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Lost: Season Six - Page 24

post #691 of 1895
3/20/10 at 1:35pm


Quote:
Originally Posted by Holadem View Post

Is it possible that there is no sickness, and that Rousseau's team essentially turned on one another because of some form of PTSD? They endured a storm, washed up to the Island in a lifeboat, where they encountered a Korean man who later literally vanished into thin air in front of them, and were pursued by a nightmarish smoke monster who tore out their buddy's arm -- much of this in a matter of hours. That's enough to make many anyone question their sanity.

--
H

Alright, please don't take this the wrong way, but now I'm totally confused with your feelings on getting answers.  On one hand, you say that people (I guess this could be taken to mean people who aren't you...) are worried major things won't get answered, and that one such major thing is "the sickness."  Then on the other hand, you go and put forth a completely believable and legit explanation for that major question--one that wouldn't even require the show to focus on it in the least.

Again, I'm just confused more than anything.  Do you want *all* major questions answered by the show directly (for example, Jack would say in some throw away scene, that the sickness was really PTSD), or is it enough that some answers are implied or can be inferred (ie we're given *all* the clues, but someone has to put them together, just as you did with your example)?
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post #692 of 1895
3/20/10 at 3:30pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holadem View Post

Is it possible that there is no sickness, and that Rousseau's team essentially turned on one another because of some form of PTSD?
 


Until Sayid got infected, that's what I would have thought too. Now that Sayid is infected, it doesn't seem like it's in anyone's head.

I think the quarantine warning on the inside of the hatch door or the vaccine that Charlie gave to Claire back in S2 are unrelated Dharma mind games though. At the very least, they seem to be separate from being infected by the 'darkness' that has infected Sayid and presumably Rousseau's crew.
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post #693 of 1895
3/20/10 at 3:51pm


Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Dial View Post


Alright, please don't take this the wrong way, but now I'm totally confused with your feelings on getting answers.  On one hand, you say that people (I guess this could be taken to mean people who aren't you...) are worried major things won't get answered, and that one such major thing is "the sickness."  Then on the other hand, you go and put forth a completely believable and legit explanation for that major question--one that wouldn't even require the show to focus on it in the least.
 

LOL. I understand your confusion, but it's pretty simple really: That explanation for the disease occurred to me between my last two post! :-) Really, I am just throwing it out there, that's why I put it as a question. I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about it. All this came to mind because I noticed a re-run of "This Place is Death" (deals with Rousseau's arrival, Charlotte's death and Locke's departure) sitting on my DVR and watched it yesterday. For all I know, there are things on the show that directly contradict that theory. IF nothing does, then yeah, it's good enough for me.

Quote:
Again, I'm just confused more than anything.  Do you want *all* major questions answered by the show directly (for example, Jack would say in some throw away scene, that the sickness was really PTSD), or is it enough that some answers are implied or can be inferred (ie we're given *all* the clues, but someone has to put them together, just as you did with your example)?

For the major stuff, (I realize that what is "major" can be relative) I'd prefer the former. But really not by much: Ill take resolutions any way I can get them.

--
H

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post #694 of 1895
3/20/10 at 6:04pm
I find the only questions at this point I really want answers to are
- Who are Jacob and MiB?
- Why are they on the island?

I previously had many other questions, but after the scene of Jacob and MiB on the beach, everything changed for me; The smaller questions no longer mattered. I think if I get the answers to those two questions, I can fit everything else in reasonably enough. But the interesting things is... I had to ask myself how I'll feel if I don't get the answers to those questions. I think (but I'm not sure), that I'm open enough that I'll call the series a success anyway. My strong preference is to get those answers, but it isn't a requirement.
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post #695 of 1895
3/20/10 at 6:33pm


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ockeghem View Post

^^^

 

Thanks Travis.  I figured that with Ben and all of his planning (including having Juliet infiltrate Jack's group under false pretenses), and with Juliet having a reason to kill Ana Lucia (assuming she knew that Ana killed Goodwin), that it was at least a possibility.  And she probably did know this, given that the Others know just about everything about everyone.  BTW, I heard the name of 'Jacob' tonight (maybe for the first time).  If it occurred in an earlier episode, I could easily have missed it.

You're saying this most recent episode is the first time you remember hearing the name Jacob being referred to?
I'm confused have you watched every episode up until now?
The character has been in a handful of eps now and has been spoken directly to by name a bunch of times, including the times that he appears to Hurley.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Holadem View Post

Is it possible that there is no sickness, and that Rousseau's team essentially turned on one another because of some form of PTSD? They endured a storm, washed up to the Island in a lifeboat, where they encountered a Korean man who later literally vanished into thin air in front of them, and were pursued by a nightmarish smoke monster who tore out their buddy's arm -- much of this in a matter of hours. That's enough to make many anyone question their sanity.

--
H

what is PTSD?
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post #696 of 1895
3/20/10 at 7:03pm
The biggest question to me is still the same as it's been for several seasons.
Why are everyone connected to one or several other characters on the island?

They've made a point of this since day one, either a fairly straight forward connection (like Jack meeting Desmond while running) or an elaborate six degrees of separation type connection.
But all of those off-island pre-crash connections has got to mean something, otherwise they've gone to great lengths to throw us a curve ball.
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post #697 of 1895
3/20/10 at 7:15pm
PTSD = Post-traumatic Stress Disorder.  What used to be called "shell shock."  I don't buy it as an explanation for Rousseau, et. al.


Quote:
most of the finales are consumed with getting one group from point A to point B while another simultaneously ensures that some button is pushed or some antenna is enabled/disabled, and Kate shuttles back and forth doing her "I am going back with you / you're not going by yourself" thing and blah blah blah... I expect the series finale to be similar.
 

I'm not sure why. The entire point of the season "finales" is that they weren't finales.   They were the last reel of the Saturday morning serial, which ended the current chapter while at the same time putting the heroes in an apparently inescapable jam to give us a reason to come back next week.  But the last chapter of those serials did not follow the pattern of the 11 preceding episodes.  Buck Rogers beats "Killer" Kane.  Flash Gordon overcomes Ming the Merciless and returns to Earth with Dale and Dr. Zarkov.

TV season "finales" are intended to get people to tune in next year. 

Well now there is no next year.  I'm confident that the series finale will NOT resemble the season finales anymore than the last line in a given chapter of a book resembles the last chapter of that book.  They won't resemble one another because they are different things intended to perform different tasks. 

Quote:
 
You're saying this most recent episode is the first time you remember hearing the name Jacob being referred to?

Actually I'm pretty sure that when he said he had first heard of Jacob "tonight" he was referring to having watched an episode from a previous season on DVD. 

Quote:
 
Also, a few of the answers might solve more than one questions, which will also speed things up

I think Josh is exactly right here.  Finding out the origin of MiB and Jacob will go a long way towards explaining their conflict, and their interactions with the people on the island.  It will also explain their powers.  This, in turn, might explain all of the apparitions on the island.  I suspect that once we know the basic conflict and its meaning a lot of stuff is going to become not only clear, but obvious in retrospect - thus dispensing with the need for explanations.  Think about the end of The Usual Suspects or Memento.  How much time did the filmmakers need to not only explain the mystery, but completely change our understanding of the whole rest of the movie? 

Yeah, if they had to give us a lecture explaining every plot point with charts and graphs and 27 8-by-10 color glossy pictures with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was, they might need several episodes to clear everything up.  But that wouldn't be a drama.  In drama you show rather than tell, and you let what's come before explain itself in light of revelations at the end.  And that's what I expect the Lost folks to do. 

Regards,

Joe

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post #698 of 1895
3/20/10 at 7:18pm

Quote:

Actually I'm pretty sure that when he said he had first heard of Jacob "tonight" he was referring to having watched an episode from a previous season on DVD. 
Well I hope I haven't ruined anything then for him, I know he's been watching the previous seasons but I thought that was just a rewatch.

Also we ahve to assume anyone who isn't caught up, being in here might have stuff spoiled

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post #699 of 1895
3/20/10 at 7:45pm


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph DeMartino View Post

I'm not sure why. The entire point of the season "finales" is that they weren't finales.   They were the last reel of the Saturday morning serial, which ended the current chapter while at the same time putting the heroes in an apparently inescapable jam to give us a reason to come back next week.  But the last chapter of those serials did not follow the pattern of the 11 preceding episodes.  Buck Rogers beats "Killer" Kane.  Flash Gordon overcomes Ming the Merciless and returns to Earth with Dale and Dr. Zarkov.

TV season "finales" are intended to get people to tune in next year. 

Well now there is no next year.  I'm confident that the series finale will NOT resemble the season finales anymore than the last line in a given chapter of a book resembles the last chapter of that book.  They won't resemble one another because they are different things intended to perform different tasks. 
 

They is no reason they should not resemble one another in the way described, since what I described is not the really the stuff that brings people back the following year, and therefore needn't be limited to finales other than the last one. Fact is, we don't know, and while you're relying on the different nature of the last episode to support why they might depart from their pattern, I will rely on the precedent established in 5 seasons to support the possibility of a plot-heavy, goal-oriented finale.

Quote: Magnus_M
The biggest question to me is still the same as it's been for several seasons.
Why are everyone connected to one or several other characters on the island?

They've made a point of this since day one, either a fairly straight forward connection (like Jack meeting Desmond while running) or an elaborate six degrees of separation type connection.
But all of those off-island pre-crash connections has got to mean something, otherwise they've gone to great lengths to throw us a curve ball.

I consider this matter resolved, ever since we were told (and shown) that Jacob manipulates people into ending up on the Island. Whatever he did to bring them there has brought their lives in one another's.

I think Ockeghem has watched (and re-watched) about 3 seasons of LOST but is somehow comfortable participating in being spoiled about the rest. I find that downright criminal, but to each his own.

--
H
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post #700 of 1895
3/20/10 at 7:50pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holadem View Post

I think Ockeghem has watched (and re-watched) about 3 seasons of LOST but is somehow comfortable participating in being spoiled about the rest. I find that downright criminal, but to each his own.

 


Me too. Ockegham, I love ya, buddy but please stop reading this thread before the series begins its run to the end!
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post #701 of 1895
3/20/10 at 8:29pm
Guys, no worries.  Being spoiled about certain aspects of any show doesn't take away from my enjoyment of it.  I love reading this thread, and frankly, I don't understand much of what I'm reading -- Jacob, the Temple, the MiB, etc.  What Joseph mentioned above (and which was echoed by a few others) is correct.  I have seen only the first three seasons and am watching them again before moving on to season four.

Tonight, we watched four episodes from season three, disc 5: Catch-22, D.O.C., The Brig, and Man Behind the Curtain.  Fabulous episodes and superb writing all around.  I had forgotten that 'Sawyer' meets Sawyer.  What a great scene that was!

I have two questions: Why doesn't Richard age?  Is he the MiB?
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post #702 of 1895
3/20/10 at 9:12pm

Quote:
 
I have two questions: Why doesn't Richard age?  Is he the MiB?

1) Those of us watching "live" should learn that in detail next week.  He has already said that Jacob gave him a "gift".

2)  No, he is not the Man in Black. MiB is a completely different character who has interacted with Richard.

Regards,

Joe 

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post #703 of 1895
3/21/10 at 7:57am
I've watched since season one but I just can't seem to get into this season. I'll continue to watch until the end but not because I am really enjoying it anymore but rather out of a sense of completing something I have started. Hopefully the presentation of the story will get better in the next few episodes.    
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post #704 of 1895
3/21/10 at 8:23am

Quote:
I'll continue to watch until the end but not because I am really enjoying it anymore but rather out of a sense of completing something I have started.
 


Agreed.  I used to be SO excited watching ever episode.  Now I am just bored.  I just keep waiting and hoping that the writers have something up their sleeve.  I feel very much like the Rose character did last season when she kind of rolled her eyes as the group was off to disarm the nuke.  Really?  You're going to try and steal another sub?  Locke is the smoke monster now?  The group is split up and running all over the island again?  There is yet ANOTHER group on the island to contend with?  Really? 
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post #705 of 1895
3/21/10 at 9:19am
Count me in as well in the group that is watching, but mainly out of a morbid sense of obligation to see it all play out.

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post #706 of 1895
3/21/10 at 12:01pm
I'm a huge fan of the show but so far this season I've been more bored by it than excited - I'm actually considering just watching the Blu-ray home video versions in August. Maybe if I start with the Pilot episode everything will make more sense. I think the network has done some damage to the show by putting in long gaps between seasons over the years, the writer's strike shortening episode counts, endless commercials, etc. It was such a pleasure being able to watch back-to-back eps on DVD that re-arranging my life around a TV show for an hour on Tuesdays just isn't as much fun.
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post #707 of 1895
3/21/10 at 12:31pm
 There is this fancy new invention called a DVR...  .

Though for me personally, Lost is one of the few shows that I have to watch live.  I'm a little surprised at the negative reactions to this season so far, I've thought it's mostly been superb throughout.
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post #708 of 1895
3/21/10 at 12:51pm


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_H View Post

 There is this fancy new invention called a DVR...  .

Though for me personally, Lost is one of the few shows that I have to watch live.  I'm a little surprised at the negative reactions to this season so far, I've thought it's mostly been superb throughout.

The acting is always top notch.  With only 8 episodes left though, they are still creating more questions, than they are answering.  That is a turnoff for me.  I still enjoy it, but if the final episodes are anything less than utterly amazing I will be upset. 

Lost is its own worst enemy.

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post #709 of 1895
3/21/10 at 12:58pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan^H View Post

...if the final episodes are anything less than utterly amazing I will be upset. 

 


If you're going to be upset over "anything less than utterly amazing", you probably should just stop watching now because it seems like you're bound to be dissapointed.
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post #710 of 1895
3/21/10 at 1:22pm


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan^H View Post


The acting is always top notch.  With only 8 episodes left though, [...]

Ten episodes.
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post #711 of 1895
3/21/10 at 1:35pm
LOST is the perfect example of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" show.  It seems no matter what the sprint to the finish/finale reveals, about half of the viewers will be disappointed, while the other half will love it.  To be honest, I wouldn't have it any other way.

However, sometimes, the suggestions people have for shows (not just LOST, but other big shows like BSG and 24) end up sounding like this sketch from the very excellent comedy series That Mitchell and Webb Look :)
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post #712 of 1895
3/21/10 at 2:46pm


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph DeMartino View Post



1) Those of us watching "live" should learn that in detail next week.  He has already said that Jacob gave him a "gift".

2)  No, he is not the Man in Black. MiB is a completely different character who has interacted with Richard.

Regards,

Joe 

 

Joseph,

Thank you.  Much appreciated. :)

Tonight and tomorrow night, we should be concluding season three.  This really is such a wonderful series.  I am looking forward to seeing Through the Looking Glass again.
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post #713 of 1895
3/21/10 at 3:24pm
This may have been posted before (by me or someone else) but even so, it's worth posting again. ;-) 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1PAB6Sgdp8




--
H
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post #714 of 1895
3/21/10 at 4:37pm


Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR View Post



If you're going to be upset over "anything less than utterly amazing", you probably should just stop watching now because it seems like you're bound to be dissapointed.
No.  I have faith the final episodes will be great.

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post #715 of 1895
3/22/10 at 10:35am
MIB & Jacob = Cain & Abel ???
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post #716 of 1895
3/22/10 at 11:22am
I think Jacob and Esau are a better parallel, and not just because one of the Lost characters is actually named "Jacob", but sure, Lost is probably supposed to resonate with Cain and Abel as well.  But when it comes to "MIB & Jacob equal Cain & Abel?", I have to disagree.  As I've indicated a number of times in this thread I think that many stories, myths, legends and archetypes (not to mentions movies, TV shows and comic books) inform Lost, but I don't think the writers are doing anything as simple-minded as retelling any of them in another setting and with different names. 

Now, one obvious area where Cain & Abel would seem to trump Jacob & Esau is the whole "one of them gets killed" thing, but this is Lost where - despite the title of a certain episode - dead is decidely not dead.  In Genesis chapter 4, nary a peep is heard out of Abel after Cain bumps him off - which is what you generally expect when someone is killed.  The focus of the story becomes Cain and his guilt and his suffering.  He becomes a wanderer on the Earth, and the famous "mark of Cain" is placed on him so that others will not kill him, rather than to identify him as a murderer.  None of this tracks with Lost, where MiB seems to be a prisoner who is held on the island and prevented from wandering the Earth.  And despite the knife to the heart and the instant cremation, Jacob is still about as much a part of the story as ever, interacting with Hurley and indirectly with Jack and Miles.  So the rivalrly continues, even if largely played out through proxies, which is closer to Genesis chapters 35 through 50 than Genesis chapter 4.  (Remembering always the caveat that I don't think any of this is intended to track exactly with any part of the Bible - or any other source or influence..  Quite apart from anything else, it would bleed off a lot of suspense since anyone who knows the Biblical stories would know how the Lost versions were going to end.)
 
Regards,

Joe
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post #717 of 1895
3/22/10 at 11:31am
Another vote for watching it because I feel obligated after the investment of time already put in.  I still like parts of the show from this year.  I just don't get the sense that I'm seeing a fitting conclusion to what came before.  It's more like the writers started with the concept of telling us about the characters through flashbacks, then to change it up used flash forwards, and then said "we need another gimmick... eureka!  Flash sideways!" and forgot that they also need to tell a cohesive story for this season.  Until they show that the flash sideways are somehow linked to what is happening on the island, whenever they cut to them I feel like it's a waste of time.  The writers of this show are good and I am hoping I am wrong on that point.  I am also hoping that whatever contractual obligations pulled Eko and Ana Lucia out of the cast from a few seasons ago, are resolved so that they can be in some of the scenes from this year.  Eko was my favorite character on the show.
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post #718 of 1895
3/22/10 at 11:51am
It is important to remember that Jacob and MiB represent black and white.

It is even MORE important that Jacob is black on the left side and white on the right side, while Mib is black on the right side, and white on the left side.  
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post #719 of 1895
3/22/10 at 11:58am
This season has been a mixed bag for me so far.  We're eight episodes in, and I have far, far more questions than I did going into it.  So far, we've been introduced to several new characters, and all of the main characters are still mostly in the dark about the nature of the Island and the reasons for their having been initially drawn there.  That said, I'm trying to be patient.  I had expectations that weren't in line with what the writers had in mind.  I wanted to see at least some of our favorite characters, at this point, blazing a trail through the narrative rather than being metaphorically blindfolded and led around by the nose by the mystery. 

One perspective that acts as a counterpoint to my frustration is the idea that LOST is delving deeply into heady concepts about Faith.  Since (hopefully) a major theme on LOST is faith versus reason, we may get a satisfying conclusion to why all the main characters are kept in the dark so consistently, and why Jack's leap of faith in "Dr. Linus" is so important. 

In "The Dynamics of Faith," Paul Tillich states that Faith is not just a process of intellectual inquiry, but an act of acceptance, and most importantly, surrender.  Faith is also the freedom to simply choose to believe in something.  Presuming that the Island itself - not Jacob - is the ultimate catalyst for the characters' respective paths, then adopting Tillich's ideas of Faith precludes that the Island would be unconcerned with the characters ever uncovering it's 'true' nature.  Instead, the real 'ultimate concern' (a term coined by Tillich) would be that the characters choose in the absense of hard evidence, paths that bring them closer to finding themselves.  The immediate consequence of Jack lighting the dynamite in "Dr. Linus" is inconsequential - it's the deeper ramifications of his CHOICE to surrender that are important.

The Man in Black, on the other hand, tells his followers that there is no meaning, no deeper purpose, to the Island.  This, in essnse, deprives the characters in MIBs camp of any sense that their actions on the Island hold any real significance.  While promising hard, concrete answers (some of which may be obfuscation at best), he also diminishes their capacity for seeing their actions as important/significant.  

LOST's 'ultimate concern' (as I see it) is a focus on their struggles with accepting things they don't understand and surrendering with choices that force them down one path or another (the theme of Season 6 as I see it, by the way).  I wouldn't be surprised if Season Six mostly eschews the scientific or historical origins of the Island in favor of showing characters finding redemption, regardless of what their ultimate logical or scientific understand of the Island ends up being.
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post #720 of 1895
3/22/10 at 12:02pm

Quote:
I just don't get the sense that I'm seeing a fitting conclusion to what came before.   

Maybe that's because you aren't watching the conclusion.  You're watching the dozen or so episodes that lead up to the conclusion.

Frankly I don't think your comments about the writers "needing a new gimmick" require much comment.  The flashbacks weren't a gimmick, neither are the other non-linear elements of the show.  They're part of the show's style and its narrative approach and they have always been (clearly) connected to the rest of the events, usually by illuminating or commenting on the "contemporary" action.  And that's just on watching them the first time through.  In retrospect I expect they'll be even more obviously important to the story.


Quote:
Until they show that the flash sideways are somehow linked to what is happening on the island, whenever they cut to them I feel like it's a waste of time.  

Right.  The writers have introduced a whole second timeline, and in the end we're going to find out that it has no connection to the rest of the plot and was just their way of wasting our time, pissing us off and stretching the story out.  Let's have a show of hands who - after watching this show for all these seasons, honestly believes that the writers, the producers and the network are not only such untalented hacks, but that they're this stupid.  I haven't seen any evidence to support the idea, but maybe I'm missing something.  

The problem isn't that the flash-sideways segments are unconnected to the main thread (as noted they are already connected thematically and in terms of character, and often parallel events in the other reality), it is that we haven't (yet) been shown how they are connected.  Well, we haven't been shown why everybody is on the island, what the nature of Jacob and MiB's conflict is, or what role the main characters are to play in all of this, either.  Do you think maybe, just maybe, that when we learn those things we'll also learn how the two timelines are related?  And do you think that maybe we won't find those out until very near the end, because otherwise the big two-hour finale is going to be one huge anti-climax?  

From the beginning this show has divided fans into two camps (much as the island has divided the people who come there )

On the one hand, you have the "show us the cards, get on with the plot, who cares about all this character crap?" school that experiences the show as a mystery to be solved or a journey to be completed, where the goal or the answer is all.  

On the other hand, you have the "it isn't the destination, it's the journey" school who enjoy taking the scenic route, don't mind the detours, and experience the show as a rich tapestry where each episode is to be enjoyed for its own sake - not mined for clues to the "main plot" with everything else discarded (or fast-forwarded through) or derided as "a waste of time."  

All I can say is that the show has been a lot less frustrating for one group than for the other.  I also suspect that one group will be able to watch the show many more times with pleasure than the other.  There is a certain kind of formulaic mystery story where plot is everything and characters, mood and style mean little.  These can be very enjoyable to read, and when I was a kid I used to read great stacks of the things.  But they are rarely worth re-reading (unless so much time passes that you forget who stole the jewels or killed the duke) because the mystery is all they have to offer, and that evaporates when you reach the last page.  Those who see Lost as simply a puzzle to be solved will be satisfied when it is over (or not), but won't have much reason to revisit it because they will "know" the "answer" that was the show's only point as far as they are concerned. 

Regards,

Joe
 
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