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HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: Ponyo - Page 2

post #31 of 87
3/2/10 at 10:23pm
I can't believe that there is not a proper English subtitle track on this release - it is beyond comprehension. I don't care who they put on a dub track, I watch films in their original language, and not having a subtitle track means the original audio is pretty much useless.

If this is any indication of how the rest of Miyaziki's work will be released in North America on Blu Ray, then I am going to be extremely disappointed. The previous releases on DVD were great, but the increased resolution would have been worth rebuying all of them. Without proper subtitles FORGET IT!
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Gear mentioned in this thread:

Ponyo - 2 Disc (Blu-ray + DVD) [Blu-ray]
post #32 of 87
3/3/10 at 8:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan Tuck View Post

So there really isn't a regular English subtitle track?  Just closed captions?  I thought we were past this.

I gotta admit, Ive read through this thread, and I still can't tell whether this release has proper English subtitles or closed captions.  Which is it?  Maybe this thread needs subtitles! 
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post #33 of 87
3/3/10 at 10:43am
Quote:
 
I gotta admit, Ive read through this thread, and I still can't tell whether this release has proper English subtitles or closed captions.  Which is it?  Maybe this thread needs subtitles!  

I get the impression that it might be something in between.

By proper English subtitles, do you mean a translation of the original Japanese dialog, instead of displaying the localized dialog of the dub? If so, it might have proper English subtitles.  There is a scene that might provide a quick indication, where the crew of a ship think the have been blown a long distance from there original location.  The place they think they see will be half way around the world from the localization of the dialog.

By closed captions I take it you mean they include cues for the deaf or hard of hearing, such as "[yelling] Blah! Blah! BLAHHH!!!" (SDH).

I get the impression this disc has "Proper English Closed Captions." 

Can someone clarify?
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post #34 of 87
3/3/10 at 12:14pm
When an anime movie, television series or OVA is translated, the anime has a team of translators that are in the employ of the studio, which does the audio track for the English dub for any particular title they may be working on. In effect, the English audio track (or English dub) may differ from the subtitled track that appears on the particular anime title they may be working on. English audio or English dubbing is often referred to as ADR (Automated Dialogue Replacement).

Now, when the translators originally translate the anime, their translation may be as close to the original Japanese dialogue as it can be and the translation team will often rewrite certain "Japanese" cultural references in the anime and re-write it so that it's easily understandable by its American and English speaking fans.

When the script-writers get hold of the translation, they may make changes to the dialogue so that when the voice actors (called seiyuu in Japan) are speaking their lines of dialogue for placement within the anime they are working on matches or syncs with the movement of the anime characters mouth. Often, you'll find that the English audio dub will different slightly from the English subtitled track.

Bear in mind that the actual translation of the anime will depend on the quality of the translator and how well he or she can translate the anime from the original source material that the studio received from their licensor (the company that handles licensing for the anime they are working on).

Also note that when an anime is licensed, and when the ADR studio receives the original source material, that the anime they receive only contains the anime with the original Japanese audio track. Japanese anime is only received in its original Japanese audio track. Japanese studios do not provide translations in English and neither do they provide the translation for the dub.
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post #35 of 87
3/3/10 at 12:18pm
Jeff, I hear you. I have all of the Ghibli movies on DVD and I have to say that I cannot remember if the DVD releases contain the subtitled track. I would assume so since the DVD's have English and Japanese audio tracks. It's sad to hear that the Ponyo Blu-ray doesn't contain a subtitled track. 
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post #36 of 87
3/3/10 at 12:42pm
I e-mailed Disney about Ponyo regarding the lossy Japanese audio and the subtitles.  Regarding the subtitles, they replied:

"When you select the Japanese Dolby Digital 5.1 Track, regular English subtitles will display. When you select the DTS-MA English track, and turn subtitles on, English SDH will display."

SDH-only subtitles would have been a deal-breaker, but lossy audio, while not ideal, isn't enough to keep me from buying the disc, so I'll probably pick up Ponyo after all.
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post #37 of 87
3/3/10 at 12:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cafink View Post

"When you select the Japanese Dolby Digital 5.1 Track, regular English subtitles will display. When you select the DTS-MA English track, and turn subtitles on, English SDH will display."

Can any of you guys who have the disc confirm this?
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post #38 of 87
3/3/10 at 5:26pm
Tell me about it. I'll probably pick up the Blu-ray on Saturday. 
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post #39 of 87
3/3/10 at 10:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Silverman View Post

Quote:


Can any of you guys who have the disc confirm this?
 

I'm fairly certain when I was was watching the Japanese version this afternoon I had regular subtitles. There were absolutely no SDH events like describing noises and such. I also thought the DD5.1 640k track was quite good, one of the best ones I've heard. The PQ is stellar and it's well worth the $15.
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post #40 of 87
3/3/10 at 11:25pm

Well, I rented it to see for myself if it had a regular subtitle track. It does. You can select an English subtitle track from the subtitle menu after selecting the Japanese track. If you select the English track and then go to the subtitle menu, the subtitles are an SDH track. The film is actually better than I thought it would be, considering some of the reviews I read. I think films such as "Totoro" and "Porco Rosso" are better, but this film was nowhere near the dog that I thought it would be. The film is aimed at the younger set and I was concerned that it would be nearly unwatchable for an adult,  but I think it is pretty decent. The adult characters seemed too accepting of the fantastical goings on. There is no skepticism at all from the mother when the main character tells her what he is seeing, which makes the mother seem rather too good to be true. The film is meant to be an uplifting family film and I would say that Miyazaki succeeds in delivering on that front.

I thought the opening animation sequence was a bit minimalist for a theatrical release, but the film had some very nice visuals in later sequences. The animation is nowhere near the quality of the Disney classics, but even Disney can not live up to that kind of quality with their modern animated films. It is still nice to see hand-drawn animated films being made amid all the CGI animated films that have become the norm. It cost 12 dollars to rent this film. I just should have gone ahead and bought it. While it doesn't reach the level of his earlier films, I'm beginning to think that I should have purchased it as a vote for having the rest of his films released on BD.

The picture quality is top notch and the sound quality of the Japanese track was quite good, even though it is not a lossless track. At present, lossless tracks are meaningless to me since my receiver is not capable of decoding the tracks. The lossy track at 640 Kb/s sounded fine to me.

So, after seeing it, I have to take back what I said in my earlier postings. Disney actually did a good job on this disc and the movie would have been a worthwhile purchase. I really haven't been entirely disappointed by a Miyazaki film; although, he did come close with "Howl's Moving Castle".

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post #41 of 87
3/4/10 at 10:02am
I won't be purchasing this release, due to the lack of a high-resolution Japanese language track.  I will also be advising my friends to avoid this release, too.

Unacceptable for a blu-ray release in 2010.
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post #42 of 87
3/4/10 at 3:12pm
Edwin, thanks for the heads-up. I'll definitely be picking up this release ... I also discovered that Ponyo will be on sale next week from Best Buy, as well. I'll be picking it up this Saturday.
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post #43 of 87
3/4/10 at 4:21pm
Jaref-
Quote:
The reason why I find Adam's remark "I look at this release essentially as a remake" particularly offensive is that he's making a judgment on the film without knowing what the anime industry is all about. If he had correctly done his research, he would have discovered that none of the Miyazaki or Studio Ghibli films that Disney has released have been edited in any way and that the "no content edits" clause was a sticking point in the "anime licensing" contract that Disney signed with Studio Ghibli.

Feel free to disagree with my comment, but I think you may have misunderstood. If a foreign film is successful there is a chance that it will be remade in the US with a US cast.  The vast majority of US consumers don't want to watch a film in Japanese with subtitles, that is why foreign films get remade.  Some are fairly faithful to the original vision, others are adapted (The Seven Samurai/Magnificent Seven).  In the case of an animated film (anime or not) there is no need to re-film it to do a remake (or maybe I should say a US release).  You just switch the voice cast.  If I was Japanese, I would want to watch a live action film in English with Japanese subtitles to get the full impact of the actors performance, but I would want to watch an animated film like The Little Mermaid dubbed in Japanese since the "actor" to my is the animator and their performance is the same regardless of if the voice is replaced.  So, replacing the voice with a native speaker is (in my opinion) not the same thing.  I'm judging this as film not as an industry.  While it might be anime, I don't think its Disney's intent to release it as such. 


Quote:
Tell me about it. I'll probably pick up the Blu-ray on Saturday. 

Don't forget to print out the coupon I pasted on the first page of this thread!
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post #44 of 87
3/4/10 at 4:36pm
Adam, I respect your review but your statement about the animated film being a remake is incorrect. There have been no changes, edits or cuts made to the content of the animation. Matter of fact, Disney is contractually forbidden by Hayao Miyazaki and Studio Ghibli from making any kind of edits or cuts to the content of the feature film.

If your statement was in regards to the "dubbed audio track,"  even that is not a remake. It's simply the translation of the original script of the Japanese audio. Often, these kind of reviews are generally written by those people who know next to nothing about how anime licensing or anime subtitling/English dubbing is performed.

I think the Digital Bits reviews on the audio/subtitle describes it more in detail:

Quote:
The audio on this Blu-ray is... well, complicated. Unfortunately, Disney has followed their standard BD production template here, which means the DTS-HD MA lossless track is devoted to the English-dubbed audio, with only a lossy Dolby Digital track given to the film's original Japanese mix. While this policy works fine for more casual American viewers, it COMPLETELY fails to take into account the desires of foreign film and anime enthusiasts - people who really care about hearing the original intended audio performances AND are the most likely to purchase the Blu-ray version over the DVD. Complicating a comparison between the two tracks is the fact that Disney has locked out "on the fly" audio switching during the film. But upon comparison, there is a major difference between the two. The opening chapter's Fantasia-esque undersea sequence simply sparkles in the English lossless mix - the strings and undertones of Joe Hisaishi's score come out perfectly, along with all the little snap-crackle-pop of plankton creation - audio details that get buried in the lossy tracks. But once characters start speaking, the Japanese mix is far superior. All of the dubbed voices sound like actors just standing in a studio (the voices of Liam Neeson and Matt Damon are particularly jarring), while the timbre of the Japanese track is far more organic and smoothly blended with the rest of the elements. So for the moment, if audio fidelity is the most important thing for you, then the English dub might be your preferred choice. But if director's intent, superior mixing and better voice performances are key to your enjoyment, you're just going to have to put up with a lossy mix. We STONGLY encourage Disney to revise their template for future foreign language film releases on Blu-ray, to order to include lossless audio for BOTH the original language and dubbed English tracks whenever possible. 

[Note: If lossless original language audio is important to you, then by all means let Disney know by calling their customer service number (800-723-4763 U.S./888-877-2843 Canada), or better yet by writing them an e-mail or letter. PLEASE be polite when doing so, because the voices of dedicated, reasonable customers are ALWAYS heard the loudest and taken most seriously by the studios.]
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post #45 of 87
3/4/10 at 5:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Gregorich View Post

Jaref-
 


Feel free to disagree with my comment, but I think you may have misunderstood. If a foreign film is successful there is a chance that it will be remade in the US with a US cast.  The vast majority of US consumers don't want to watch a film in Japanese with subtitles, that is why foreign films get remade.  Some are fairly faithful to the original vision, others are adapted (The Seven Samurai/Magnificent Seven).  In the case of an animated film (anime or not) there is no need to re-film it to do a remake (or maybe I should say a US release).  You just switch the voice cast.  If I was Japanese, I would want to watch a live action film in English with Japanese subtitles to get the full impact of the actors performance, but I would want to watch an animated film like The Little Mermaid dubbed in Japanese since the "actor" to my is the animator and their performance is the same regardless of if the voice is replaced.  So, replacing the voice with a native speaker is (in my opinion) not the same thing.  I'm judging this as film not as an industry.  While it might be anime, I don't think its Disney's intent to release it as such. 


 


I can't speak for Jaref, but I do. Vehemently. Especially, the sentiments expressed in the preceding post. Animators do create a performance, but a lot of that perfomance is suggested to them by the chosen voice cast. The voice's cast for ab animated film are carefully considered. They are not just pulled out of a hat and they are not just readily replaced. The voice performance is one of the most important aspects in creating a "life-like" character. When a character's voice is badly cast, no amount of the animator's "performance" can ever save it. The voice cast chosen for the English dub is not bad, but it took me only a few moments of listening to Sosuke to tell me that the change in voice and the different beats and inflections, resulted in a large change in how I perceived the character. The Japanese voice actor gave Sosuke a measured, mature (for a five year old) and caring inflection to his conversations with the adults around him. The Japanese Sosuke was really a five year old "adult" with a more developed sense of the worth of people than other kids his age. The English voice was okay but, to me, his delivery just made the character more generic. He just didn't recreate that same feeling of a "older, empathic" Sosuke. That is why I can't agree with the sentiment that the voice actors in animated films are easily interchangeable parts. It suggests that what the original voice actor imparts to the character is of little importance and is easily disposed of. Really, your suggestion that changing the cast is no big deal just makes me shake my head. If that is the case, then I guess you would think that having Madonna replace Peggy Lee as "Peg"  and "Si" and "Am" would be no big deal if Disney wanted to update "Lady and The Tramp" for a new generation. 

Ugh! I can see it now. Madonna squawking out "He's a Tramp", obliterating Peggy Lee's wonderful performance in voicing that character. Peg's movements alone show just how much inspiration the animators got from Lee's warm, sexy performance of that song. Nope. I just can't agree with you that a voice actor's performance in an animated film is somehow easily disposed of and interchangeable like a pair of spark plugs in an automobile engine.
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post #46 of 87
3/4/10 at 5:12pm
Well, I still don't see how this can be classified as "remake", there is no remade film here, just a different voice cast.
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post #47 of 87
3/4/10 at 5:33pm
Hi Edwin-S,

Thank you for the clarification. Phew! OK, so if we choose Japanese Audio and then choose English Subtitles, it will switch over to *Proper* English Subtitles (with no SDH / Closed Captioning for the Hearing Impaired). Good.

It's just unfortunate about the lossy Original Japanese Audio mix. I'll probably pick up both the Original Import Blu-Ray and the Domestic Release (using the Domestic to lend out to friends, etc.), and show support of Miyazaki's film to get the rest of them released here in the U.S. on Blu-Ray.
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post #48 of 87
3/4/10 at 6:34pm
Thanks for the info on the subtitles, Eric and Edwin; that's really good to know!

And while I respect Adam's opinions, I also have to disagree that this is a "remake."  If I switch over to the Spanish-language track on Where the Wild Things Are, I don't feel I'm watching a "remake" of the English-language version.

I guess you could consider it an "adaptation" or "interpretation" of the dialogue from the original script, but not a remake.

Also, thanks for the review, Matt!
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post #49 of 87
3/4/10 at 7:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan Tuck View Post

Thanks for the info on the subtitles, Eric and Edwin; that's really good to know!

And while I respect Adam's opinions, I also have to disagree that this is a "remake."  If I switch over to the Spanish-language track on Where the Wild Things Are, I don't feel I'm watching a "remake" of the English-language version.

I guess you could consider it an "adaptation" or "interpretation" of the dialogue from the original script, but not a remake.

Also, thanks for the review, Matt!
 

Best point on that yet.
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post #50 of 87
3/4/10 at 7:32pm
This isn't a remake in even the loosest possible definition of the word.
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post #51 of 87
3/4/10 at 9:08pm
What I particularly dislike about Disney's choice for English voice talent is picking them because they are a "name", not necessarily because they are good. If they really had any interest in picking English talent who were familiar with the industry they could have done much better than some of the choices they made.

One of the extras with the English casting director on how they picked the lead roles said it all- She said something like this, "I went to my kids and they told me that Miley Cyrus had a sister and there was an "extra" Jonas brother!!!" To put it bluntly- Lame. I seriously doubt Miyazaki knew anything about these kids and could just imagine him sitting there listening to John Lasseter telling him they'll draw in a good Western box office. 

As for the adult actors, do kids really care if Liam Neeson, Tina Fey or Matt Damon are in the movie? Why do they even bother?
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post #52 of 87
3/4/10 at 9:40pm
I just think that maybe Adam choose his statement incorrectly. When someone mentions "remake," I think of Battlestar Galactica (1978, 2003), Knight Rider (1982, 2008) and V (1983, 2009). These are remakes, as the term is defined. It requires the production of creation of the original concept. The simple matter of adding subtitles or an English dub just doesn't classify it as a remake.

I think that, in the process of writing a review on an anime release, that the review was written in the same context as maybe his review on a regular Hollywood movie (The Dark Knight, National Treasure). The problem is that anime releases are on a different level than Hollywood movies released to Blu-ray.

Far as Disney's choices go, I think that they also rely too much on using "big-name stars" to handle the voice acting chores on the anime they are releasing. I think that the only English dub that I really liked, for which they released, was the English dub for Porco Rosso. I thought that their choice for using Michael Keaton as Porco was a perfect fit.
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post #53 of 87
3/5/10 at 2:22pm
Great point Eric, Kemcha.

When I was watching Ponyo in the theaters, when I heard Ponyo's Dad, Fujimoto (voiced by Liam Neeson), all I could hear was Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn (>_<) , his voice is too distinct.
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post #54 of 87
3/5/10 at 5:32pm
That's not to say Liam Neeson is bad, he is, by far, one of the better VO performers on the cast. He was also part of the English cast on Studio Ghibli's previous work (which has of yet received a western release)- Tales from Earthsea, so at least he had some familiarity with the subject. But he was far better suited for that film than he was for this one. I hope that movie gets its licensing issues cleared up so more people can check it out (at any rate I know there are lots of Ursala K. LeGuin fans who would enjoy it).

As for the rest of the English cast, I could care less, especially the kids. Just a passing fad. Will Miley Cyrus' sister have any fans in 10yrs from now? Doubtful.
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post #55 of 87
3/5/10 at 10:34pm
Not trying to pick on anyone, but this is not a remake, it is simply an English dub of a foreign film.
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post #56 of 87
3/6/10 at 10:03am
Thanks, Jeff. That's what I've been trying to say. I do respect Adam's reviews, I just think that maybe some research should have been done, with respect to foreign films and with anime licensing/production before the review was made.

But, I do think, that in the future when reviews are written on anime releases, that maybe when future reviews are done that there should be a special note that the review being done is either on the English dub or on the Japanese audio with English subtitles.
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post #57 of 87
3/6/10 at 10:03am
 
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post #58 of 87
3/6/10 at 4:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kemcha View Post

But, I do think, that in the future when reviews are written on anime releases, that maybe when future reviews are done that there should be a special note that the review being done is either on the English dub or on the Japanese audio with English subtitles.

It doesn't necessarily have to be anime, but any foreign language film.
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post #59 of 87
3/6/10 at 6:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kemcha View Post


But, I do think, that in the future when reviews are written on anime releases, that maybe when future reviews are done that there should be a special note that the review being done is either on the English dub or on the Japanese audio with English subtitles.


Why should there be a special note when the review clearly states what's being reviewed?


Quote:
Originally Posted by MattH. View Post

 
The voices for the English version distributed here by Disney uses two primary children from families of Disney contract players. Both Noah Cyrus (Miley’s younger sister) and Frankie Jonas (a younger Jonas brother) give believable life to the animated characters that children will certainly identify with. Liam Neeson’s deep, threatening baritone works well as the fearsome father of the title character. Tina Fey has pluck and grit as the mother who’s having to do a great amount of the parenting with her husband away for lengthy spells. Cate Blanchett has a queenly air about her as Ponyo’s mother, a kind of goddess of mercy who gives her blessings on the transformation. Cloris Leachman, Betty White, and Lily Tomlin each contribute fun caricatures of the elderly with more life in their shaky limbs than even they suspected.
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post #60 of 87
3/7/10 at 12:44am
Michael, simply because of the comment that the reviewer made that he considered it a remake. It isn't a remake. If the reasoning behind that is true then every single piece of television, every movie is a remake, simply because the producers remastered the audio for Blu-ray.

What we're simply saying is that Ponyo is not a remake. That's what we're commenting on.

Now, I've been collecting anime for a long time, ever since the first anime was licensed for North America, back when companies like U.S. Manga Corp, AnimEigo and Central Park Media released the first subtitled and dubbed anime back in the mid-80's. Some of us are even more knowledgeable about how anime is handled simply because we're well aware of the process by which anime is dubbed into English as well as subtitled.

When a piece of work, whether that be a movie, television series or animated work is reproduced as a remake, that means that it's re-filmed, re-produced into a new piece of work and that's its original on its own. Adam simply remarked that because Ponyo had an English dub that he considered it a remake. That, in itself, is a poor interpretation about the Japanese anime licensing genre for North America.

What I explained in an earlier post is that these Miyazaki movies from Studio Ghibli are under strict and prohibitive licensing agreements that Disney is obligated to follow. According to the licensing agreement that Disney signed with Studio Ghibli, Disney is not allowed to edit one single piece of footage from any of Studio Ghibli's movies. Matter of fact, the only thing they can add to their films is; (a) Disney is allowed to add an English dub to their Ghibli anime films and (b) Disney is allowed to add an English subtitle to the films.

What we're asking is that HTF reviewers do more research on anime that they're about to review. It just shows a lack of respect for the millions of anime fans who continue to support various anime releases. We're not saying that we don't respect Adam's reviews, we do respect them. His reviews are very informative. However, injecting statement like "it's a remake" only serves to alienate fans/consumers of this genre and does nothing helpful for those reading that review.
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Gear mentioned in this thread:

Ponyo - 2 Disc (Blu-ray + DVD) [Blu-ray]