LOTR BluRay Extended Cut? - Page 2

Yes, there are lots of diehard fans who are extremely vocal about their preference for the EE's.  But the fact is that in the overall population, the theatrical editions vastly outsold the extended editions on DVD.  Some people won't buy the theatricals, and that's fine.  But it's utter bullshit to say that New Line is acting "shameful" when their intentions have been clear from the beginning.  Have some patience, you'll get your extended editions. 

Really, the sense of entitlement on this board amazes me at times.

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Then either your "majority" of fans must be a pretty small cross-sampling, or they're lying to you, seeing as how the very same Amazon page you link to states that the title is #1 in Movies & TV > Action & Adventure > Series & Sequels > Lord of the Rings.

Where do you see me talking about the EE being "watered down"?



Michigan? What are you talking about? The numbers I posted aren't from surveys, and they're neither limited to one state, nor are they studio claims.  They're nationwide point-of-sale and online sales data from a 3rd party (Nielsen Videoscan) direct from the retailers, not the studios.  So, yes, it's Actual Sales Data.


Actually, quite the opposite.  Online reviews are completely worthless, since they have no relation to sales (or lack thereof), even on Amazon.  Probably especially on Amazon.  After all, there might be a ton of 1-star reviews from these "fans," but if you'd bothered to scroll down a tiny bit you would see not only the aforementioned #1sales rating for all LOTR video releases, but also that the title is #1 in Movies & TV > Boxed Sets > Sci-Fi & Fantasy and #1 in Movies & TV > Boxed Sets > Action & Adventure, #3 in Movies & TV > Action & Adventure > Series & Sequels, and #60 overall in DVD and Blu-ray sales combined (spectacular for an expensive SKU up against a tidal wave of day-and-date titles like the Twilightseries and all the Oscar winners), and that's just in pre-orders.

Face it, your accusations are just not supported by any existing evidence, and are in fact refuted by it.


So, first it's shameful that they didn't tell them (even though that it was false), and now it's shameful that they did? Make up your mind, man.  Really, the best thing I can say about that is that at least you're admitting that your repeated and unverified claims that they never announced the EEs after the TEs for either DVDs or Blu-ray were false.


Apart from the fact that the release is going for under $65 at online retailers, and will likely fall to under $60 soon after, there's nothing to support this theory.  You can post all the comments and reviews from Amazon you'd like, but that means nothing next to the fact that even with just pre-orders, the title is to #1 in the very same "fan" categories you keep on claiming are so offended.

I'll buy the theatrical versions on Blu-Ray.  When the EE arrive, I won't buy those.

I'm a fan of the series.

Jesse, since the Blu-ray hasn't been released yet, how they they claim actual sales data on something that hasn't been released yet. Amazon ranking? It's a common fact that Amazon cross-links it's same title items with each other. Just look at reviews from any DVD or Blu ray titles. Amazon routinely cross-links its same title listings.

You said:


Well, this is a misleading statement. How in the world can Nielsen Videoscan get point of sale or online sales data from an item that has not been released. Do you realize how many consumers cancel their orders prior to the release date when they discover this isn't the Extended Edition?

Your comment might be accurate if a copy of the LotR trilogy had already been released on Blu-ray but this isn't the case, by any shot. It's not even a re-release of the Blu-ray version.

Amazon, Best Buy has the release at $65, which is probably going to be the average. $70 at Target. Expect it to be closer to $100 when the EE version is released. Consumers aren't going to double dip on an expensive Blu-ray release of this title.

Additionally, Amazon's ranking are skewered. They count Blu-rays sales as DVD sales and include previous DVD sales combined with the Blu-ray sales. What does this mean? Amazon is combining the DVD sales with the Blu-ray sales which is making that ranking number for the Blu-ray release.

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I'm not talking about the Blu-ray. If you'd actually bothered to read the link I provided, you would instantly have seen that I'm talking about the DVDs, which would (a) follow the same trend, and (b) are independently verified from multiple sources.  That data proves your points about a "majority" being upset or boycotting the TEs to be false. If you recall, you claimed that because of the EE "hosing"--which now you have admitted was misinformation on your part, for both the DVD and Blu-ray releases--that the release wouldn't make a profit because people knew that it wasn't the EE or that they'd wait for it.  The DVD release not only proves that assumption wrong, on both counts, but that the TEs were selling as well or better than the EEs even right after the EEs went on sale.  Of course, you've since changed your argument to something completely different precisely because both your claims and your assumptions were proven wrong.

It's not common fact.  It's not a fact at all.  According to Amazon's FAQ, rankings not only reflect "sales for that particular item" (emphasis mine), but that they categorize similar items such as the DVD and Blu-ray versions.  In other words, the rankings are for that item and that item only.  Again, if you'd spent 15 seconds checking out any of the other listings, you'd see they don't have the same rankings (FWIW, the other 4 trilogy releases are #2, #9, #11, and #16 in the category Movies & TV > Action & Adventure > Series & Sequels > Lord of the Rings).

Ironically enough, the only thing affected by cross-linking is...the reviews!

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See above regarding DVD sales.  And if consumers were canceling their orders, it would show up in the rankings, which are dynamic and updated every hour.  In fact, the ranking has gone up from #60 to #54 in overall sales just since my last post! This supposed order canceling is either just not happening, or is offset by a much larger number of new orders.
Amazon, Best Buy, and Wal-Mart, the three largest retailers of Blu-ray, all have it going for less than $65, actually.  But that's neither here nor there.  After all, if the EE is going to be $100 when it comes out, that of course refutes your "price is the problem" argument that you just flip-flopped to from the "everyone was hoodwinked" argument.

WRONG.  See above re: ranking according to Amazon themselves.

Jaref, at some point you're going to have to realize that on this topic you're just plain wrong on everything but your personal preference as to which version is better to you.  Not only that, you're posting information that is easily debunked with a single search query.  Continuing to characterize your assumptions as fact or making claims about retailers, news sources, or studios that their own FAQs or archives put to lie is ridiculous.  At the least it's repeating ignorance and unresearched opinion, and at worst actively trolling or deliberatly trying to misinform people.
Edited by Jesse Blacklow - 3/19/10 at 12:45pm

Jaref, at this point, it's hard not to assume you are deliberately being obtuse.  

But, just to give you the benefit of the doubt, those sales numbers aren't from the Blu-ray release.  They're from the DVD release, and they show that the Theatrical Version DVDs outsold the Extended Edition DVDs in week-to-week sales, even when the extended editions were new and the theatrical versions had been out for months, thus dispelling the myth that nobody is interested in purchasing the theatrical versions.

I am glad that Lord Of The Rings is coming out on Blu-ray, but what the heck.  I currently own the TE and EE on dvd and I do not even watch the TE anymore.  First off I like the EE over the TE hands down, the added scences not only add to the movie but help scences make better sence.  And besides the TE only has the dolby digital track which I hate so it sits collecting dust and I guess the only reason I have it is for collecting.  But back to the blu-ray release of LOTR release.  For those of us who prefer the EE, why would we spend good money on the TE all over again and then buy it a second time on Blu-ray and maybe even the 4th time on video?  I am sure that the TE is going to look great, most likely reference quality.  But I will not buy the TE of Lord Of The Rings as I feel money could go towards other HD titles or upgrading a/v equipment.  I am sure that the TE cuts will sell just fine and that many people will be very happy with them.  But IMHO this is just business as usuall with studios double dipping titles to there customers.  Oh I can not wait to see Lord Of The Rings in 1080p with lossless audio! 

He used to do the same thing in the TV on DVD section and before the Jaref name, he used to do it under another name over there too.

The TE Blus are available for $49.99CAD at Amazon.ca.

If you don't want the TEs, don't buy them. You know the EEs are coming, wait for those. If Jackson wants to make them the ultimate versions, then the wait will be worth it.

There's no reason to be insulting. I'm not being obtuse. I'm just stating what everyone else is likely thinking.

First, I was one of the consumers who purchased the theatrical releases of the movies when they were first released to DVD. Dubly so, I was also upset when it was discovered that the Extended Editions would be later released to DVD. So, I purchased those, as well. Now, with Blu-ray, one would think that New Line would have learned from their past mistakes and just release the Extended Editions to Blu-ray.

I just don't see the reason why New Line wants to soak fans on two different releases of these movies.

Secondly, I never said that anyone quoted the TE versions as being watered down. When you compare the two, of course the TE is a watered down version because it doesn't contain the additional footage, which adds a deeper understanding to each movie. Compared to the EE version, the TE edition really is watered down. 

It's what YOU are thinking. I'm not sure that everyone else is.

Clearly Warner is releasing the Theatrical versions of the movies, BECAUSE THEY SOLD BETTER ON DVD THAN THE EE VERSIONS DID! The fact that the EE versions sold well also means that there is a market for BOTH. Warner is in the movie business to make money. If they can maximize profits by releasing products that the audience clearly wants, why shouldn't they? Why is that so hard to understand? I guarantee that if they had released only the EE versions, you'd have an uproar from fans who prefer the theatricals. Ultimately they are going to release both, so keep your panties on, they will get to you.

In fact I wouldn't say that the TE of the films are watered down, (and Jackson seems to agree with that) though I do prefer the EE of Fellowship. However the other two movies I would say are bloated and over long. In some cases the added footage upsets the pacing of the films. Other times the added scenes telegraph things that are going to happen later in the film, making them redundant, and ruining the suspense. In my humble opinion.

Doug

 
The Hobbit will be coming to theaters, and that will probably be the timeframe of the extended releases on BD.
It makes sense  to maximize sales from the studios standpoint.  I'm not condoning it, but making the most money will always outweigh pleasing the fans.

The Hobbit is on indefinite hold while they try and find a buyer for MGM.

Doug

I don't want to think that a fellow HTF member could be this dense, so I'm going to assume that you're either grasping at straws because you realized long ago that you lost this argument, or you're just plain trolling.

You must have talked to quite a few people if you think this is evidence that the TEs of LOTR wont sell. Its funny how you dismiss sales data whilst you proclaim your discussions with online people as evidence. I would hazard a guess that the sales data included a lot more people than you chatted to, but hey even if they didn't your claims make no sense given the millions of copies of the TE that were previously sold on DVD.

I plan on buying both. As someone has stated the TEs are the versions that were financial and criticial succcesses, one of which won Best Picture at the Oscars and deserve to be seen. Hardly "watered down." And I have been fully warned by Warner and Peter Jackson that an EE box is on the way. My personal preference would have been to put both versions in a box set - who knows this may happen with the EE.

I prefer the EEs generally but even those have flaws with what is added and is proof that adding footage doesn't always improve a film. A lot of it is good stuff but not all.

Just to play devil's advocate, couldn't it be argued that the theatrical editions sold better because they were also sold in large quantities to the rental market, while the extended editions were not?

And regarding THE HOBBIT, word has been spreading that it's on track to start filming in June of this year.

Vincent

I don't believe that sales to rentals outlets are reported to Nielsen Videoscan as a retail sale.

The Hobbit is an MGM property and nothing its likely to be done with it as long as the rights are tied up with that studio. Now if the studio is sold for its parts fairly soon, they might be able to make that shooting date, assuming the studio that buys the rights wants to go ahead with the project as it stands,  but I wouldn't hold my breath. The next Bond film is also on hold for the the time being.

Doug

You don't believe they are or you know for sure that they are not?

Vincent

THE HOBBIT is on target to start filming in June.  The bids for MGM were due yesterday and it appears that there were no winning bids for everything.  It is understood that Warner's will make an offer for the MGM's ownership of THE HOBBIT and it should be accepted.  Off the subject, but it looks as if Fox will go after the Bond rights and get in a fierce battle for them with Sony.

I don't know that for sure, but I do know that sales to video rental outlets don't go through the normal channels that you and I would go through to buy a DVD. For instance some of the studios were threatening to not sell DVDs to Red Box for the first 3 weeks, which would mean they would have to go out and buy the films at retail price if they wanted to have the films in their machines on release day. So it would make sense that Videoscan would not record non-retail sales.

Also some retailers aren't reported to videoscan such as Walmart and Amazon. Not sure why however.

Doug

That maybe true, if The Hobbit is an independant production and MGM is a distributor only. If they have funding from a source other than MGM they might be able to go ahead. However even then the film would be in limbo until the MGM sale is complete, assuming that the sale itself doesn't end up with legal issues. All I'm saying is that with this kind of thing its hard to say what will happen. Until a sale is on paper, we can't say for sure, and even then someone could sue to stop the sale.

I would be interesting to watch Fox and Sony battle it out for Bond. It would also be nice to see Bond have a stable corporate home for the first time in about 20 years.

Doug

Not only has Sir Ian McKellen confirmed that shooting on The Hobbit starts this summer, the film needs to start shooting soon due to rights reverting back to the Tolkien estates if it does not.  Warner's also has a stake in the film financially (MGM needed the cash to get this off the ground) and I understand that they are fronting some money to get this going in hopes of swooping down and grabbing all rights if their overall bid is rejected.  They also need to keep the talent together or they will take other jobs.  Also after Warner's announcement at Showest this past week, if they do end up owning and distributing the films, expect them to be released in 3D. 

The debt holders, if they reject all the bids, will quickly sell off the best assets.  They want their money, what ever amount that will be.  Also both Sony and Comcast have already written off their investment and are out of the picture, except for Sony sniffing around Bond.  Personally, I would rather see Fox with Bond and not Sony.

You are correct in anything can happen and the above is speculation from inside MGM and Warner's.

McKellan may have said there's a June start date, but New Line is still saying there isn't one yet:

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118016611.html?categoryid=13&cs=1&query=hobbit

It's not just New Line double dipping or tripple dipping a title.  I think most studios are guilty of it and there goal is to generate as much cash of any title they can.  I do not like how they will offer and basic set of extras and 5.1 track, then they turn around add more extras and a better sound track and repackage it all over again.  But then we as consumers need to accept blame on this as well because we keep buying the titles over and over again.  This is why there are certain titles I will not buy until the include what I want!  I will not buy Blu-ray disc that have the old weak Dolby Digital soundtrack on it!  Heck I could get the same weak soundtrack on DVD, why would I want it on Bluray?  The point is that studios should use lossless tracks, (Dolby True HD, DTS-HD MA or Uncompressed PCM).  I allready own both versions of LOTR on DVD and I have no problem waiting for the EE of LOTR!  New Line will want to make money off EE cuts so you know they release it, it's just a matter of time.

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Almost no one here is agreeing with you, and you've been shown ample evidence that a majority of people outside this forum don't agree with you either.  Earlier in this thread, your complaints about being "tricked" by the release of the EEs, your belief that sales of the TE would be poor if the EE were known to be coming, and that the TEs were never good sellers could be seen as just lack of information.  But so much evidence from the studios, consumers, and news sites has been provided (some of which you have actually agreed with at one point) that it's now 100% certain that you are lying, trolling, or both.  

When you've just claimed that there was no evidence of  the EEs coming for TTT and ROTK after the release of the FOTR EE, "obtuse" doesn't even begin to describe your actions.  It's time for you to move on.
Edited by Jesse Blacklow - 3/22/10 at 6:38am

They aren't, even though they could. I want the theatrical versions - they are the ones I am most likely to watch. I also want the extended versions. Since the extended versions won't be out until Jackson has time to work on them, there is no point holding back the theatrical versions.

I can think of one reason to hold back: if holding back meant that the "EEs" would have seamless branching and offer both versions, like the last DVD edition of the movies had.

I think I prefer the EEs, but I'm still hoping that we get the option when those come around.

I think I am going to go with McKellan on this one.  New Line will not say a work until they have an announcement ready.  McKellan more than likely has been contacted and a start date signed.  He just let the cat out of the bag before New Line was ready.

Today's MGM statement on the bids it has received:

“MGM said today it has received a number of bids as part of its ongoing process of exploring strategic alternatives, which include continuing to operate as a standalone entity and evaluating a potential sale of the Company. The Company will review the bids and related transaction terms over the next several weeks. As part of its efforts to strengthen its financial position and to facilitate the Company’s strategic review process, MGM also said today it expects to work with its lenders to extend the current forbearance period on its bank debt, which ends March 31, 2010. The Company also expects to seek a forbearance agreement for its revolving line of credit, for which a payment is due April 8. MGM appreciates the strong support it has received from its lenders throughout this process.”

This afternoon Reuters reported that Lionsgate and Len Blavatnik's Access Industries made bids and that Time Warner was still considering one.  It is not known if Time Warner submitted one by the close of today.