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Home Theater Components HDMI and 1080 i/p Questions

post #1 of 12
2/8/10 at 6:49pm
Thread Starter 
So I am looking to setup a decent home theater.

I was looking at purchasing below

Onkyo S5200 or S6200
Panasonic 42" Plasma 1080P (600hz Sub drive)
Denon DVD-1940ci

So here are my questions. I am horribly confused with all of this from all the information I have been reading on the internet.

Questions:

1. Can an optical audio or another digital audio connection be used for 7.1 surround sound?
I would need to do this if I used the Onkyo S5200

2. Is it better to use a HDMI plug for audio and will I hear a difference??
Will use this if I use the Onkyo S6200. I would like to reduce the amount of cords.

3. If I buy the 1080P Plasma TV, do I need to purchase 1080P equipment such as DVD players or Blu-Rays?
I have see 1080i dvd players and not sure if I can use them or if they will work fine with this TV

4. Can DVD Players produce 7.1 Surround Sound Signals?
4b. If so, which players?
4c. Do the provide audio through only analog signals or HDMI?

5.  When DVD players upconvert to 1080p, does the standard signal start out at interlaced and is converted to progressive scan? Or does it convert from the standard video to 1080p?
Will it "visually" matter in motion pictures if I hook up a 1080i DVD player to a 1080p TV.

6. Will a 1080P TV convert a 1080i signal to 1080P?
I suppose that will get me started. THANKS!
Edited by JGray152 - 2/8/10 at 7:47pm
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post #2 of 12
2/8/10 at 8:48pm
1 - Only HDMI or 7.1 multi-channel analog connections can be used for real 7.1 surround. There's always Dolby Pro Logic IIx, which takes a stereo or 5.1 signal, and simulates 7.1 surround from it.
2 - It is better to use HDMI, but is subjective as to how much difference you'll hear. Depends some on how good your hearing is, and how you look at it. Other than the 7.1 multi-channel analog connections, HDMI is the only way to get the HD audio from blu ray movies. Since the HD audio is better than regular DD and DTS, technically, HDMI is better, and you should hear a difference. This is where your hearing comes into play. The 6200 decodes the HD audio formats, and the 5200 doesn't. The 6200 is the best buy of the two.
3 - You don't necessarily NEED to, but it certainly would be better to have a blu ray player, than a dvd player that upconverts. Blu ray players also upconvert dvds, and most do better at it than an upconverting dvd player.
4 - Only blu ray players produce 7.1 surround. Only certain blu ray movies have a 7.1 soundtrack. The best dvd has is 6.1 surround. Of course, if you have a 7.1 receiver setup with 7.1 speakers, and just have a regular dvd player hooked up to it, you can set the receiver on Dolby Pro Logic IIx and get 7.1 simulated surround.
5 - Not sure of the technical part of the question. Probably won't "visually" matter if you hook up a 1080i upconverting player to a 1080p tv. Lots of people do it. If you hookup a 1080p blu ray player to the 1080p tv, you should see an improvement over the 1080i picture though.
6 - Most new tvs will show the pictures at it's native resolution. If it's native resolution is 1080p, then yes. If you see them side by side, a picture that's upconverted to 1080p, isn't quite as good as a real 1080p picture (blu ray picture). If they're not side by side, you'll probably never notice the difference.
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post #3 of 12
2/9/10 at 4:36pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the info!!

I was looking at the S5200 and if 7.1 can only work with HDMI or 7.1 Analog, how can the S5200 be 7.1? It does not offer Dolby Pro Logic IIx and does not have 7.1 analog connections, only HDMI which is pass-thru. Seems kinda pointless to offer the S5200 with HDMI port switching ( I call it) since you really can't do anything with them besides switch the video sources.

Am I missing something??

[quote]Not sure of the technical part of the question. Probably won't "visually" matter if you hook up a 1080i upconverting player to a 1080p tv. Lots of people do it. If you hookup a 1080p blu ray player to the 1080p tv, you should see an improvement over the 1080i picture though.[/quote]

Basically, if the dvd player reads the data from the DVD in the normal format (480i/p??), when the player upconverts to 1080, is the first format it converts to 1080i or can it convert straight to 1080p. I can get a 1080i TV for much less than a 1080p.
Edited by JGray152 - 2/9/10 at 4:50pm
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post #4 of 12
2/9/10 at 4:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JGray152 View Post

Thanks for the info!!

I was looking at the S5200 and if 7.1 can only work with HDMI or 7.1 Analog, how can the S5200 be 7.1? It does not offer Dolby Pro Logic IIx and does not have 7.1 analog connections, only HDMI which is pass-thru. Seems kinda pointless to offer the S5200 with HDMI port switching ( I call it) since you really can't do anything with them besides switch the video sources.

Am I missing something??
It does do Dolby Pro Logic IIx, so that must be how it does it, just simulated. See here: http://www.us.onkyo.com/model.cfm?m=HT-S5200&class=Systems&p=f
It has been my understanding for years, that optical and digital coax isn't capable of 7.1 surround. Some one correct me if that's wrong. I'll try to do more research on that.

As far as the upconverting, I think if the player advertises it upconverts to 1080p, I'd guess it goes straight to that, instead of going through different levels to get there. Upconverting is software interpolating anyway, I think. Put an upconverted 1080p picture up next to a blu ray picture (real 1080p), and even though both are supposed to be 1080p, you'll see a difference. The upconverting just isn't as good as the real thing. Because of "truth in advertising", they shouldn't be allowed to advertise that, since it isn't true 1080p. Again, this is my understanding of how this works. Someone let us know if I'm way off here. Set us straight. I've not heard or read different up till now, so I've believed it to be so.

EDIT:
I found this on a site that sells cables:
http://www.ramelectronics.net/audio-video/audio-cables/digital-audio-optical-toslink-cable/c10000-c11000-c11003.html
Quote:
Two Connections are widely used for connecting Digital Audio
1) Coaxial RCA: Cable and connectors are 75 ohm impedance and used to connect DVD players, Compact Disk (CD) and some DAT recorders to multichannel surround sound (Dolby Digital, DTS, etc) equipment.
2) Toslink is a fiber optic version of the coaxial digital audio connection and is used in the same applications as coax. Most newer equipment has a Toslink optical connection.
Both Types Support 5.1, 7.1 Digital Audio Surround sound Audio Formats: Dolby Digital, DTS, Cable, Satellite, Playstation3, Xbox 360
I highlighted the info to see.
That's the first time I've ever heard that, and I've been into HT for a long time. Maybe it was because no dvds had 7.1 soundtracks? They only went as high as 6.1 surround.


Then, here is a direct contradiction to that. Thia one says what I did:
http://www.ehow.com/how_4963659_hookup-components-surround-sound.html

Quote:
  1. Step 2

    Before you get started making connections, note that only an HDMI cable is capable of transmitting 7.1 audio formats. Other digital audio cables, such as optical and coaxial, only support 5.1 audio. Opt for an HDMI connection whenever available to enjoy true 7.1 surround sound. Ideally, you'll want to connect each component in the system capable of utilizing a 7.1 format to an HDMI input on your receiver and then run a single HDMI cable from the receiver's output to the television to route the video there. This could be a problem if your receiver only has one HDMI input. If this is the case, you'll want to connect the component, most likely to use 7.1 formatting to this input, to probably your Blu Ray or DVD player. Many television programs, movies and music utilize a 5.1 format. This means you'll only be getting blended channels in the additional two speakers anyway, so the lack of sufficient HDMI jacks for all components shouldn't be a problem. However, you should be aware of it and plan accordingly.

Again, I highlighted the info.

With contradicting info, how do you know what to believe?
Has anyone tried a 7.1 soundtrack, from a blu ray movie, over optical or digital coax?
Edited by Ed Moxley - 2/9/10 at 5:46pm
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post #5 of 12
2/9/10 at 5:37pm
Thread Starter 
ok, I guess I have been seeing 720p and not 1080i TVs which drop the price.....
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post #6 of 12
2/9/10 at 5:39pm
Thread Starter 
I understand upscaling is not true 1080p since its "filling in" those additional pixels.

If I think of anything else, I will ask. Thanks!
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post #7 of 12
2/9/10 at 5:46pm
Thread Starter 
I thought the PLIIx was something else and not Dolby Prologic IIx.

I will do some research as well. I will call the manufactures to see if there blu-ray players / dvd player support 7.1 through optical or digital connections.

I will also see if Onkyo will tell me if the stereo gets 7.1 signals through optical or other digital connections. If not, what a waste of a stereo.
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post #8 of 12
2/9/10 at 5:48pm
See the EDIT in my post above............
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post #9 of 12
2/9/10 at 5:52pm
Thread Starter 
I found this on the AVS Forum.
Quote:

Bitstream
5.1 Dolby Digital (DVD ) = 0.448 Mbps
5.1 Dolby Digital (Bluray) = 0.640 Mbps
5.1 DTS = 0.768 Mbps
6.1 DTS-ES = 1.5 Mbps

LPCM
2.0 16/48 LPCM = 1.5 Mbps (supported by optical)
5.1 16/48 LPCM = 4.6 Mbps (HDMI only)
5.1 24/48 LPCM = 6.9 Mbps (HDMI only)
7.1 24/48 LPCM = 9.2 Mbps (HDMI only)
7.1 24/96 LPCM = 18.4 Mbps (HDMI only)

When A/V receivers without HDMI say they support 7.1, in most cases, all that means is they will apply 7.1 Dolby Prologic IIx processing to a 5.1 signal. It does not mean they accept 7.1 signal. If a receiver doesn't have HDMI, then it doesn't support a 7.1 LPCM input from the PS3 or any other device, and nothing can be done to change that. Some receivers without HDMI have 7.1 analog input jacks, but the Sony didn't include the DACs necessary to make 7.1 analog output possible -- this was done to keep costs down.
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post #10 of 12
2/9/10 at 6:03pm
I looked in the owner's manual of my Oppo blu ray player too, and found this:
Quote:
Due to bandwidth limitations, high resolution audio formats such as Dolby Digital Plus,
Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD High Resolution and DTS-HD Master Audio cannot be sent
through the coaxial or optical digital audio output. A reduced resolution version of the
same audio track will be output instead. To listen to high resolution audio formats in
their best quality, please use the HDMI connection if you have a receiver that handles
HDMI audio (see page 13) or use the multi-channel analog outputs if you do not (see
page 14)
Since the HD audio formats are the only one's with 7.1 soundtracks, it says basically what I said too. This is from page 15, under the "Notes".
Sorry for all the confusion. I guess we've both learned something today.
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post #11 of 12
2/10/10 at 4:19am
Thread Starter 
I guess so. :) Contradicting info sucks :(

I am glad that is cleared up. It was one of the biggest concerns I had. I figured since optical connections are one of the fastest connections available, only limited by the optical processor and the quality of the cable, that 7.1 audio would have a fighting chance through it :(

I have yet to purchase anything so now I can look in the directions I want to.

Do you know of any other Home Theater 7.1 Systems that do not include a blue ray??

Since Onkyo has a little misleading information on their website about the S5200, I am starting to wonder about the S6200. I wonder if there is anything I am going to expect of the S6200 that the S6200 may not have...

So for now,

TV: Panasonic Plasma 42" 1080P
Stereo: Onkyo S6200

Now, I am torn in many directions as to what I really want to get. Either a Blu-Ray or a Playstation 3?? Any suggestions about the PS3 being used as the video player?
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post #12 of 12
2/10/10 at 5:03am
Any of the Onkyos from the 6200 on up, should be just fine. They decode the HD audio over HDMI, so there will be less cables to contend with.

People like the ps3 a lot for blu ray playback. They say it does a decent job upconverting dvds too. I went with the Oppo BDP-83 player since it played sacd and dvd-audio discs, as well as blu rays, and is considered to be one of, if not the best upconverting player. I like it a lot. It's a couple hundred more than the ps3 though.
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