A few words about...™ Howards End -- in Blu-ray - Page 6

With the sharpness turned on, isn't any amount of sharpness added by the TV an 'artificial' sharpness in that it is merely a processed-enhanced sharpness? I'm starting to appreciate the idea of sharpness being turned off. Should sharpness always be turned off?

 

Warnerbro, Criterion said they did have a lot of complaints about the disc. Even with half of the sharpness I used to have turned on it is much more watchable and seems to have more of the film grain rather than the noise as some are seeing. I e-mailed them on their website and they were very generous in offering to replace the disc with any other disc in their catalog, but I am now happy with the Howards End disc after having made some adjustments. I'm not saying it's perfect, but much better than the DVD set. Just my experience.

Douglas, yes those are my calibration settings that I never change. Sharpness on Min/0 is key, as anything above that adds fake information to the video. If you pull up a sharpness pattern with DVE or Spears & Munsil, you will see halos, etc. If you're used to it higher, it will take some  time to get used to it, as the proper image will look softer but more accurate. Same thing with the backlight. I have a Sony 350 stashed away from when I moved that I still haven't unpacked (it's for the bedroom set), and when I take it out I will try it hooked up to the 55EX500 to see if there are any differences. If so, then clearly the player is doing something as well, and only a firmware update will fix that.

I posted my reply before seeing this. Yes, this is true from my experience. I don't think I've ever seen a display device (CRT, DLP, LCD, Plasma, etc.) that wasn't optimal with the sharpness on min or 0. There may be a handful, but by and large sharpness on min/0 is the way to go. You can easily check this with a pattern as I said above.

Why do you say that turning the sharpness all the way down defeats the purpose of HD? I don't see any correlation. See my thoughts on sharpness above.

Douglas, do NOT get a replacement disc from Criterion, it will simply be the same exact thing. Criterion said they would not be revisiting Howards End, in spite of the countless complaints about the disc. Instead they released the DVD version earlier this year and it is gorgeous - the grid, the silent film like flicker of the opening titles, the blown out shadows - all corrected for the DVD, spine #488. Colors are even richer. Detail is still very good and in some shots more realistic than the blu ray, which looked like a chalky Xerox copy. The Tetris-like grid in the shadows on the blu ray, I have since noticed, seems to be generated by the sound (but does not appear in the black bars at the top and bottom, which by the way are lighter than normal).

 

Criterion got all these kudos for their stunning release of The Thin Red Line on blu ray, but that's how all blu rays should look. Howards End, made a mere six years before TTRL, is unwatchable. Criterion's release of Lang's M is vastly superior and vastly older. Universal did the honorable thing by recalling, correcting and replacing their botched releases of Gladiator and Saving Private Ryan. Despite their other successes, Criterion have failed with Howards End. Time seems to be proving this now that the first giddy flush of its premiere on blu ray has long passed.

I haven't seen the BD of this movie, so I will not comment on its quality (or lack thereof).  However, I believe Douglas was saying Criterion offered him any title in their BD catalogue as a replacement, not simply a replacement disc for the same film.  This does not directly address the problems raised in discussion in this thread with respect to Howards End, but it does put a bit of a different (more positive) light on Criterion's customer service, in all fairness.

 

Gladiator was never recalled. Universal did do a new transfer, and offer free replacements to people who had purchased the original. But, they did not recall the copies that were in the stores, or being sold online. That is why many of us have still not bought a replacement...can't trust the online orders or find one of the new ones in stores.
 

Really? I don't personally own Gladiator but know people how had sent their old disc in and were given a new one with the supposed "new" transfer.  http://www.dvdtown.com/news/paramount-creates-exchange-program-for-us-gladiator-blu-ray-release/7839

 

And Criterion never offered me another title, at the time I was told I could only get Howards End replaced with another Howards End.

Universal replaced any purchased copy of Gladiator with the new transfer, but did not recall the old stock from the stores or places like Amazon. The old copies are still on many store shelves. Here in Canada, I still have not seen any of the "yellow" replacement discs. I'll probably wait till I go south next March and try to pick one up then.

 

Not to beat a dead horse into the ground until there is nothing left but hide and hooves...

 

It dawned on me last evening to try something I hadn't before with my wretched Howards End blu ray: I deliberately set my player at 720p, then played the movie. The grain was still there, but the Tetris-like pale white blocks, the flicker, the screen door grid were gone, cleaned up. The image was softer than blu ray but sharper than the DVD. The color was too cartoonish, but the image was at least solid. Also, there was a 5% crop on the image so the left and right sides of the frame were slightly trimmed, giving the film close to a 2.20:1 aspect ratio rather than its original 2.35:1. The film was also framed for 2.20 for the 70mm prints that were made for select theaters, so nothing of any importance is lost.

 

So there we have it, a setting that makes this BD almost watchable. 720p obviously is masking the problems or not allowing whatever the information is that is causing the messy image to leak through.

Yes, but Sean I refuse to have a 720p picture when this is supposed to be 1080p.  Criterion just needs to redo this disc, period.  After what I saw on the netflixed disc, I won't be buying this one until I hear the problem is fixed.

 

It's too bad, as I love it as much as you do. 

I don't blame you, Patty, for not wanting to see it in 720p. Switching over does clear up the wretched grid, but the image is still too pale. And 720p crops the sides by about 5% so you don't get the entire 2.35:1 aspect ratio. More interesting, though, I discovered these comments on a thread over at Criterionforum:


"I just watched this (on Blu-Ray) and will say I do enjoy it, though granted I like novels that read exactly like this.

My main question though is if anyone else had a sort of checkered grain during the film at all? I found it happened on large single colored backgrounds mostly but sometimes over entire shots, like the slow-motion shot of the character Charles being brought hand-cuffed into a police carriage.

I'm trouble-shooting the problem right now trying to figure out if it's the disc, the transfer, my player, my TV, etc. Any similar situations?"

----

"Your eyes are not playing tricks on you. I noticed the same thing and hopped online to look at reviews of the Blu-Ray. While a lot of reviews actually praised the film's transfer, some were as disappointed as you and I."

---

A serious problem unaddressed by Criterion. And with this, I put this poor old horse out to pasture!

I watched this a couple of nights ago, having purchased the disc last year. I was aware of the reports of problems from last year but I hadn't remembered what they were specifically.

Straight away I noticed an unnatural grain effect in dark scenes - definitely digital noise of some sort. After observing this for a while, I felt that it must be due to a poor transfer from film - it seemed like the picture was struggling to render grain in low light situations, which I assume must be crappy conversion software.

Daylight scenes were for the most part fine, with no unnatural noise - although I had a feeling there was a bit of unnatural sharpening at times.

The noisy dark scenes didn't ruin my enjoyment of the film - bloody great film in fact - but it was distracting to me at times. The closing credits really highlighted the problem - the black background looked kind of brown and fuzzy, and it looked lik esomeone was shning a torch on the screen.

I have a Sony 4o-inch Bravia LCD and an Australian Panasonic BD-60 player, modded to be region-free. I also have a Sony bluray player but can't play region A discs on it. Might try Sean's suggestion of running it 720p to see how it looks.

Almost picked this up during the current B&N 50% off sale.  Glad I didn't.  (I missed all this back upon release.)  Sad.

How bad or noticeable the issue is seems to depend a lot on your display and/or player.

 

Most of us have not experienced anything nearly as bad as Sean has (based on the snapshot photos he took of his display).  Some of us are probably seeing what Evan described above, which sounds a fair bit like what I saw on my Panny BD60 as well.

 

So YMMV w/ this release. 

 

For myself, I don't really regret owning it considering the low price I paid for it in a previous B&N sale (w/ a nice coupon on top).  Don't know that I'd be willing to spend any more than what I did though...

 

_Man_

 

I reviewed it using the PS3 and a 56" DLP television and saw none of the major issues with the transfer that have been discussed. If I get some time this week (may have jury duty on Thursday so I don't know what my schedule will be), I will take the disc out and rewatch it using a different player and on the 58" plasma TV I got in January. Maybe some of these issues will be more noticeable on it.

Viewing on a 55" Samsung LED and Sony S570, not seeing issues either. Image isn't perfect by any means, but certainly passable and not distracting on my equipment.

 

This is one of the first titles I watched recently after upgrading to a 55" screen from a 42", given all the controversy surrounding it. Still not seeing a major problem. Night scenes seem fine; maybe the blacks are a bit off in a few scenes. It must be a player or a display issue or both. I can't understand how the image I am seeing would be the cause of all this debate.

My set up is very simple: 50" Panasonic Plasma Viera and a Sony Blu-ray player, HDMI connection. Though no other BD I own has a problem with my monitor and/or player, this one disc from Criterion is clearly having a hell of a time in my house. All other BDs, again, look stunning and I spent hours calibrating my monitor to my tastes, which lean towards film since that is my background as an editor. When plopped in and played, the Howards End disc is unwatchable. Experimenting, I switched my Viera over to 720p and it looks damned good, though with a 5% crop to the left and right; also, it is still too bright and the sharpening done to it makes it look more like a TV movie than a theatrical feature. Still, I prefer the DVD, released after the BD - I get the full 2.35 and the color and image detail are almost identical to the BD, if a bit softer. Actually, the DVD color is richer, the BD seems too pale, even the shadows.

A curious phenom. Some day, when all the wars are over, we'll find out what's causing this for some viewers. I've never had a disc react this way. Perhaps Howards End is haunted.

This only compounds mystery.

Normally, I would think this would be the explanation for some people experiencing problems while others aren't - that some (batches) got scanned properly while others didn't. However, my original 'batch' theory got shot down by Vincent, in his post #44, where he writes that he experienced problems with the disc when played on his Mother's system, but it looked ok when played later on his own.
I can only assume, then, that all discs are affected, and that some players are capable of resolving the problems, which of course is no excuse for a bad pressing. (In this context, I mentioned once how a top of the line laserdisc player resolved a pronounced shimmering issue on all the Brosnan 'Thomas Crown' laserdiscs.

Same here. Consummatum est.

I used a Samsung 6900 Blu-ray player tonight (58" plasma TV) and the movie played as I remembered it with only a scene or two in shadows with slightly brackish color and a slightly digital appearance but nothing whatsoever like the problems described earlier.

I admit it. I was so upset that KWAIDAN didn't win the Amazon poll that I created a Howards End Blu-ray Voodoo doll and I stuck it with pins.

I confess.... I voted for HE in the Amazon Poll, and within three or four months the Blu-ray was released. It's MY fault! I made Criterion rush the Blu-ray to release. Good thing it wasn't Kwaidan!

Seriously, I would love to stick more than pins into the Howards End BD, perhaps maybe a red hot iron.

I watched Howards End over the weekend using a Panasonic DMP-BD85 into a Mit. "65 RPTV 1080i I did not see any problems as described in earlier posts
I thought it looked and sounded fine.

I haven't read every single post, but the problems with the disc are weirdly similar to ones I had a couple of years ago. I purchased a copy of Patriot Games (yes, yes, I know, no comparison to Howards End, agreed), and saw very similar problems on the disc I purchased, strange blocking, shifts in contrast and colour density, etc etc. I was using a Samsung player at the time. I poked around on various sites and found a few people with similar problems, not all of them using a Samsung. I replaced the disc twice, with no effect. One disc even played just fine on a store player, leading to a good deal of scepticism on the part of the clerks (several had gathered, anxious to see what the problem was). Eventually, I gave it away to a friend, who reported no problems playing it. I became convinced that something in the way the disc was created, the way the files were structured or made, simply didn't mesh with my particular player, and whether that was an issue with all Samsungs of that model, or just the way mine was put together, I was never able to resolve (I'm now using a Sony). But no other disc was affected; all the others, most of 'em anyway, played fine.

A long preamble. All I wanted to do was confirm that it's been my experience too that there are some player/disc combinations out there that simply don't mesh; and to support your call for some kind of overall standards so that this sort of thing happens less often.

And it's too bad; I liked Howards End when it came out, even though neither Forster nor the scenarists ever really grapple with the snobbery/class equation with any depth. But that's an issue with the story, not the production.

Thanks, Jon. Yes there is nothing we can do about Howards End at this point but maybe the problem can be discovered, whether it's a combo of player and monitor and cable, etc. Others saw the giant blocks and grid when I played it for them, even on our "professional" equipment at work. All we can hope for is what you say - overall standards set, and not just technical standards, that's a matter of pushing buttons and getting the film scanned, but standards on what a film should look like when released to the public on home video (whatever format takes over in the future...).

And I do agree about the film: good movie, but Forster's fragile plot was spread over too much production design. Had they stuck to the biting social sting in several scenes rather than having played it safe with just having polite people angry at each other, it would have been a helluva film.

Well I picked up the blu in the latest Facebook sale and it looks fine to me. Its Super 35, the transfer was made from a converted IP made for printing, "Criterion" is practically a synonym for GRAIN, you can tell its largely the source since the grain level fluctuates from the amount of light and exposure. This is just how this film looks and the transfer represents it well.

IPs are not "converted". The pre-DI optical conversion of a Super-35 shot film to anamorphic happened from the IP to IN stage, not Negative to IP. The IP would be a contact print directly from the Negative.

Vincent
Edited by Vincent_P - 9/14/11 at 10:43pm