editions that will emerge on March 23, or wait for the (still in process) 3-D version due in November, rumored to be inclusive of small vials of live leeches which can be used, a la Rocky Horror Show, while in a proper viewing environment.

I'd probably buy it now.

High Recommended.

RAH

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #2 of 151
As usual, you clear up a lot questions, thoughts and comments that have been made the past couple of months.  It is very appreciative and I will enjoy the film more this time around with the background you have provided and knowing the work that was involved to getting it to me.
post #3 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris View Post

This will be one of the truly important classic releases of 2010, and should be in every serious library.  Only a single decision remains. Does one purchase one of the Blu-ray editions that will emerge on March 23, or wait for the (still in process) 3-D version due in November, rumored to be inclusive of small vials of live leeches which can be used, a la Rocky Horror Show, while in a proper viewing environment.
 
Oh, wow!  Leaches in 3D, how could I pass that up!

I've always loved this movie.  Even on SD broadcast TV, it shines.  This movie has one of the most unlikely romances in movie history.

I don't know what extras are on the disc, but this movie cries out for a commentary by a film historian and a top-notch "making of doc."  Look to the Universal (still only SD) releases of the classic monster films.  Excellent commentaries that are chock full of information and very good "making of" docs.

I know, I know, I should be satisfied with the film.  It's just that this film would have so much to documented.
post #4 of 151
Very good to hear Mr. Harris, I've been anxiously awaiting your thoughts on this title. After waiting over a decade for The African Queen on DVD I'm pleased that I can now skip the DVD entirely and go right to a hi def Blu. While I know not to put too much into the screenshots over at DVDBeaver after the Contact debacle I was nevertheless concerned that a few shots looked overly greenish. My fears have been for naught apparently, and I can look forward to finally seeing this long-time personal favorite as never before.
post #5 of 151
I've seen the "yellow titles" and it looked to me as if they were created for a cropped re-release.
post #6 of 151
a 3d version of "the african queen"

anyway... i haven't seen this film in years... i think last time i saw it was 15 - 20 years ago on tv. looking forward to a great presentation of true classic
post #7 of 151
This single-disc Blu-ray and DVD has an hour-long documentary, and the more expensive box throws in some promotional materials, but there will be no commentary.

The Jack Cardiff (cinematographer) commentary is still available on the DVD from region 2, which also includes the trailer. I have just ordered this from Amazon UK and will report on how it looks. It will make a good companion piece to the Blu, although this PAL edition will not be a fully restored one.
post #8 of 151
I have never seen the film! Maybe bits and pieces over the years, but what a treat to view it for the first time in this new edition!
post #9 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Scott Richard View Post

I have never seen the film! Maybe bits and pieces over the years, but what a treat to view it for the first time in this new edition!

I envy you then -- other than new releases i can only think of the first time I saw Notorious that had the same affect on me.  There are a few films which I revel in and this is one of them.   My gorgeous Laserdisc Boxset now will have some company with the new BluRay, but the LD set will be mine for life and I may take it with me if I can figure out how.
post #10 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Norman View Post




I envy you then -- other than new releases i can only think of the first time I saw Notorious that had the same affect on me.  There are a few films which I revel in and this is one of them.   My gorgeous Laserdisc Boxset now will have some company with the new BluRay, but the LD set will be mine for life and I may take it with me if I can figure out how.
 

I have the same feelings for my laserdisc copy.  It will never lose that loving feeling.
post #11 of 151
 I have to admit I have not seen The African Queen either. I had seen bits of it as a young teen during the 3:30pm afternoon movie after school, but I never saw it in it's entirety. 

This sounds like a really nice release! Now to decide to get the deluxe box with the reproduction of Hepburn's book or regular BD.

By the way, The first time I saw Notorious was on the Criterion laserdisc way back in the day! I was rediscovering Hitchcock in the late 80's early 90's.
post #12 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris View Post

I've seen some comments on line regarding the Blu-ray not having uncompressed audio, and I'll throw my nickel's worth in on that situation.  A digital track reproduces audio perfectly as what it is.  If produced well, uncompressed audio makes everything cleaner, sharper and better.

But take an old track, that may not have been recorded under the best of conditions, especially in analogue, and the final playback can be heavily affected by the actual playback mechanism.  I'll give you an example.  When 70mm prints were struck on "Vertigo," all except for one, were produced in the new DTS 70 system, with DTS timecode printed along the edge of the film.  The DTS system will produce whatever you feed it, and precisely.  When we compared the DTS prints against the single magnetic print, it became very evident that the quality of the original tracks did less well in playback via the digital system than through magnetic analogue.  The DTS system actually reproduced the old tracks too well.  What we had lost was a smoothing that one gets in the analogue world.  With neither compression nor analogue, the tracks were just a bit too revealing of problems.

That said, might an uncompressed digital track of a sixty year old film sound worse than a compressed track.  Very possibly.  Is there anything to be gained by going uncompressed in this particular situation?  Possible, but doubtful.

I'm not sure I understand Mr. Harris' explanation above about the lack of uncompressed audio. 

If a film is transferred properly, Blu-ray provides a better vehicle for home viewing than DVD because of the higher video resolution.  If the audio track is transferred properly, uncompressed audio provides a better vehicle for home listening than an uncompressed track. 

Or would it also be better to view The African Queen on DVD rather than Blu-ray because of the inconsistencies in the filming process (and the problems with the film elements)?  Maybe the lesser video resolution would provide a "smoothing" of the video presentation that would be more pleasing to the eye? 

By RAH's reasoning, the Blu-ray of The African Queen may too accurately reveal the limitations of the original elements.
post #13 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Frezon View Post




I'm not sure I understand Mr. Harris' explanation above about the lack of uncompressed audio. 

If a film is transferred properly, Blu-ray provides a better vehicle for home viewing than DVD because of the higher video resolution.  If the audio track is transferred properly, uncompressed audio provides a better vehicle for home listening than an uncompressed track. 

Or would it also be better to view The African Queen on DVD rather than Blu-ray because of the inconsistencies in the filming process (and the problems with the film elements)?  Maybe the lesser video resolution would provide a "smoothing" of the video presentation that would be more pleasing to the eye? 

By RAH's reasoning, the Blu-ray of The African Queen may too accurately reveal the limitations of the original elements.
 
I agree with you, Mike.  I have great admiration for Mr. Harris' knowledge and expertise, but I'm a little confused by the audio remarks here and elsewhere on the Web.  There's a lot of speculation about why Paramount used a low bitrate DD track - maybe the original track sounds bad, maybe the mix was poorly done, etc..  The only way to know the answer is if Paramount told us that, due to the poor condition of the original track, DD sounded better to their engineers.  However, the best thing would have been to put both tracks on the disc and let each viewer decide which track is preferred.

Doug
post #14 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Frezon View Post
By RAH's reasoning, the Blu-ray of The African Queen may too accurately reveal the limitations of the original elements.
 
I think that is what he's saying, but I think he was addressing what is often a knee-jerk reaction: "what, no uncompressed audio!"  I think he's saying in this case, don't sweat it.  Heck, even standard DVD's can reveal what the theatrical audience didn't experience in the theater in older films.

I'm thinking of the original War of the Worlds in which you can see the wires holding up the martian machines on the DVD.  Does it mean I want to go back to VHS tape?  Nope.

Absolute fidelity to something created 60 years ago, fidelity that may surpass what theatrical audiences had available to them, may not always be a good idea.
post #15 of 151
Thread Starter 
You're right on track here.  Our plain vanilla DVD audio that's been with us for a decade can do a better job of reproducing audio than theatres in the '50s.  Keeping in mind that much of the projection hardware in the early '50s was then decades old, with amplification and speaker systems that weren't especially transparent of the optical tracks being played.

Are we seeing more, both good and bad, in a Blu-ray of a sixty year-old production.  Certainly.  And in many cases, digital manipulations should be made before a project is considered complete.  The resolution of dye transfer prints of The African Queen had less in terms of actual resolution than you're going to see on your home screen with original elements scanned at 4k.  Precisely the same situation with the audio.

It's important for the viewer to both understand what they're seeing and hearing, and to be reasonably forgiving for those things that might have been a bit less transparent sixty years ago.  That said, I'll note once again, that overall Paramount's new Blu-ray of The African Queen is stunning.

RAH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Angell View Post



I think that is what he's saying, but I think he was addressing what is often a knee-jerk reaction: "what, no uncompressed audio!"  I think he's saying in this case, don't sweat it.  Heck, even standard DVD's can reveal what the theatrical audience didn't experience in the theater in older films.

I'm thinking of the original War of the Worlds in which you can see the wires holding up the martian machines on the DVD.  Does it mean I want to go back to VHS tape?  Nope.

Absolute fidelity to something created 60 years ago, fidelity that may surpass what theatrical audiences had available to them, may not always be a good idea.


 
post #16 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris View Post

Are we seeing more, both good and bad, in a Blu-ray of a sixty year-old production.  Certainly.  And in many cases, digital manipulations should be made before a project is considered complete.  The resolution of dye transfer prints of The African Queen had less in terms of actual resolution than you're going to see on your home screen with original elements scanned at 4k.  Precisely the same situation with the audio.


Then why should we be okay with lossy sound for The African Queen but want to see the film on the higher resolution video format? 

I am unclear why you draw the distinction between the audio and video sides of the presentation? 
post #17 of 151
Thread Starter 
Mike,

Although I have had no discussions with anyone at Paramount in regard to the audio, I know the people there and trust their judgement. More importantly, there is a conceptual difference between the audio situation and image.   I have no problem with the audio as is, and it sounds much like a 35mm print on quality equipment.  The video may have been "massaged" just a bit to make it look proper.  We were never meant to see what a film looked like directly off of Tech OCNs.  This is all to the good.  Compare the image of Wizard of Oz to that of Gone with the Wind, and you'll readily note the differences and what was learned in house between those jobs.  One does the best that they can, and one learns along with way.  From what I'm seeing on AQ, what was learned between those two has been put to very good use here.  This is a beautiful release.
 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Frezon View Post




Then why should we be okay with lossy sound for The African Queen but want to see the film on the higher resolution video format? 

I am unclear why you draw the distinction between the audio and video sides of the presentation? 
 
post #18 of 151
Robert:

Thank you for your continued responses.

I appreciate your critique that TAQ is a quality release and that the audio is fine.  I am looking forward to it very much. 

Do you see the logic of my argument above, however, that if a higher resolution video presentation gives a greater chance for a more accurate home theater presentation...that the same would be true for a higher quality audio format? 

Or, do I have that wrong?
post #19 of 151
Mike,
I think the fault in your logic is that you are assuming image quality and sound quality from the 1950s are on equal footing. Truth is, the original elements of celluloid from the 1950s were high resolution and high-definition video strives to recover that resolution. But optical sound recordings from the 1950s were by no means high-fidelity and reproducing them in a lossless audio format is of no benefit as a compressed format is all that is needed to faithfully reproduce the original sound elements - it's just a waste of real estate on the disc.
post #20 of 151
Well, Mark...I've got to figure that there's probably plenty of room on that Blu-ray disc for the uncompressed audio format.

So, let's try to deal with a 'perfect world' hypothetical--that there is room for the best audio & video tracks on the disc.  Even if the original sound elements are "less than perfect"...  Even if they are "poor"...  Wouldn't it make sense that the uncompressed audio would bring that "less than perfect" or "poor" soundtrack to the home viewer in the best possible way?

You see, I figure if there's a film with a middling video transfer and a middling audio transfer...people understand that the Blu-ray disc of that film is going to still be a better home video presentation of that film than a parallel DVD release.  And why I figure the very same would be true for the audio track of that film (if uncompressed audio is used), it seems like many people think it doesn't matter to pass-through that soundtrack in the best format possible. 
post #21 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark-P View Post

But optical sound recordings from the 1950s were by no means high-fidelity and reproducing them in a lossless audio format is of no benefit as a compressed format is all that is needed to faithfully reproduce the original sound elements - it's just a waste of real estate on the disc.


Quote:
Even if they are "poor"...  Wouldn't it make sense that the uncompressed audio would bring that "less than perfect" or "poor" soundtrack to the home viewer in the best possible way?

If Mark's statement that "a lossless audio format is of no benefit as a compressed format is all that is needed to faithfully reproduce the original sound elements" is true, then no big deal.  I've read references that scanning at  4K exceeds film resolution, I think.  If the medium and economics permitted scanning at some rate that exceeded the film resolution, would you call for it, just because they can do it?  It seems to me you may be asking them to do that for the audio.

I'll wait for the  reviews (wait, this one, isn't it) before I start crying in my beer over no lossless audio.  I've watched this movie on a 19" b&w TV and that weren't no lossless audio I was listening to.  I suspect the blu ray will do quite nicely.

There's always this hue and cry on the forum to duplicate as much as possible the theatrical experience.  I interpret Mr. Harris's comments to indicate a lossless track would be further from the theatrical experience than the compressed track.  At least that's my take on what he meant.
post #22 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Angell View Post

There's always this hue and cry on the forum to duplicate as much as possible the theatrical experience.  I interpret Mr. Harris's comments to indicate a lossless track would be further from the theatrical experience than the compressed track.  At least that's my take on what he meant.

And, Johnny,  that's the point I don't understand and am trying to wrap my head around. 

If the use of lossless audio only serves to present the original film audio as purely as possible, how can it take us further away from the theatrical experience? 

If the audio is only so good to begin with, I can see where maybe a compressed format on the Blu-ray will replicate it adequately.  But I don't see how a lossless format would ever hurt or make things worse.  I've never heard anyone say that would be true on the video side (keeping in mind we are NOT talking about DNR or any of the other things that can wrongly be used during the transfer process)--just the best resolution possible in reproducing the existing elements.
post #23 of 151
Thread Starter 
Whatever optical tracks have survived -- and these may have been converted to mag decades ago -- would now have been dealt with in the digital domain.  Whatever problems exist(ed) on those tracks will be far more front and center if played back uncompressed, than with a bit of compression to smooth things out and to help hide problems.  Let's return to the 70mm prints of "Vertigo" for a moment.  As I mentioned earlier, the analogue mag print sounded far more pleasant than the DTS print.  Not because of any deficiencies in the DTS system, but rather because via DTS, the audio was presented too perfectly, and for an old track, in too unforgiving a manner.

I'm not saying that this is why the track is compressed on AQ, but I would certainly consider this move if it were my project.  On my system I feel that the track faithfully reproduces what I recall of the film.  As an aside, the original optical format for AQ was variable density, which if well printed and reproduced, can be wonderful. 

As I've said, I trust the people who created this, and I would give them their due, before questioning their technical motives.

RAH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Frezon View Post

And, Johnny,  that's the point I don't understand and am trying to wrap my head around. 

If the use of lossless audio only serves to present the original film audio as purely as possible, how can it take us further away from the theatrical experience? 

If the audio is only so good to begin with, I can see where maybe a compressed format on the Blu-ray will replicate it adequately.  But I don't see how a lossless format would ever hurt or make things worse.  I've never heard anyone say that would be true on the video side (keeping in mind we are NOT talking about DNR or any of the other things that can wrongly be used during the transfer process)--just the best resolution possible in reproducing the existing elements.
 
post #24 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Frezon View Post

If the use of lossless audio only serves to present the original film audio as purely as possible, how can it take us further away from the theatrical experience? 

If the audio is only so good to begin with, I can see where maybe a compressed format on the Blu-ray will replicate it adequately.  But I don't see how a lossless format would ever hurt or make things worse
As I wrote earlier "Absolute fidelity to something created 60 years ago, fidelity that may surpass what theatrical audiences had available to them, may not always be a good idea."

You are browsing the web with a pc more powerful than the one that took the astronauts to the moon.  The sound system in your  car is better than what most people had in  there homes only a few years ago.  So has the capability home theater systems increased to replicate, not the theatrical experience, but to replicate with high fidelity what is on  that  blu-ray disc.

Your home theater system can more nearly duplicate how a 60 year-old movie was recorded both audio and video.  Better than what audiences saw and heard in the theaters.  Better than the artists  who created the movie intended.  Sitting there in the studio, I  can imagine them listening  to the  sound track and thinking, "thank goodness the audience won't get to hear everything we just heard."

I don't know for a fact that I'm  right, but this seems reasonable.

Do you really want Playboy to stop using all those gauzy filters for the centerfold?
post #25 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris View Post

As I've said, I trust the people who created this, and I would give them their due, before questioning their technical motives.


Mr. Harris:  I do NOT presume to question the motives of anyone connected with this release.  I don't know enough about the subject to feel I would have the right to do that.  I am asking these questions because of a lack of understanding on my part about the process and the hope to be enlightened. 

Let's use your scenario of the audio issues with the Vertigo restoration as an example.  You say the problems with the Vertigo audio were exacerbated by the digital realm.  It was too "perfect" a representation of what existed and did too good a job exposing it's flaws. 

This is where my own sense of logic (which has many times been called into question ) doesn't follow.  If the digital representation of the Vertigo audio was "too accurate" for the release because it emphasized the audio's problems, why would a compressed version serve it any better? 

You speak of a "smoothing" and of "hiding" the problems.  One could argue you might achieve the same thing with smaller speakers or a less-powerful amplifier...or simply turning the volume down. 

I have yet to hear of a home video release that anyone has characterized as "being better on DVD than Blu-ray" because the picture quality of the video elements aren't really all that good.

If there was a classic film that couldn't undergo major restorative work (for whatever reason) but was going to be released to the home audience next month, would we think it would be best to release it on DVD only because the higher resolution of Blu-ray will only serve to emphasize the film's blemishes?  If the answer to that is "yes," then I think I can understand your point.  But if it would be said that the Blu-ray release would still be preferred to give us the best look at this hypothetical classic whose original elements are beyond repair, I would think the same would hold true for the audio to The African Queen...or any other film for that matter. 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Angell View Post

As I wrote earlier "Absolute fidelity to something created 60 years ago, fidelity that may surpass what theatrical audiences had available to them, may not always be a good idea."

You are browsing the web with a pc more powerful than the one that took the astronauts to the moon.  The sound system in your  car is better than what most people had in  there homes only a few years ago.  So has the capability home theater systems increased to replicate, not the theatrical experience, but to replicate with high fidelity what is on  that  blu-ray disc.

Your home theater system can more nearly duplicate how a 60 year-old movie was recorded both audio and video.  Better than what audiences saw and heard in the theaters.  Better than the artists  who created the movie intended.  Sitting there in the studio, I  can imagine them listening  to the  sound track and thinking, "thank goodness the audience won't get to hear everything we just heard."

I don't know for a fact that I'm  right, but this seems reasonable.

Point #1, Johnny.  You've never seen/heard my minivan's stereo system!    It ain't so great...

Point #2:  I definitely understand your point about the improvements in audio now from when early films were made.  But those improved delivery systems don't have to mean we should "dumb down" the technological improvements we currently have available to us in order to experience the film.  First, I would think any inconsistencies in the audio could be improved my modern digital processing if things were that bad.  Secondly, I keep getting hung up on the fact that even if the audio elements aren't perfect, presenting them compressed isn't going to make things better than reproducing them as accurately as possible.  

Let me try this scenario to explain my confusion on this.  I know how sensitive HTFers are to excessive DNR in the video presentation of films for the home.  I could almost imagine the disc producers using that same kind of argument as they pump the DNR level--that they might think a particular film on which they were working had a certain look to it that they, as disc producer, could improve through compression or the use of some other altering device. That this would be a good thing--when DNR is generally considered an unnecessary and, in fact, damaging technique.  I would think the unnecessary (and especially intentional) compression of audio would be considered a similarly flawed idea. 


Quote:
 
Do you really want Playboy to stop using all those gauzy filters for the centerfold?

Faulty analogy, Johnny.  I'm not talking about changing the artist's conception...but just in how that work is received in the home.  Certainly I would want my Playboy magazine to continue to be professionally printed in the best manner possible.  I certainly wouldn't want the publishers to decide to use lower resolution photos to try and hide the fact that the originals may not be up to snuff. 

And, I most certainly wouldn't want them to put the staples back into the centerfolds after the better printing technique was incorporated many years ago.    That would be a major technological step backward. 
post #26 of 151
^ I agree with you there. It's almost as though some are being "apologists" by saying hi-res audio isn't or can't be "prepared" before encoding. And only low-res audio can or is, so that's what we must have for poor sources. I think we *expect* (even demand??) some clean-up or whatever before a hi-def source is sent to BD, both audio and video.

It should have been lossless audio. The fact it isn't wouldn't stop me from buying, but I'll never say they made the best decision. I wonder what people will say when the next version/format has lossless audio? Call it inferior?   If by some chance they couldn't fit lossless audio without degrading the video onto a single BD, and without hurting marketing efforts by keeping it to a single BD, then I can understand that much better.
post #27 of 151
I think Mark has put it very well. There is absolutely no value in having a lossless audio track when the fidelity of the original recording is so limited. A lossy track will deliver everything that a lossless track could from a subjective point of view.

And as pointed out, having less disc space taken up with uncompressed audio might mean that you can get better bitrates for the video - and that's always a good thing, because video at HD resolutions can benefit from as much bandwidth as it can get.

I am a bit of a hifi freak from way back, and I am always a bit puzzled when people jump up and down for lossless audion on every new HD release. We've put up with lossy audio on redbook CDs for close to 30 years, and that's proven to be pretty adequate for even the most state-of-the-art sound recording sessions to this day. While formats like SACD and DVD-Audio are obviously better, they are virtually defunct in the mainstream. But if you are talking about old recordings from the 50s and earlier, before the stereo era, then high resolution audio is overkill - CD quality audio would allow you to hear more than enough of the limitations of old tape, shallac, vinyl or whatever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark-P View Post

Mike,
I think the fault in your logic is that you are assuming image quality and sound quality from the 1950s are on equal footing. Truth is, the original elements of celluloid from the 1950s were high resolution and high-definition video strives to recover that resolution. But optical sound recordings from the 1950s were by no means high-fidelity and reproducing them in a lossless audio format is of no benefit as a compressed format is all that is needed to faithfully reproduce the original sound elements - it's just a waste of real estate on the disc.
post #28 of 151
I don't follow the "the guys who made the blu-ray did it that way so it must be right" way of thinking.
If lossless would reveal flaws in the sound was there no way to clean up the audio first?

Wasn't there a couple people who said the Wizard of Oz shouldn't be on blu -ray because now you can see the wires and other things that couldn't be seen when it was originally shown on a movie screen in 1939.
post #29 of 151
I always find the lossless audio sounds smoother, even for lousy sources, and thus "better" to me. We're not necessarily talking about revealing MORE of anything with lossless, just presenting what IS as well as possible. A hi-res movie INCLUDES hi-res audio, this should be the mantra. Let's not be dragged down by the mediocrity-hugging masses, we would buy the DVD if that's what we wanted. And I mean "mediocrity" in its strictest dictionary definition. I like my DVDs too.
post #30 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Frezon View Post

Faulty analogy, Johnny.  I'm not talking about changing the artist's conception...but just in how that work is received in the home.  Certainly I would want my Playboy magazine to continue to be professionally printed in the best manner possible.
 
I think my analogy applies.  the Playboy photographer takes a picture through a gauze filter, intentionally producing what could be considered a a low fidelity photograph.  A photograph that has less detail so that the model looks better.  The sound recordists on the movie  expected the "gauze" of reproducing the sound all the way down to the theater to reduce the actual fidelity of the recording.

You want to hear what the recordists actually recorded, what they could hear with their state-of-the-art equipment, not what they wanted you to hear.  You can argue they could have reduced the fidelity of a lossless track, than what is the point of lossless?  Perhaps it was cheaper to go compressed to get what the original recordists wanted?

There's the possibility that if the original makers of the movie could speak, they might say I'm full of crap.  That they've  love for us to hear more.  We can never know that.  Hell, it's even hard to know for sure what the exact theatrical experience was for TAQ's first run.

Maybe there was space for a lossy and lossless track.  Maybe there were financial reasons.  Maybe the guy who made the decision had a headache that day.  Van Ling went through a whole bunch of reasons in another thread why a blu (T2 I think) couldn't have this or that on it, why things were done the way they were.  None of the decisions were made on artistic merit but on the $$.

It's a 60 year-old movie, I'm not going to sweat the lossless track.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home

Gear mentioned in this thread:

Home Theater Forum › Home Theater Forum › Blu-ray, DVD, Streaming Video and Digital Downloads › Blu-ray › A Few Words About By Robert Harris › A few words about...™ The African Queen -- in Blu-ray