Dollhouse - season 2 - Page 4

I wasn't criticizing you for your opinion, I was criticizing the manner in which you expressed it. I have no problem with you disliking the show; as other comments demonstrate, you're in good company there. But to rush over and cheer the demise of a show that others enjoyed because the network canceled a completely different show a year ago that you enjoyed just seems spiteful and meanspirited.

The rest of my post wasn't criticism, it was correction of inaccurate assertions.
 

I don't think you understand the distinction between the production studio that makes the show and the network that orders episodes for broadcast. Joss Whedon's Mutant Enemy production shingle is based at 20th Century Fox Television. All of his shows have been produced by 20th Century Fox right from the beginning. That's different from the networks that aired them; The WB broadcast the first five seasons of "Buffy", and the UPN brought the rights for the last two seasons. All five seasons of "Angel" aired on The WB. Because 20th Century Fox produced the shows, it holds the home video and syndication rights to the shows. This is why the DVDs for all of Joss's shows are released by 20th Century Fox.

News Corp. owns the 20the Century Fox film studio, the Fox Broadcasting Company television network, and the 20th Century Fox Television production studio. Because "Buffy" and "Angel" aired on non-Fox networks, they didn't benefit from the synergy that "Firefly" and "Dollhouse" benefited from. In this manner, there were the inverse of "T:SCC": "T:SCC" was produced by Warner Bros. the studio and aired on Fox the network. If the network and studio are owned by the same company, the network has a greater financial incentive to keep the show around. This undoubtedly played a role in "Dollhouse"'s renewal last season. But as has been said, "T:SCC" got two seasons before Fox pulled the plug, and "Dollhouse" got two seasons before Fox pulled the plug. It's not like one got shafted at the expense of the other.

If TV networks produced the series they owned, House would be on NBC, The O.C. would have been on The WB, Buffy would have been on Fox, CSI could potentially have been a UPN show, Veronica Mars would have been on The WB...and the list goes on.

However as it has been explained it was never remotely as close to that at all, since one (network) has nothing to do with the other (producing studio).

I'll muddy the waters a bit more - ANGEL, produced by 20th Century Fox, broadcast on The WB, was filmed at Paramount studios.

Dollhouse might be filmed there as well, possibly even on the same stages but I'm not 100% about that. :)

according to iMDB, Dollhouse is filmed at 20th Century Fox Studios. Guess that makes it a bit simpler. :)

Back to back episodes start tonight.

I hope they're not too concerned with the ratings this first night back with it going up against the Monk series finale.  When I'm home on a Friday night, I usually watch Dollhouse live and then Monk/ Psych on the DVR, but will definitely be rewatching last week's Monk and then the finale tonight.

... Though I guess the ratings really don't matter any more, with them not getting a second season and already committing to finishing this season.

Not quite the role I pictured them putting Summer Glau in.  I don't really think it worked for her, personally.

Still, pretty good episodes tonight, I'm glad they were paired together instead of a week apart.

Seems like Topher and Bennett just inadvertently started the path to the future in Epitaph One with that device.

2 good Dollhouses tonight but once again undermined by Dushku's lack of acting range, especially during one critical scene.

Interesting interview with Whedon in the Chicago Tribune: http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/12/dollhouse-fox-joss-whedon.html

I for one was surprised when Whedon said he intended one of the central concepts of the show to be the "exploration of sexuality and intimacy, in all its form," and that he was disappointed when Fox shyed away from that. Whedon thinks pretty high of himself if he thinks it was because looking "more closely at the desires and fantasy lives of the Dollhouse's clients" was too risque for Fox.  He goes on to say that basically he was pushing the envelope and challenging the norms of sexuality on network TV, and that he was moved away from his original concept for the show.

Well, you know what Mr. Whedon?  Your original concept was pretty crap, and I think the "changes" Fox made actually improved the show.  You say "it wasn't just sex," in reference to people commenting that Dollhouse is "trafficking/sex for money."  Say what you like, but it's clear to me that you tried to make a show in the same vein as the recent, darker, dramas on HBO and showtime (to name a few networks), where you essentially root for the villians, or at least empathasize with them, while exploring deviant lifestyles (organized crime, drugs, et cetera).

You tried and you failed--at least have the balls to admit that you failed on your own, in your original concept.  The Dollhouse employees weren't anywhere near as interesting or multi-faceted as say Tony Soprano or Stringer Bell, and I found it hard to root for anyone but Ballard and the dolls.  If this was intended, that the audience is supposed to root for bringing down the dollhouse, then fox shouldn't have had to move the show towards that goal.

I don't think the show ever had the potential to truly tackle the "questions about identity" that Whedon claims was his goal.  I'll be looking  to Caprica for that (Jane Espenson made a good choice jumping ship).

It seems Whedon is blaiming Fox's stance on sex as the reason the show failed, but what it appears to me is that Fox was really just trying to save a mediocre show by moving it towards something that was at least entertaining.  Whedon comes off like egotistical and delusional.

That all being said, Olivia Williams looked pretty damned hot this week--I daresay she's the best-looking part of the show.

I stopped watching the show a while ago, but Whedon's concept, which may have worked on Showtime, was never gonna fly on Fox.  I don't even understand why he thought it was ever going to work on Fox or any other major network.  It might have worked on FX, but seriously, this would have made a must see Showtime or HBO series.

A bizarre bit of hubris on Joss' part.  He was actually disppointed that Fox didn't want to follow his vision?  It's like trying to stage Oh Calcutta! as a high school musical -- you thought this was going to happen?. 

I don't think he's disappointed at all.  In every public statement he's made, he's been very open about how grateful he is for Fox giving him the term he has.

 

The two eps last night were very, very good.  In fact, probably the best sci-fi elements the show has had.  But you're right, the direction this show could take would be perfect for say, FX, but it just can't be done to the extent that would make it high quality on a broadcast network.

 

When he talks about the things he wanted to do and the thing he was forced to do instead, the disappointment is implied.  The comment at the end drips with disappointment.

BTW, the interviewer seems startingly naive when he seemed surprised that Fox didn't want more sex.  I think he confuses jiggle with sexuality.

Well-stated.  I thin Whedon makes the same confusion.  Dressing Dushku up in various pieces of lingerie doesn't equate sexuality, nor do any of the clients and their fantasies explore the concept in any meaningful way.  Further, I don't think Whedon's concept wasn't simply a poor-fit for broadcast TV, but TV in general, because it's a lame concept for a (even light) sci-fi series.

"I want to explore sexuality, desire, love, and what 'identity' means."
"Okay.  Sounds interesting."
"All against the backdrop of a high-concept sci-fi setting, where you can erase peoples' personalities, and load up whatever you want them to be."
"Okaaaaay..."
"And there will be some drug company running the whole thing.  Shades of massive conspiracy and intrigue.  Oh, and we'll have a character trying to bring the whole thing down.  Also, one of the dolls will slowly learn the truth."
"Okay, so the main focus will be on the intrigue and the good vs. evil and saving the dolls?"
"Nah."

One once again Enver Gjokai proves to be the standout.

All the 'hype' over Summer Glau completely goes over my head, because I simply don't see what everyone else apparently does.

That's what I was thinking. I enjoy the parade of hot chicks as much as anyone but in terms of acting ability, he's easily the most talented of the doll actors.

Thanks for the interview link, Josh! It looks like I am going to get an "Epitaph Two". Great news. It was nice to see Joss pulling back from criticizing Fox when he started to. Most showrunners would kill for the patience Fox has shown "Dollhouse".

I don't think you'll ever see a show about the soul of prostitution. Maybe on HBO or Showtime, but even then I doubt it. You can make shows about prostitutes, but not about what the client seeks and what the prostitute provides. It's too uncomfortable, and often sad. The closest any show has come to what Joss wanted to do was probably "Fantasy Island", particularly in the early episodes when Mr. Roarke, whose role as facilitator paralleled that of a pimp, was portrayed with sinister overtones.


I can't wait to see where they take it from here.

Really?  I mean really?  Her lack of range is easily discernible.  The moment in the car with the Senator when Echo realizes she is a doll was the emotional heart of the episode and she lacked the chops to display that and make me empathize with her plight.  One of many instances.  The other more recent one was when she was imprinted as a mother. The scenes where she expressed concern about her baby were terrible and painful to watch.

Its not about her ability to portray other characters.  It is about her ability to do the emotional or heavy lifting scenes.  Totally outside of her acting range.  The proof is in the pudding.  The show's best episodes have been those were Echo is on the sidelines because the other actors have the chops to handle the emotional material.
Edited by Lou Sytsma - 12/8/09 at 6:25am

I'm not saying that she's a great actor but I think Dushku is fine in the Echo role. At the very least, there's one other actor in the main cast who stands out as much less talented than her.

I meant to say "And once again..." but typed "One once again..."  instead. Brain can be a tricky little ball of goo.

The only times I saw Glau play someone quote-unquote "normal" was her debut on the ANGEL episode "Waiting In The Wings". Even when she appeared on an episode of CSI (in a very small, brief role) she still had that River Tam-weirdness to her that she obviously parlayed into a cold Terminator - something that was a part of River as well, but in smaller doses. I don't dislike her, but I don't like her either. That's why I don't see the hype that surrounds her, going into Terminator and now Dollhouse. It's the one piece of stunt casting that means nothing to me at all, compared to say, Alexis Denisof who I've missed since 2004. Very happy to see him on television again.

My first thought when seeing essentially 'Wesley' and 'Faith' in the same bed can be summed up as "Eww". I'm sorry but that was just wrong. ;)

I think the episodes tonight must have the been the first episodes written where they pretty much knew the show was going to be cancelled. Any pretext of an episodic plot has been abandoned. The three-month jump in time, followed by the rapid introduction of the technology from "Epitaph One", followed by the return of Alpha, followed by -- essentially -- the murder of Ballard is too much crammed into two hours for a show that plans to continue indefinitely. This makes me happy, since they were the best two hours of the season, and likely mean that the show will go out properly.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Patton Oswalt, whose John I previously mentioned as the one who best represented what Whedon was trying to acheive with the concept, was the one spotlighted amidst Alpha's killing pattern. He is absolutely terrific in that role, all the more effective because of how much he underplays it. I also really liked Dushku's performance. The character was tangibly different before the three month jump than she was afterward. DeWitt is the biggest question mark: Did her stint as underling really break her to the point where she's just trying to survive, or does she have a larger motive in all of this?

I was shocked myself to see Alpha back.  For some reason I thought he died at the end of last season, not sure why.  Anyway, the part was played perfectly again, and I agree that these were the best two episodes this year (though I thought most of this year has been pretty good).

On a random note, I wonder if there's anyone out there still watching who hasn't seen Epitaph One, I wonder if the sudden shift to this is more jarring to them than those of us who have seen it.

I agree with Adam.  They obviously knew the show was coming to an end, so they jam packed with forward movement.

 

But let me say something: these two episodes back to back were structured in a way that was FAR, FAR better then the entire series.  In fact, while I've enjoyed the series, it's kind of sad seeing these two episodes, which managed to put out an action packed, not goofy sci-fi plot and realize that if the show had played out very differently, this had the elements present to be an "alias" type action, with lots of plot.
 

The concepts in the plot all played out tonight, but it was done in such a way that there are a hundred directions to go..

Kind of sad, because if we had jumped into the story originally closer to this point, or with different pacing, this show could have went a totally different way.  Imagine Dollhouse with the unaired pilot to "man on the street" to the last two eps of Season 1, followed by Epitaph 1, and then the episodes of this season.
 

Wow, what a different ride that would have been.

The dialog in tonight's episode was snappy, breakneck, with great punches and delivery.  Even Dushku managed to pull off a good buzz when fed the right dialog "He's seven times the man you are, and there are like, forty of you.."  great moment, followed by his retort "it's not like you're the moon, many many men have walked there" *(or something close)*  that whole exchange was great stuff.

Taken as a whole, these two eps were probably the best open action of the series, and the dialog was at it's sharpest.  I think the motivation of "let's go out swinging" does a lot to help make this series move forward.  Next week's episode, as Echo starts to spy on what the hell the attic is looks to be a great set to.

 

Twitter is an amazing thing. I bet it might become popular.

Yes, Dushku's best acting to date.

I missed a beat in the first one.  Did Olivia give up Topher's plans just to regain control of the DollHouse?  I hope there is more to her action than just that.

Echo started flashing!  Good thing hardly anyone watches this show or they might think it was an offshoot of Chuck.

This is what we're led to believe: DeWitt, either from three months as an underling or because of the crushing inevitability of Rossum's horrible scheme, gave up all notions of altruism and chivalry to instead focus on sheer self-preservation. That's plausible for the obvious reasons.

However, I agree with you. I hope she's got a larger plan than just throwing in the towel. The strange thing to me is that I thought the first episode showed that she was in on Boyd and Ballard's plan with Echo. The second episode made it clear that this was not the case.

All I can say is that I've walked away the past two weeks completely satisfied (this week even more so), and I'll miss the show.

I didn't get DeWitt's actions either... though for that matter, I'd think Topher would confide in Boyd or Ballard before her anyway.  Boyd and Ballard have always been way more moral than DeWitt, so it just felt a little off that he would tell her.

But anyway, yeah, I didn't get it.  It was horrible for her to not be in charge, but it wasn't like they could wipe her or anything.  Now, she gives them the plans, and as soon as she misbehaves, she's in trouble.  I guess you could say that they would've eventually gotten the tech without Topher anyway, but it didn't make sense to me, so I hope she had some plan in mind.

Same here. For me, the show has been very up and down (one week, I'll think an episode is very good and then I'll think the next episode is lousy) but the last four episodes have been rock solid.

Yes I was left with the same impression.  Something seems to have been lost or cut for time's sake that leaves that story thread off.

I think that Topher needs to point his remote wipe gun at Dewitt. I think she has been "tweeked". She is sure acting like she has been programmed.

I was wondering that for a little myself.  Do we even know for sure that her original personality wasn't a doll thing like Whiskey as the doctor?