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Big Love Season 4 (Jan 10) - Page 2

post #31 of 45
2/24/10 at 10:10pm
It is a huge compund, three to take Hollis to the Hospital, the Rest cankillthem. The Green's are turning into moustace Twirling baddies.
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post #32 of 45
2/28/10 at 11:41pm
Thread Starter 
This show is spinning off into goofball world.  This season has just felt like the wheels came off, and while some of the performances are very good - especially Chloe, who frankly has been sensational in her performance this year.

 

But the performances aside, the show as it sits is just not very watchable.  This is one of those stories that has a lot of great performances, but really just says.. nothing.

 

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post #33 of 45
3/1/10 at 7:00am
Hollis losing an arm wasn't just a guy losing his arm... or even their "leader" losing an arm... this was their "prophet."  I can suspend my disbelief for a moment that the shock caused by his dis-arming would lead to inaction.  Still a stretch...  
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post #34 of 45
3/1/10 at 12:32pm

Chloe is a great actress, so it's no surprise she is one of the few things to watch this season.  I'm just glad it's a short season!

Margie is off the rails.  I don't buy where this character is going at all.  Lame.

Bill is out of control...again.  It's getting old.  It's just a repeat of his same M.O.  Only this time it's the senate!

Sissy as the villain?  Doesn't work for me.

Barb is sort of wasted here too.  And, if she cheats with the indian (Eddie?) I'm out.

 

Most of the compound stuff this season is bleh.

 

Actually, the Alby storyline is pretty interesting and with some great acting.  But, it's been such a throwaway sub-story I can't even care.

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post #35 of 45
3/7/10 at 8:44am
 Does anyone else have to crank up the sound to hear all the lines? I admit to being well past 50, and my hearing is not what it used to be, but no other show has me reaching for the volume control (and closed captions) as much as Big Love. It seems some key things are said in a mumbled off-handed way. Maybe it is because the actors can't believe their lines, like the medical help escape clause just described. The show can be infuriating in its unevenness, but I can't stop watching. It is a soap opera all right, but on an unusual stage.
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post #36 of 45
3/8/10 at 12:29am
Thread Starter 
Argh.  Just no other comment but Argh.

I have no idea where season 5 goes.

I'm not sure if I'm interested in knowing.
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post #37 of 45
3/8/10 at 6:52am
Thread Starter 
Watching it again this morning to give it a second chance, I realize exactly how bad the final scene of this show is.  As they are all on stage to make their announcement, I realize that while a great piece of cinematography, the whole piece rings incredibly hollow.  As some in the audience shout out "I didn't vote for this" you have to realize that Bill is undone the moment he steps off.  He's right, his business is likely flushed down the toilet, and the thrashing that's coming will be significant.

I know this is what the season had been building toward, but it was still incredibly unsatisfying.  The episode was just too convoluted. Too many things wrapped up too scattershot.   Marge professes her love in a different marriage situation - Barb's desire to escape.. an Invitro fertilization scam that cam on and was resolved in a single episode basically, the discovery of a meth dealer in the casino and it causing them to out their indian companions.  This felt as though 3 stories were quickly shoved into a 1 hour wrap up. 

Too many threads were started and ended.  Too many major, major holes that can't be resolved easily, or at all (Margene would easily be discovered being double married which would invalidate her marriage to Goran, and more then that make her a federal criminal having sworn out a bogus statement to INS)

This show went completely off the rails.  I just don't know how they plan to revive it for S5.  They might be best to just pretend this was all a vision or something. 
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post #38 of 45
3/8/10 at 9:04am
It Definately was the Weakest Season of all so Far.
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post #39 of 45
3/8/10 at 2:36pm
MattCR brings up the most glaring problem of all. How in the world do you profess love for Goran to INS while proclaiming on TV that you're married to someone else? I don't see any way the characters wouldn't think of this, so maybe the writers just forgot.

I wish the country could have an open discussion about polygamy, but it can't really happen because the people who would express the "pro" point of view would be tarred, feathered, and most importantly jailed. Children would be "confiscated". Families broken. So instead, polygamists lead a life hidden in the shadows. I'm not sure if outlawing polygamy prevents it in polygamist strongholds, but I do think it helps the average american citizen avoid a situation they probably know little about (and wouldn't even if it were legal).

I wonder if Bill is (or the writers are ) aware of recall elections. Unless Utah has some different laws, just because he managed to dupe the public into voting for him doesn't mean he's free and clear. If you get up on stage like that and basically say "f u" to the people who voted for you, the constituency can execute a recall election and have  you removed from office. It's not as easy as "I'm elected, I can reveal whatever now."

It certainly will be interesting to see where S5 goes. Unfortunately, I started out looking at this show with Bill being the one example of a polygamist lifestyle lived truly according to principle, but at this point, there's not much left admirable in the story.
 
I've said before that many years ago I had long discussions with a polygamist (not Mormom... there are other religions/cultures that allow it as well -- and no, I don't mean to imply it's allowed by the Mormon church). He exaplained to me it's no picnic if you're a principled man as you're responsible physically, emotionally, financially, etc. It's difficult enough working that out with one partner. In the beginning, I saw those "principles" in Bill. But gradually, Bill has all but abandoned his wives emotionally as he pursues his own passions.

The show has slowly settled into the established viewpoint that the only women who would put up with polygamy are the damaged ones. Margene was a young woman who was the daughter of a whore who was desperately looking for love and somewhere to fit in. But now that she has found those things in other places, she's not as committed to the marriage. Nikki accepted it because it's all she ever knew. But little by little, she's been exposed to a life outside the compound (secular), and now she wants a monogamous relationship. That leaves Barb, who seems to have been a bit of a black sheep in her family  even before she agreed to a polygamist lifestyle with Bill. Bill's family with his three wives was the one functional polygamist family on the show, but that's been destroyed. Now we're just watching a show about how polygamy is bad. Sissy Spacek's character may as well have been the voice of the writers -- just an excuse for men to screw around.

BTW, it was one thing when Bill fooling around with Margene. he could claim failure and weakness. But Ana? That makes him no more principled than the average tomcat.

I'll watch the show as long as it's on the air as I'm interested in the subject matter. But there's just so much wrong with what Bill's doing.
Edited by Mikah Cerucco - 3/8/10 at 8:44pm
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post #40 of 45
3/8/10 at 7:23pm
Thread Starter 
Mikah:

I believe you hit the nail on the head for me.  I'm sure I could get a lot of commentary that will reject everything I am about to say.

My wife and I (of 14 years) have very close friends who live in a plural marriage.  2 men, 4 women.  They've been friends for almost 20 years now.  They are not what I'd call "stupid" or "fundamentalists" (they are, by my account, atheists).  They share a very nice home, and are what most would call upstanding citizens.. two professors, 1 software engineer, a kindergarten teacher, a florist and a stay at home mom.  They are amongst the most happy, stable friends we have.  They have done a better job with money management and planning then anyone we know, they paid off their (very nice) 8 bedroom home on the outskirts of a major metro , and they participate everywhere.  

 

I've never seen them "make a secret" of their arrangement nor hide out.  They are not formally "hitched" or anything of the sort, but they've owned their home for 12 years together, so for all basic purposes..

The thing about Big Love that I appreciated in the early first season was that I thought this could be a daring re-look at a social taboo.  Penn & Teller took this on in "Bullshit!" and I thought this could be evaluated differently.   With Bill having a set of wives who joined their arrangement fully aware, as adults, who made a knowledgable decision without cohersion, etc.

Bill brought this up in his "speech" on the steps.  But the show has derailed from the first few seasons and the promise of a truly radical approach to the world.  In the first two seasons, you had a lot of the things I found interesting.. co-parenting, the debates about what happens next, treatment of each other as peers.  I thought that social drama was significant, interesting and was fun to watch.

The contrast between Bill's flawed, but still consensual situation and Roman's forced ill-ways made for some great and interesting shows.  Then, as Roman's trial came about, Bill's involvement changed drastically and not for the better.

I just almost wish a Big Love "Family 2" would happen, in a completely different situation.  

I'm just incredibly dissappointed with the way this season went.  It just fell apart under the pressure of manufacturing drama at the neglect of real storytelling.   There was room here to tell the story about children growing up in a plural home,  about the inner workings between the wives.. but instead, we spent the entire season focused on events completely outside the family.. and the show suffered from it.

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post #41 of 45
3/8/10 at 9:09pm
There is all kinds of built in organic drama inherent in the situation. When it comes to how we all view love and sex, that's universal. Because it's different, who wouldn't want to know how 2 men and 4 women deal with the practical day to day issues? Plural marriage. Polygamy. Swingers. Paganism. And probably a few more I'm forgetting. I've seen all kinds of models outside of 1 man, 1 woman, in marriage... forever. And really, our society doesn't really expect that, we just have to say it in polite company and all pretend.

Big Love "Family 2" sounds quite interesting, except for two things that immediately come to mind:

1) The three wives are well cast. I watch Big Love for the wives as much as (or more) for Bill.

2) The show has gone to great lengths to basically say Bill is the best Utah polygamy has to offer. There's Bill's friend, but his marriage is broken up. Other than that, the show has never shown us any others. Where would they come from... also Juniper Creek? There are some shows (L&O, CSI) where they say the formula is the star, not the actors. I'm not sure this is that type of show.

Stealing eggs from younger women and implanting them into older women? Well there you go. But at least we got to see someone's arm cut off. Yay. The more I think about it, the more I'm getting nostalgic over your Family 2 idea. If they were to do it, I'd hope they'd integrate it into what we already know as opposed to a complete retcon.


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post #42 of 45
3/9/10 at 9:37am


Quote:
Originally Posted by mattCR View Post


The thing about Big Love that I appreciated in the early first season was that I thought this could be a daring re-look at a social taboo.  Penn & Teller took this on in "Bullshit!" and I thought this could be evaluated differently.   With Bill having a set of wives who joined their arrangement fully aware, as adults, who made a knowledgable decision without cohersion, etc.

Bill brought this up in his "speech" on the steps.  But the show has derailed from the first few seasons and the promise of a truly radical approach to the world.  In the first two seasons, you had a lot of the things I found interesting.. co-parenting, the debates about what happens next, treatment of each other as peers.  I thought that social drama was significant, interesting and was fun to watch.


You make some very interesting and valid points. While I enjoyed season 4, I felt it was uneven, though mostly because the plot with Greenes was poorly resolved and the harvested eggs subplot seemed to come out of nowhere. On the other hand and as I've mentioned before, I feel that Bill's character arc remains both compelling and fairly believable. 
 
I read somewhere recently, though I can't remember where, that Bill's story is basically the creation of a villain. I don't know that I'd go quite that far, but like the Godfather Part II, Big Love has been documenting it's protagonist's corruption and fall. I remain convinced that the show will end with Bill installed as the new prophet of Juniper Creek, and think that much of the reckless behavior surrounding his election bid (outing themselves, Margie lying to INS, etc.) are character flaws, not writing flaws, designed to push the characters to Juniper Creek as a last refuge. 
 
I'm certain Bill will be removed from office, and that Home Plus, and perhaps Margie's business, will be ruined. This leaves the casino, but with new enemies in both the tribe, and in their political backers, I wonder how long they'll be able to hold onto this as well. 
 
You mention the idea of exploring polygamy as a social taboo, and I too would be interested in a show like that. On the other hand, one of the most interesting aspect's of Bill's character is that he genuinely believes in "the principle." Unlike Roman or the Greenes, who all seem to be egomaniacs knowingly perpetrating a fraud, Bill believes he is righteous.
 
The show you describe would be an interesting take on the concept of polygamy, to be sure. But because of the religious element, it would impossible to reconcile with these characters. I would argue, too, that the reason Bill and his wives seem to be having marital problems is that while they all entered their relationships without coercion, we've learned that ultimately they do not believe "the principle" in the same way that Bill does. Their recent conflicts are not about polygamy as a concept, but ultimately about differences of faith. 
 
In addition to the religious element, I believe there is one other aspect of this season which bears mention. The creators of Big Love, Will Scheffer and Mark V. Olsen are openly gay. I don't think it's a coincidence that Bill's arc has been, in part, about living out in the open, and the corrosive nature of the closet.
 
Now perhaps this isn't the take on polygamy that you want to see. And maybe the show you've proposed would be an even more provocative exploration of plural marriage. But Bill's story is about more than his relationship with his wives. For me, the complexities of Bill's faith and his desire to escape from his closeted lifestyle remain compelling and watchable. 

Edited by Tim Gerdes - 3/9/10 at 9:55am
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post #43 of 45
3/9/10 at 10:46am
I think I side with Matt and Mikah.  I really liked this show when we had wives meetings and an attempt to make this odd lifestyle work despite the difficult logistics (sharing nights, child care, etc.).

There were secrets, and conflicts, and the problem of living closeted...and, of course, the shadow of Roman hanging over them.  But, at the core, the 'family' (not a traditional one, but a family) stuck together and pressed on.  And, Bill was the leader of that family and he cared about them.

The two big things that were missing this (horrible) season were 1) Bill's understanding and selflessness.  Sure, he often got off the rails, but he always came back to the family and found his way.  This season and part of last he really became tunnel-visioned and only cared about his own thing.  Utterly selfish and someone I could no longer root for.  2) In a word, love.  In the past, despite conflicts, secrets, etc. there was always this bond of love with the wives and Bill..but, especially with the wives.  Despite their fights, they always figured out things together, as a team.  This year?  They're all on their own, doing their own thing.  It was simply not fun to watch.

Is it realistic?  Maybe.  Is it on purpose?  I dunno...perhaps it is.  But, it is NOT what I originally enjoyed about the show.  It's no different from any other bickering, backstabbing soap opera.  And, it's not the characters I came to enjoy prior to this.

I certainly hope that the challenges and attacks from the outside make the Hendricksen's bond again next season.  Looking at them on those steps gives promise.  But, if it continues to spiral in the direction this season went I won't be a fan for much longer.
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post #44 of 45
3/9/10 at 12:48pm
What a Custerfluck this season has been!
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post #45 of 45
3/9/10 at 12:56pm
Thread Starter 
You had mentioned above the fact that the season lacked "Love".. you know, I think that may be the best description.

I was thinking about how good Chloe Sveginy has been in this, and I was reminded of the story in the first season of how she became the second wife.  That nearing death, battling cancer, Barb and Bill took her in to help her in her last days, and when she recovered, they were too close to let her go, and decided that it was a sign from god for them to follow "The Principle".

It was a really solid, understandable backstory that connected the two together.  While you may have moral disagreements, it was the kind of story the audience could feel for.  And then, they could also realize that she was a character who had a much different background, and that "The Principle" was always part of her life and plan, whle it was a struggle for Barb.

Barb's struggle continued as a member of the community.  The story was good; it was that they had accepted each other, and had fought for their way of life against opposition on both sides.  It was a show about walking a tight rope.  And with Roman Grant, it had a real villain that was understandable.  It also made it clear that they were not "the bad guys" that society felt they were, but Roman sure was, and they would do anything to get away from them.  Most of their show was about the struggle to get away from the idea of the compound.

It's what made this season so bad, that the "love" factor, the "us against the world" angle went into a complete spiral. 

And, as far as realistic, the show has piled on so many crazy situations that are impossible to buy.  You could buy Roman as a canniving bad guy who twisted money and those around him to make life hell.  But nothing Roman did struck you as beyond the possible or completely phony.  This season stretched everything into ridiculousness.  How they whipped out a forced IVF of crossbred children in a single hour may be one of the stupidest plots ever on TV.  Except for the fact that they were busted for smuggling parrots into Mexico for money by the Greenes.. who they later hacked the arm off of in a clean slice from an elderly woman with a dull knife..  look, I've lived on a farm.  You can't even chop a pig in one slice like that, and the bones aren't near as thick.

The show just lost the angle of "Love", family standing up for each other..  it drove into "these people are all loonies"  which just isn't entertaining.  It's almost as though Big Love acquired some of the writers from "Weeds".  And what works on Weeds doesn't necessarily fly on Big Love.. two different concepts.
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Gear mentioned in this thread:

Big Love - The Complete Second Season
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Big Love - The Complete First Season
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Big Love: The Complete Third Season
$22.94 at
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