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STOP UNIVERSALS combo disks - Page 2

post #31 of 51
12/6/09 at 12:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Felix Martinez View Post

They couldn't even say that.  DualDisc met the DVD spec but did not meet the Red Book CD spec.  These hybrid discs did not play in any slot-loading (i.e. car) player I tested them on when I was reviewing discs. 
 
Hi Felix,
I meant they could say they played in DVD and CD players, but not legally call them either CDs or DVDs. The fact they didn't play in some players (especially not in slot-loading car players as you noted) was beside the point ; many BDs do not play in many BD players even though they are legally called BDs.

That is interesting what you said about the weight. I didn't know about that, and the same thing may apply to the new combo BD/DVD. This may be of concern because IME (this is just for me remember) it is the spindle motor failing that has been the downfall of my DVD players (NOT the lasers etc.). I guess extra medium weight would not help this, though I don't know exactly how the motor/spindle are connected in BD players.
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Gear mentioned in this thread:

Bourne Identity (Blu-ray + DVD Combo) [Blu-ray]
Bourne Ultimatum (Blu-ray + DVD Combo) [Blu-ray]
post #32 of 51
12/6/09 at 1:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Felix Martinez View Post




They couldn't even say that.  DualDisc met the DVD spec but did not meet the Red Book CD spec.  These hybrid discs did not play in any slot-loading (i.e. car) player I tested them on when I was reviewing discs. 

Also, while some manufacturers went public with warnings, off the record I was told that the additional (albeit miniscule) weight of the DualDiscs were outside the spec for existing player transports, so playability issues and actual hardware damage *over time* was possible.

I'm sorry, but while I understand the perception that some of us are "overreacting" or jumping the gun, until Panasonic, Sony, Oppo, et al say these things are within spec for their Blu players *and* DVD player manufacturers say the same for the DVD side, I will be skeptical.


 


Blu ray has added many "features" to discs that are NOT compatible with 1st and 2nd generation players, making them unplayable for people who own those players. Does this mean you won't buy blu ray at all? This seems to be the logic you are suggesting.



Doug
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post #33 of 51
12/6/09 at 1:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyD View Post

I don't like this force feeding option of the dual disc.

Make all versions available.
an only blu-ray version
a dual disc version
a dvd version.

Then I and everyone else can buy the one they want.

 
I don't agree. I think the idea here was to get everyone buying blu ray. Someone buys the DVD, they have the bluray also and they can charge more for both. Getting the price of DVDs back where they wanted them.

The studios had hoped that blu-ray would replace DVD at a higher price point. They were not happy at all with DVD being used as a loss leader by the likes of Walmart and Target. However now it might be a moot point as Walmart and Target are now both using blu-ray as a loss leader, something the studios had hoped to avoid.

Doug
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post #34 of 51
12/6/09 at 1:33pm
Don't agree with what.
That every version should be sold or that you don't want every version to be available.

If they want everyone to just buy blu, then start with exclusive to blu releases.
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post #35 of 51
12/6/09 at 1:43pm
Just for the record, I fully expect at least some of my  BRs to fail simply due to the data density and tolerances that are required to read it. I expect others to fail due to faulty manufacturing, either delamination or contamination of the bonding agents. This is one reason why I'm sticking to purchases under $10 for BRs other than specific titles I know I'm going to get my money out of.

Obviously not ALL combo discs have failed, but neither can it be stated as fact that none have or won't in the future. My point is and was that adding more complexity to the manufacturing process will inevitably lead to more defects, and therefore keeping things simpler is a more prudent approach.

Ban flippers! :)
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post #36 of 51
12/6/09 at 2:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyD View Post

Don't agree with what.
That every version should be sold or that you don't want every version to be available.

If they want everyone to just buy blu, then start with exclusive to blu releases.

Its not simply that they want everyone to buy blu-ray, they want to bring up the price of DVD also. Its fairly clear at this point that blu-ray is not going to replace DVD as they had hoped.  Add to that the fact that the last few years have been a disaster for the studios as far as DVD sales go. They want to inch up the price to increase profits.

Doug

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post #37 of 51
12/6/09 at 2:11pm
I wonder how these combos will stand up to the slot-loading PS3? A pretty common BD player, and I'll hazard a guess popular among the Bourne fim "demographic". The thing about slot-loaders is they can sometimes be a bit rough on the "top" surface of a disc. This would be the DVD side, the less durable side, for anybody with a PS3 since hopefully they'd choose to play the BD side. I expect the combo BD/DVD would be somewhat thicker as regular BDs "look" thicker to me than even DVD-18s (I haven't measured).
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post #38 of 51
12/6/09 at 3:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce View Post




Blu ray has added many "features" to discs that are NOT compatible with 1st and 2nd generation players, making them unplayable for people who own those players. Does this mean you won't buy blu ray at all? This seems to be the logic you are suggesting.



Doug

I didn't buy 1st and 2nd gen players that had compatibility issues - you may recall that was one of the big criticisms of the format.  This stuff should be behind us.  At least until 3D Blu-ray...
Edited by Felix Martinez - 12/6/09 at 4:19pm
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post #39 of 51
12/6/09 at 4:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigF View Post



Hi Felix,
I meant they could say they played in DVD and CD players, but not legally call them either CDs or DVDs. The fact they didn't play in some players (especially not in slot-loading car players as you noted) was beside the point ; many BDs do not play in many BD players even though they are legally called BDs.

That is interesting what you said about the weight. I didn't know about that, and the same thing may apply to the new combo BD/DVD. This may be of concern because IME (this is just for me remember) it is the spindle motor failing that has been the downfall of my DVD players (NOT the lasers etc.). I guess extra medium weight would not help this, though I don't know exactly how the motor/spindle are connected in BD players.
 

If memory serves, BD media weighs a bit more than DVD, so leaving BD players aside for a moment, I'm curious about these BD-59s (i.e. playing the DVD side) on DVD hardware, specifically slot loading/mobile units and laptops with DVD drives.
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post #40 of 51
12/6/09 at 4:47pm
Oppo just replied that as of today, they have not rec'd the discs from Universal so they "cannot comment on any possible media compatibility issues which may occur."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Felix Martinez View Post

I'm awaiting to hear back from several hardware manufacturers.
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post #41 of 51
12/6/09 at 5:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Ulmer View Post

Obviously not ALL combo discs have failed, but neither can it be stated as fact that none have or won't in the future.

* * *

Ban flippers! :)

 

Which, of course, no one has stated.  Ban strawmen!
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post #42 of 51
12/7/09 at 2:09am
I would rather have that Universal started releasing some new titles (or catching up on the HD-DVD catalog they still need to release on Blu) than starting all over again.
I can also see many people who are going to complain that their copy either doesn't work at all, or put the dvd side in accidentally and get a less than stellar picture and sound than they're used to.
I'd rather have no extra DVDs or digital copies at all, but I can understand why some people think they're useful. But this seems to be a whole different thing, if it apparently doesn't work correctly.
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post #43 of 51
12/7/09 at 3:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Felix Martinez View Post



I didn't buy 1st and 2nd gen players that had compatibility issues - you may recall that was one of the big criticisms of the format.  This stuff should be behind us.  At least until 3D Blu-ray...

You may not have but many did.

Doug
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post #44 of 51
12/7/09 at 4:26pm
Honestly, even though I'm among the crowd who'd *like* to have the DVD included (at least in some cases, eg. mainly for new day-and-date releases of kids/family-oriented movies), I'd much rather not get it included than go this route w/ the combo disc, considering the rather minimal benefits it offers in the long run.

I guess I'm fine enough w/ it if they still at least offer the BD-only version (w/out any drawbacks at all whether in terms of quality, features or pricing).  Then I'll just avoid the combo discs in general.

Hopefully, Disney and some others will still continue to offer BD+DVD combo packs that actually include a separate DVD for popular kids/family-oriented movies going forward...

_Man_
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post #45 of 51
12/7/09 at 5:59pm
Panny has not tested the discs either (yet).  According to their P.R. rep, they "haven't heard anything about the hybrid discs."

Some good news: one area of Sony said their set-top BD players work with the new combos, but deferred PS3 and DVD compatibility to the respective areas of the company.  The PS3 people gave me long-winded legalese about proprietary and confidential info, passed the buck back to Universal, and I had to laugh and respond back; "all I'm asking is if these new discs will play in the PS3 with no issues."  They finally responded that they didn't have that info.

More good: LG said their "current" set-top players are compatible.

Bill Hunt at the Bits told me he will also be doing some testing on his Oppo unit when the Uni discs come in, so I'm sure we'll hear from him at some point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Felix Martinez View Post

Oppo just replied that as of today, they have not rec'd the discs from Universal so they "cannot comment on any possible media compatibility issues which may occur."
 


Edited by Felix Martinez - 12/8/09 at 4:56pm
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post #46 of 51
12/7/09 at 6:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce View Post




You may not have but many did.

Doug
 
I don't know how many, but the launch was certainly not stellar - not surprising with reports of hardware being "crippled."

And to quote one of the many articles in the media during this unfortunate period: "Why Sony would release expensive midrange and high end players that are obsolete within two weeks of debut is beyond me. Someone is going to get screwed."

Back to BD-59: again, no need to reinvent the wheel/disc to deliver the proposed added "value."
Edited by Felix Martinez - 12/7/09 at 6:41pm
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post #47 of 51
12/7/09 at 8:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce View Post



Its not simply that they want everyone to buy blu-ray, they want to bring up the price of DVD also. Its fairly clear at this point that blu-ray is not going to replace DVD as they had hoped.  Add to that the fact that the last few years have been a disaster for the studios as far as DVD sales go. They want to inch up the price to increase profits.

Doug

 

 



 

Well, then they are caught between a rock and a hard place. DVD sales are flat even at the present low price point, so I cannot see them having much wiggle room to raise DVD prices. It just means more lost sales as people go back to renting. Their strategy to bleed consumers with BD players isn't working too well either. The 30+ price tag on BDs up here just means a lot of lost sales. I like films, but there are very few that I'm going to pay 30+ dollars for. Even films I'd like to upgrade to BD such as MONSTER'S INC sit on the shelf. In my book, 35 bucks Canadian before taxes is too much......no matter how much I like the film. After taxes it is even worse. MONSTER'S INC. is almost 40 bucks with the government's cut factored in. At those prices, 6.00 bucks for a 7 day rental with no late fees becomes awfully attractive.
 
Also I don't like the idea of having to pay extra for discs I'll never use. Both the DVD and Digital copies in the Pixar movies are coasters as far as I'm concerned. They are redundant since I have a lot of their films on DVD already. Universal's idea to use flippers is even more annoying. Now. I'm going to have to squint to read a bunch of fine print in order to insert the right side: assuming that they are even compatible with slot loaders like the PS3. If they aren't Universal's products are going to be of no priority to me, as I'm not about to replace a piece of equipment just so I can watch one of their films from "Project Retread".
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post #48 of 51
12/9/09 at 1:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin-S View Post




Well, then they are caught between a rock and a hard place. DVD sales are flat even at the present low price point, so I cannot see them having much wiggle room to raise DVD prices. It just means more lost sales as people go back to renting. Their strategy to bleed consumers with BD players isn't working too well either. The 30+ price tag on BDs up here just means a lot of lost sales. I like films, but there are very few that I'm going to pay 30+ dollars for. Even films I'd like to upgrade to BD such as MONSTER'S INC sit on the shelf. In my book, 35 bucks Canadian before taxes is too much......no matter how much I like the film. After taxes it is even worse. MONSTER'S INC. is almost 40 bucks with the government's cut factored in. At those prices, 6.00 bucks for a 7 day rental with no late fees becomes awfully attractive.
 
Also I don't like the idea of having to pay extra for discs I'll never use. Both the DVD and Digital copies in the Pixar movies are coasters as far as I'm concerned. They are redundant since I have a lot of their films on DVD already. Universal's idea to use flippers is even more annoying. Now. I'm going to have to squint to read a bunch of fine print in order to insert the right side: assuming that they are even compatible with slot loaders like the PS3. If they aren't Universal's products are going to be of no priority to me, as I'm not about to replace a piece of equipment just so I can watch one of their films from "Project Retread".

If you don't like the prices, check out Target and Walmart. Lots of blu-ray movies for $9.95 this month.

Personally I like having a DVD copy of the movies, because I often take them to a friends house, or want to watch them in a portable DVD player. I flipper would make that simple and I wouldn't have to buy a movie twice, as I often have to now.

Doug
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post #49 of 51
1/19/10 at 3:45pm
I'm not opposed to the principle of the "flipper" disc, but I'm never sure which side to put where into the player. I guess I'm just dumb, but do all players read from the bottom?

So when the label (hard to read at best) on the hub says this side for DVD do they mean that side should go down?

it's just too confusing for us mentally challenged.
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post #50 of 51
1/19/10 at 7:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVnut View Post

I guess I'm just dumb, but do all players read from the bottom?

Yes. (Otherwise single-sided discs would require you to put them in label-down.)
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post #51 of 51
1/20/10 at 10:06am
Hmmm...  What if I stand my PS3 on its side (like some folks apparently do)?  That ought to be even more confusing for handling flippers me thinks. 

_Man_
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Gear mentioned in this thread:

Bourne Identity (Blu-ray + DVD Combo) [Blu-ray]
Bourne Ultimatum (Blu-ray + DVD Combo) [Blu-ray]