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RAF's Grammar Rant Wiki - Page 2

post #31 of 75
10/8/09 at 6:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh Jackes View Post

I am a technical writer.  My company's style guide has decried that we have a Web site (capital "W").  Bugs me.


 

Quote:
The diference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between the lightning and the lightning bug.
 


 

-- Mark Twain
 

Sometimes the difference is just one letter. "Decried" means disapprove. I assume you meant to type "decreed". It's the kind of thing I do all the time these days; so thanks for the example and for keeping me company.
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post #32 of 75
10/8/09 at 7:15am
Thread Starter 
This is a tough room! 
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post #33 of 75
10/8/09 at 9:08am
You guys have to read this book if you haven't already:
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post #34 of 75
10/8/09 at 9:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Frezon View Post

This is a tough room! 
 

If it is tough room, then that is a good thing in my opinion.  Who would not want to improve one's writing? ;)

No disrespect meant to the original poster above, but I also don't hold the opinion that one ought to write the same way that they talk.  I think that these are two separate entities. I also think that tone and phrasing are usually different for speech and for writing (and ought to be).  The goal is effective communication in both domains.  There are some areas of overlap -- a delivered speech, for example.  But I would rewrite a paper before I delivered it as a presentation.  I would aim to please and persuade for the ear and the eye.
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post #35 of 75
10/8/09 at 9:23am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ockeghem View Post

No disrespect meant to the original poster above, but I also don't hold the opinion that one ought to write the same way that they talk.  I think that these are two separate entities.

I'm with you on this...but I can agree in the sense that there is a certain ability that some writers have to deliver their work in an accessible, conversational manner that can serve to draw in the reader.  It is quite a skill--one that some might interpret as "writing like they talk," but all you'd have to do is read a transcript (or the script of a play or film)  to know that's the farthest thing from reality. 

And, of course, the writers that some readers may feel are the best-at-that would be the writers that others may find to be utterly inaccessible.  So goes subjectivity. 
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post #36 of 75
10/8/09 at 1:42pm
Quote:
I am a technical writer.  My company's style guide has decried that we have a Web site (capital "W").  Bugs me.
 


Well, if they don't like having a "Web" site, why don't they just take it down? 

Recent verbal tics that grate on my ear:  When did "sooner rather than later" become "sooner than later"?  Did I miss a meeting.  I've both read and heard a couple of business stories lately in which the reporter referred to an "upstart company" when he or she clearly meant "start-up company".  Honestly, folks, there is a difference. 

Later,

Joe
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post #37 of 75
10/8/09 at 2:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Frezon View Post




Youse guys need to shaddup already - Da Bronx 

Yinz guys need to get outta tahn, an 'at. -- Pittsburghese

My recent pet peeve is the explosion of people who type "then" when they mean "than."  It's rampant, at my work, on the net, etc.

"This thread is more interesting then the other ones."
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post #38 of 75
10/8/09 at 2:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Frezon View Post

A couple of points intrigue me.  The first is his use of a capital "I" when describing the internet. 


While this has become an interesting topic of discussion among grammarians, I fall on the side of the argument that even though the word has evolved into a noun which refers to a specific thing, the English language doesn't currently capitalize similar nouns such as radio and television.  We wouldn't say:  "Yes, Television can be a wonderful place..."
Well, the AP Stylebook capitalizes it, my definitive source for all formating that doesn't involve nontransmitting symbols, so I suppose I have to side with RAF on this one. That being said, I'm sure I leave Internet uncapitalized far more often than I capitalize it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Frezon View Post

And that's one of the things I find most interesting about this discussion:  the different levels of importance individuals place on how they are perceived by others through their written communications skills on the internet.  I'm sure volumes have been written in academia on the subject. 

For me (and I don't mean to propose that means I feel others should feel likewise) it is very important to me that I use proper spelling, capitalization, punctuation and grammar when composing posts on the HTF, e-mails, etc.  I really care that people don't think I'm careless with the rules that guide the English language.  But, then again, I'm in the field of communications. 
If you're in communications, communicating properly is of paramount value. For the last year, I've been working more-or-less fulltime for a wholesale distributor. I was shocked how carelessly businessmen write e-mails pertaining to deals that they have a lot of money riding on. The e-mails we get from contractors, etc. are routinely devoid of punctuation and capitalization. Why? Because the nature of the communication is irrelevant to them, as long as the correct information is conveyed. Writing is a means to an end, they have nothing invested in it. On the other hand, when I was still in journalism, I almost never received an e-mail that wasn't properly spelled and grammatically correct. How one wrote was essential to how one was perceived.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennH View Post

My recent pet peeve is the explosion of people who type "then" when they mean "than."  It's rampant, at my work, on the net, etc.
I was disgusted the other day when I caught "they're" used as a possessive in a New York Times article where "their" was the only appropriate option. Did the Gray Lady drop all of her copy editors? And how could any journalist who makes such obvious mistakes get there in the first place?
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post #39 of 75
10/8/09 at 3:00pm
Here's one I see a lot of and not just on the HTF -

"Who would of thought that would happen?"

- which for a second seems okay, it reads well, but it's wrong! The people typing that down don't see anything wrong with it, because thats the way they speak it. It's hilarious.
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post #40 of 75
10/8/09 at 3:11pm
Quote:
My recent pet peeve is the explosion of people who type "then" when they mean "than."  It's rampant, at my work, on the net, etc.
 

I know I've been guilty of that on occasion. I understand the difference, at least, so when I do make this error it's merely a typo. If I bother to proofread (not always on quick posts/emails I confess) and catch it, then I will fix it straightaway.

Similarly I've caught myself typing "their" in place of "they're" on occasion. In my case, it's really just a case of fast typing getting in the way.
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post #41 of 75
10/8/09 at 3:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob McLaughlin View Post

You guys have to read this book if you haven't already:
A well regarded book, for good reason, but I find Ms. Truss's work to be a bit too British. The definitive book for me was always:

You can tell how long I've gone without a brush up by how awkward and shoddy my grammar has become. Anybody who manages to master the rules posited by Strunk and White will be a competent writer, however talented or untalented they think they are.
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post #42 of 75
10/8/09 at 3:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph DeMartino View Post

Did I miss a meeting. 

No, but you did miss a question mark, Einstein. 
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post #43 of 75
10/8/09 at 5:58pm
You guys have actually read books on grammar and punctuation? Wow! I guess if you write for a living I could see that. How about a tradesman or a profession where writing is not needed? I remember when I was 26. My wife,(then girlfriend) was riding with me when I got pulled over for driving a little slow. The cop started the usual drunk test - say the alphabet. I got about half way through it and lost my place. I had been out of school for 8 years and I bet I hadn't recited the alphabet in 15 - 20 years. I never needed it. Well that lead to me walking the line while my wife (a preschool teacher) was trying hard not to laugh. I still say that writing needs to evolve: a lot = alot, web site = website, etc...
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post #44 of 75
10/8/09 at 7:51pm
I think those of us who have read those books would encourage anyone, regardless of his vocation, to read them.

Having been through a rigorous "grammar for journalists" course, I have noticed there seems to be one type of person who either "gets" spelling and grammar and another who, no matter how it's explained, never quite grasps it. It's an interesting phenomenon and I was not entirely surprised when I saw a personality study ask about one's ability with spelling and grammar as an indicator of personality type.
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post #45 of 75
10/9/09 at 10:12am
I ALMOST posted a link to Penny Arcade's Mr. Period strip yesterday.  It's funny but verrry anti-PC.  Google it if that does not offend...
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post #46 of 75
10/9/09 at 10:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Frezon View Post

Administrator Robert Fowkes has written an HTF wiki on improper grammar usage.

A couple of points intrigue me.  The first is his use of a capital "I" when describing the internet. 
 

OK, don't get mad at me Doc but....  It's a wiki right?  So I took Mike's suggestion and I fixed it for you!  =)  Voila, Internet -> internet

heheh
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post #47 of 75
10/9/09 at 8:59pm
And that's what leads to wiki pingponging. I changed it back because it was correct to begin with.

"Internet" is a proper noun when referring to the Internet and not just a generic computer network.

IBM's TCP/IP Tutorial and Technical Overview (ISBN 0-7384-2165-0) from 1989
Quote:

The words internetwork and internet is [sic] simply a contraction of the phrase interconnected network. However, when written with a capital "I", the Internet refers to the worldwide set of interconnected networks. Hence, the Internet is an internet, but the reverse does not apply. The Internet is sometimes called the connected Internet.


According to Wikipedia's article on the naming convention, different media sources have differing opinions on the convention, however the Internet standards community uses capitalization. The majority of North American major media outlets and use capitalization.

And while it may someday lose its capitalization and status as a proper noun through common usage, that has not occurred just yet.
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post #48 of 75
10/10/09 at 12:52am
RAF noted, "...when Steve Jobs rolled out the latest iPod and proclaimed it 'the funnest iPod yet!' I began to think that his anti-corporate jeans (and genes) might be going to his head."

I'd noticed Jobs' use of "funnest" as well, and considered it a triumph! "Most fun" is a laborious, indirect way of conveying the meaning which Jobs conveyed more directly with "funnest".

If "happy" can become "happiest", and "sad" can be "saddest", then "fun" can become "funnest".

As RAF noted, it forces "fun" from being a noun into being an adjective, but it's probably been a hundred years since "fun" was a noun. "Buy some fun... fun sold here... how many ounces of fun would you like to buy today?" doesn't make any sense to a contemporary person. It's an adjective. The noun version needs to be moved down in dictionary ranking, and the adjective version needs to be moved up to position one.

MY PET PEEVE is when people spell "lightning" as "lightening". Unfortunately for me, both are correct. But to me, "lightning" sounds like the fierce electrical discharge from clouds, and "lightening" sounds like some sort of flour or shortening used in a recipe, or maybe something to lighten the color of paint.




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post #49 of 75
10/10/09 at 5:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Will_B View Post

RAF noted, "...when Steve Jobs rolled out the latest iPod and proclaimed it 'the funnest iPod yet!' I began to think that his anti-corporate jeans (and genes) might be going to his head."

I'd noticed Jobs' use of "funnest" as well, and considered it a triumph! "Most fun" is a laborious, indirect way of conveying the meaning which Jobs conveyed more directly with "funnest".

If "happy" can become "happiest", and "sad" can be "saddest", then "fun" can become "funnest".

As RAF noted, it forces "fun" from being a noun into being an adjective, but it's probably been a hundred years since "fun" was a noun. "Buy some fun... fun sold here... how many ounces of fun would you like to buy today?" doesn't make any sense to a contemporary person. It's an adjective. The noun version needs to be moved down in dictionary ranking, and the adjective version needs to be moved up to position one.

(.....)

As a non English speaking person (first language, that is), I must hesitantly disagree.

If you say "it's funny", there's no doubt that funny is an adjective and the superlative would be "funniest", much like sad - saddest.

However, if you say "it's fun", you basically say something like "it's a heap of fun" and fun is still a noun. No possibility to translate it to "most fun" or "funnest" in a semantically proper way.
(Of course you could say "it's mostly fun" - but that doesn't contradict the argument.)

And I don't even see why Jobs didn't say "the funniest iPod yet".

All IMHO, of course! 


Cees
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post #50 of 75
10/10/09 at 6:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Will_B View Post

As RAF noted, it forces "fun" from being a noun into being an adjective, but it's probably been a hundred years since "fun" was a noun. "Buy some fun... fun sold here... how many ounces of fun would you like to buy today?" doesn't make any sense to a contemporary person. It's an adjective. The noun version needs to be moved down in dictionary ranking, and the adjective version needs to be moved up to position one.


You're having fun with us, aren't you?

But you'll have to excuse me, because it's the weekend. I've had a busy week, and I want to go out and have some fun.
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post #51 of 75
10/10/09 at 11:07am
In a society that has legitimized the use of a meaningless word like "ginormous", arguing about Jobs's use of the word "funnest" seems pointless. The flexibility and adaptability of English is what makes it so dynamic and yet hard to understand for many people. Words and phrases that we take for granted today were probably being debated -much as people are doing here now-  as abominations 100 years ago.
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post #52 of 75
10/10/09 at 6:02pm
How many here have read Mark Twain's essay on reforming English spelling?  I know it'll never be implemented, but it seems pretty logical to me:

http://www.mantex.co.uk/samples/spell.htm

The best thing I can say about it is that I have little trouble understanding the last two paragraphs.
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post #53 of 75
10/10/09 at 6:05pm
This week's pet peeve:  "Advise" (verb) being used in place of "Advice" (noun.)  Different words. 

Joe
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post #54 of 75
10/10/09 at 10:36pm
Thread Starter 
Strunk's first edition of Elements of Style (1918) actually had an entire section on spelling:  a list of words commonly misspelled.  That was removed by White in the first joint publication because it contained some archaic rules...such as spelling today, tonight and tomorrow (but not together)  with a hyphen (to-day, etc.).  Things do change.

George Bernard Shaw (I learned this as a young lad) once proposed some spelling changes of his own.  He once spelled:

ghoti = fish

enough

women

nation
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post #55 of 75
10/11/09 at 1:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolesrule View Post

And that's what leads to wiki pingponging. I changed it back because it was correct to begin with.


Heheh I don't know whether to say 'aw you're no fun' or to clap because you 'get' the wiki idea =)
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post #56 of 75
10/11/09 at 1:37pm
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/11/magazine/11FOB-onlanguage-t.html?_r=2&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
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post #57 of 75
10/12/09 at 12:46am
Hey guys, thanks for pointing out those books, if any one needs grammar lessons, I know it's me
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post #58 of 75
10/12/09 at 1:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Posten View Post


Heheh I don't know whether to say 'aw you're no fun' or to clap because you 'get' the wiki idea =)

Clap
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post #59 of 75
10/18/09 at 11:31am
As long as we're on the subject of books about grammar and proper word connotation, I highly recommend Bryson's Dictionary of Troublesome Words (Bill Bryson).  It's a fun read even if none of its information is surprising to you.  Bryson's Dictionary for Writers and Editors (the "follow-up", you might say) is not nearly as enjoyable, because it contains mostly proper nouns for journalists.

My own pet peeve is the rampant "it's / its" confusion, which has poisoned many (otherwise talented) writers.  I just can't seem to wrap my head around why this is so confusing for so many people.

Steve
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post #60 of 75
10/20/09 at 10:09pm
One thing that many people, myself included, finding confusing is the use of the trailing "s". In the absense of anything more specific, I've always added the trailing "s" to possessives of singular proper nouns (ex. John Stevens's secretary had been out to lunch for six hours) but omitted the trailing "s" from plural possessives (ex. The executives' secretary had been out to lunch for six hours).
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