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How the Grinch Stole Christmas! (1966) Recolored?

post #1 of 26
10/7/09 at 8:18am
Thread Starter 
The blu-ray comparisons that are just starting to trickle out show some of the most dramatic color changes I've seen in awhile regarding animation. Apparently they want to take the 1966 version of the Grinch and make him bright lime green like the Jim Carrey version. I've always remembered the old VHS/broadcast/book version being a very dull green.

So this isn't cool right?
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post #2 of 26
10/7/09 at 10:00am
Wow. The drab colors shown in the caps from the original DVD release are how I've always known it. The coloring of DVD/Blu-ray caps just look wrong. Very disappointing.
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post #3 of 26
10/7/09 at 10:26am
Looks like the negative was printed too light.  The old transfer is also too blue (probably because of a fading element).
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post #4 of 26
10/7/09 at 10:57am
I was thinking the same as JACK - I think the negative used on previous editions was not correct or faded. Not to say there wasn't any boosting done... but I bought the BD yesterday along with Charlie Brown.. I watched several mins of Brown and it looked what I would expect doesn't seem color boosted at all.. a few artifacts maybe but it looked as it should.
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post #5 of 26
10/7/09 at 1:12pm
 I'm going to play devil's advocate, but maybe this is what it's supposed to look like, and years of fading and wear (I doubt TV animated productions used successive exposure, because they were notorious for cutting costs everywhere) have distorted its appearance?

And I looked for some pictures of "Grinch" animation cels for reference and I found one:



Animation Cel

And this site:
http://www.animationartgallery.com/achuckjonesgrinchorig.html
Has many more cels; the colors look like the Blu-Ray to me.

I'm guessing some long-needed restoration has been performed.
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post #6 of 26
10/7/09 at 1:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewA View Post

I'm guessing some long-needed restoration has been performed.

Frankly, it seems this way to me too. There were some similar dramatic color shifts on many of the restored Looney Tunes shorts, too, and the anecdotal evidence of the original cels seems to indicate the Grinch was green
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post #7 of 26
10/7/09 at 2:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewA View Post

 I'm going to play devil's advocate, but maybe this is what it's supposed to look like, and years of fading and wear (I doubt TV animated productions used successive exposure, because they were notorious for cutting costs everywhere) have distorted its appearance?


I could be wrong but that's my guess too and for the same reasons. I would think it's tough to say that the TV broadcasts or any of its previous video incarnations were definitely correct either.
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post #8 of 26
10/7/09 at 2:45pm
 I own three original cels from the production ( two with the Grinch ) and can confirm he is the lime green color as he now appears on the blu-ray screen caps. The new colors are far more accurate to the cels than the 'before' version. ( Haven't seen the actual disc yet )
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post #9 of 26
10/7/09 at 3:42pm
What you are seeing is the Grinch printed properly for the first time in decades.  It's cause for celebration.
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post #10 of 26
10/7/09 at 4:09pm
You don't think it's perhaps possible that the animators had an idea of how certain colors photographed and tweaked their palette accordingly, do you?
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post #11 of 26
10/7/09 at 4:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Newcomb View Post

What you are seeing is the Grinch printed properly for the first time in decades.  It's cause for celebration.


That is so COOL! 

Back in 1977 the Television Special: "Holloween is Grinch Night" was aired (which I recorded on 2" Ampex Video tape).  That special has the same color scheme as the "Dr. Suess: How the Grinch Stole Christmas" (Blu-ray) and ALL THESE YEARS, I thought that it was the one that had the whole color scheme wrong.    Now I surmise that some technician thought the original classic feature would look better with the Grinch having a "more natural" greenish-brown fur, recording it with his interpretation of the tint palette and for ALL future NTSC releases, there you have it .

Paul
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post #12 of 26
10/7/09 at 5:26pm

I think it might be likely that the print that we have been looking at all this time, was color timed so that it could be run an old tele-cine machine. As such it would be likely that the colors would be somewhat muted to accommodate the limited color range of the NTSC system. I'm talking now about the days when a film print was run live for national broadcast.

I agree with others here who suspect that this is what the colors were supposed to look like all along.

Doug

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post #13 of 26
10/7/09 at 5:26pm
Thread Starter 
This probably won't garner the same amount of hype as Wizard of Oz ... but yeah, a few looks at the original cels show he was always supposed to be bright green.

It's amazing how someone screwed up the original transfer for TV broadcasts or simply chose to tone down the green. And this is the version we came to know.

Anyone know if color TV's in 1966 could even show that shade of green correctly?... they might of said "screw it, this is to radical".
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post #14 of 26
10/7/09 at 5:28pm
     Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Theakston View Post

You don't think it's perhaps possible that the animators had an idea of how certain colors photographed and tweaked their palette accordingly, do you?

It is possible. We all have this same discussion with every Disney reissue. Unfortunately, with Chuck Jones gone and without a color video of the 1966 Broadcast (fat chance) we'll never know; the lab work was done at Metrocolor (whose reputation was better than that of DeLuxe and Pathé, but not nearly as good as Technicolor's) and the network's 35mm main feed prints and 16mm backup feed prints (2 each for East Coast and West Coast) would have faded by now. Supposedly there were no IB Tech prints (properly color balanced or otherwise) done for TV because they are too contrasty to run through a telecine, but I've heard rumors that all of Disney's TV shows were printed in IB until the dye-transfer lab closed.

It is also possible that neither one is accurate. Personally I was not impressed with the old DVDs and will definitely check out the BD.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Hillenbrand View Post

That is so COOL! 

Back in 1977 the Television Special: "Holloween is Grinch Night" was aired (which I recorded on 2" Ampex Video tape).  That special has the same color scheme as the "Dr. Suess: How the Grinch Stole Christmas" (Blu-ray) and ALL THESE YEARS, I thought that it was the one that had the whole color scheme wrong.    Now I surmise that some technician thought the original classic feature would look better with the Grinch having a "more natural" greenish-brown fur, recording it with his interpretation of the tint palette and for ALL future NTSC releases, there you have it .

Paul
 

I'm impressed that you taped that on a 2" Quad machine. Those things were as big as refrigerators and the tapes were the opposite of cheap. Did you work at a TV station? If more people had your foresight a lot of shows might still exist in some form today.

Of course the other Dr. Seuss TV specials were animated by DePatie-Freleng Enterprises, not Chuck Jones, and for what it's worth the Grinch was white in the book.
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post #15 of 26
10/7/09 at 5:59pm
Wow. Originally pigment paints on celluloid, photographed on who knows what kind of color film emulsion, transferred to video with 1966-vintage telecine and video tape for original broadcast, then viewed on 1966-era phosphor CRTs - who knows HOW the thing is really supposed to look?
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post #16 of 26
10/7/09 at 7:33pm
It never ceases to amaze me how often people use DVD (or even laserdisc) as their quality reference for BR.
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post #17 of 26
10/7/09 at 8:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Penna View Post

Wow. Originally pigment paints on celluloid, photographed on who knows what kind of color film emulsion, transferred to video with 1966-vintage telecine and video tape for original broadcast, then viewed on 1966-era phosphor CRTs - who knows HOW the thing is really supposed to look?

It wasn't even transferred to video back then. It was a print run through a film chain, which had a video camera attached to it, which sent the video signal to the control booth, which sent it out to the network feed. Studios didn't start transferring filmed TV programs to tape for the networks until the mid-1980s.
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post #18 of 26
10/7/09 at 9:16pm
 The color on the new Blu-Ray is superb and matches the cels.  That's all anyone needs to know.  It's finally the way it's supposed to look and everyone should be very happy.
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post #19 of 26
10/8/09 at 2:13pm
Quote:
Supposedly there were no IB Tech prints (properly color balanced or otherwise) done for TV because they are too contrasty to run through a telecine, but I've heard rumors that all of Disney's TV shows were printed in IB until the dye-transfer lab closed.

That's the "print the myth" story, but it's not exactly true.  Many network programs were done on Eastman stock because they were sending out a signal feed and only needed four prints (two 35mm for the west coast, two for the east).  Making new matrices for what would essentially be one-offs would be cost prohibitive.

However, most of the movies that were nationally broadcast were generally Technicolor since the studio still had access to the matrices used for the theatrical run.  I've handled a number of 35mm Technicolor TV prints.

16mm is a different ball park, of course, and I'd think that it'd have less to do with contrast and more to do with registration and sharpness issues at that point.
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post #20 of 26
10/8/09 at 2:35pm
Jack:  Why don't you make your old sig pic your avatar? 
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post #21 of 26
10/8/09 at 4:22pm
Haven't really thought about my avatar.  I'm not doing the blog anymore (too many people plagiarizing my articles), so I'll try something new...
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post #22 of 26
10/8/09 at 9:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Theakston View Post



That's the "print the myth" story, but it's not exactly true.  Many network programs were done on Eastman stock because they were sending out a signal feed and only needed four prints (two 35mm for the west coast, two for the east).  Making new matrices for what would essentially be one-offs would be cost prohibitive.
.

I know that in the 60's, NBC used 2 35mm prints for the west coast, and 2 16mm prints for the east. This was because the 16mm prints could be produced faster and put on an airplane to be shipped. I don't know if this was the procedure for the other networks or not.



Doug
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post #23 of 26
10/8/09 at 11:09pm
This looks like the Grinch I remember seeing in the early 70's.  I haven't been able to watch it in decades as I thought it was too "brown."  I thought it was my memory that was wrong.  I didn't remember the Grich being mustard colored!  And the green far more matches the cover of the soundtrack record album of the time.

If you look at the caps, it really looks like a thick layer of brown (almost sepia) has been removed from the transfer.  It seesm to have been VERY common in the 80's to master many things with a brownish cast.  And we're seing a lot of that removed these days.  This IS cause for celebration.
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post #24 of 26
10/10/09 at 3:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMor View Post

This looks like the Grinch I remember seeing in the early 70's.  I haven't been able to watch it in decades as I thought it was too "brown."  I thought it was my memory that was wrong.  I didn't remember the Grich being mustard colored!  And the green far more matches the cover of the soundtrack record album of the time.

 

As I recall, the first time they released it on DVD, the Grinch was mustard colored - even though the cover, and the extras, showed him as green. Whether he should be bright green or dull green, I have no idea.
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post #25 of 26
10/12/09 at 9:35pm
 This is one of the best Blu-Rays of the year, an absolutely terrific disc in every way.  The color is fantastic (finally) and not from a faded element.  All one need do is look at the blue and the unbelievably great and accurate red and the other eye-popping colors - I could not be happier.
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post #26 of 26
10/14/09 at 11:45pm
Got "Grinch" today, and, damn!  There are only a handful Blu-Rays that have really wowed me, and this is one.  Though, comparing it with the 2006 DVD, it appears to be the same restoration.  DVD Beaver is comparing it primarily to the 2000 DVD, which has very different coloring.  (The very first DVD edition, from 1997, was the first DVD I ever bought, so it holds a special place in my heart.)

Here's another link to a gallery that sold many original cels from "Grinch" (five pages of them), and, yes, the coloring of the Blu-Ray really does look like the original cels:

http://www.animationsensations.com/the_grinch_animation.html

Not many original backgrounds on the above site, but here is one.  It's the background for the shot where the Grinch's sled goes down into the circle of Whos, and they part to let him in.  The coloring is just like it is on the new Blu-Ray:

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