Flash Forward - season 1 - Page 2

I basically agree with your entire post, Josh, but have to pick a nit on this part:  Moore's Galactica was a show that demonstrated all the pitfalls of not having a plan, and literally making it up as you go along.  (The X-Files is another.)  And of course you are right about the distinction between not having a plan and not knowing how many seasons/episodes you have to get to the end of your story.  The former produces confusion, inconsistency and either disappointment or a mythology so convoluted that even the creators can no longer keep it straight.  The latter produces tap-dancing and stalling - often in the form of interesting detours within the story, sometimes into dead-ends and or misfires. 

Even a well-planned "arc" show operates under constraints that a novel, for instance, doesn't, and this can lead to missteps and inconsistencies that are beyond the control of the show-runners. 

A novelist can come up with a new plot twist in chapter 12 and go back and rewrite the first 11 chapters to make everything consistent.  But the showrunner of an "arc" show is publishing each "chapter" as he finishes it.  It he (or she) comes up with a new idea there's a choice to be made - stick to the plan and maybe end up with a weaker story or go with the change and live with a contradiction or a dangling plot-line. 

And a novelist doesn't have to worry about his characters getting sick, or hurt, or fed up or arrested.  He doesn't have a living, breathing actor playing each one to life - an actor who might be a pain in the ass on the set, or create problems with other actors or demand too much more money or too much more screen time (always a problem on an ensemble show with a large cast.)  Sometimes those actors quit and sometimes they have to be fired.  Novelists never have to fire a character mid-book because he keeps showing up on the set drunk. 

That leads to another decision point - introduce a new character or recast?  (That's also an issue with occasional recurring characters.  The actor originally cast is not always available the next time the character is supposed to appear.  That leads to "continuity problems" in the mind of some fans.)

Conversely a TV showrunner doesn't have to worry about an actor in a minor role proving so popular that he has to adjust his plot to keep the character around longer than planned, and make him more important to the story. 

All of these things produce the kind of changes in shows that lead to some people (often those who don't know or don't care much about the mechanics of TV production) to cry "There's no plan!" or "Where's the arc?" when what's really happening are adjustments to an pre-planned arc forced on the showrunner by real world factors beyond his control.  

Given the initial set-up of Flashforward, I'm very glad to hear that they plan to end the season on April 30th 2010.  My thought at the end of the pilot was that was what they had to do, that stretching it any further would be a huge mistake.  It is also a good sign that (like Lost and Babylon 5) they seem to be smart enough not to make the apparent initial premise/mystery be the premise for the entire series they've envisioned.  That can get stale pretty quick.  I said during the 1st season of Lost that I saw no reason the Losties could not escape from the island well before the last episode of the final season (like in S4, maybe), thereby changing the whole nature of the show.  People jumped all over me like I had just peed in the punchbowl.    Those shows used their initial starting pionts as a way into a larger and more mysterious story than was hinted at in the early episodes.

If Lost had stuck with the "will they/how will they get off the island?" as its main plot it would have been six or seven years of stalling and "filler".  Because it couldn't be anything else.  The whole point of a show like that is not reaching the conclusion.  (Because the minute you do, the show is over.  See Star Trek: Voyager. *)   You get away with this on an episodic  "wandering do-gooder" show.  In The Fugitive, Richard Kimble's ultimate goal was finding the one-armed man and clear his name, but in any given episode his status as a wanted man was only the reason he found himself in that week's dramatic situation and why his doing the right thing would put him in jeopardy.   The episodes were all about Kimble's life as a fugitive, not his quest to stop being one.  Similarly Run for Your Life and The Guns of Will Sonnett could present characters on a kind of quest, but the goal was never terribly important in any given episode - instead it was the story the knight-errant walked into along the way.  Those could do the stories they did because they had the whole American West, or the whole country or the whole world as their backdrops.  With Lost they were stuck on an island.  (Gilligan's Island had the same problem, but they were able to get around it by simply throwing all logic and common sense out the window and having a supposedly uncharted island get more tourist traffic than the Bahamas at the height of the season. ) 

Anyway, I'm glad to hear that the producers of Flashforward seem to be doing this the smart way. 

Regards,

Joe

*  In a thread discussing the show on another forum, I  once wrote a basic outline for an alternative version of Voyager.  In my conception, they discovered at the end of the pilot that it was absolutely impossible for them ever to return to Federation space.  As the show progressed they would discover the quadrant where they were stranded was under the thumb of a vicious dictatorship.  Voyager herself is a prime piece of advanced technology that both the rulers and the various small resistance groups would love to have.  After a season of dodging both sides and learning about the territory and the players, Janeway and company finally decide that the only moral thing to do is abandon the Prime Directive and take sides.  By the beginning of the 7th and final season they have pretty much conquered the entire quadrant and created a kind of mirror Federation.  At which point an experimental ship from the real Federation arrives with a way home for the crew - except that they'll all be tried and imprisoned for violating the Prime Directive. 

Later,

Joe

I don't think BSG demonstrates that, in the least.  The events of the final two seasons fit so well together that I simply refuse to believe they weren't planned (or sketched out loosely, at the very least).  Additionally, around the finale of season 1 (Kobol's Last Gleaming), you can clearly see the big picture emerging.  Moreover, basically everything beyond Razor (by which I mean the airing, not the time period takes place) is perfectly-mapped out--the Hybrid literally reveals the remaining plot to the finale.

As I stated in my post, people may believe what they wish about shows like LOST, BSG, and FlashForward, regarding the degrees of "planning," but to say any of those shows were "literally making it up as you go along" is just unbelievable.  Was everything in BSG planned, right down to every detail (even important ones, such as the identities of the Cylons)?  Of course not.  However, I personally believe Moore et al knew the general direction of the show, and Moore himself may have truly had most decisions made, even if he didn't vocalize them.

Not everything has to be planned down to the trapdoors (though that notion is a good idea) JMS had for B5, for a show to be considered "planned."  The powers than be can change things, react to casting decisions and disaster (like Triple A's [Mr. Eko] parents dying), early cancellations, strikes, et cetera, and still be "planned."

I'll also disagree with you on the initial mystery of LOST.  I've claimed (and posted as such) from day one that the real plot of the show was the "two sides, one light, one dark," battle of (most likely) good and evil.  Further, I don't think the "will they get off the island?" was every really touted on these boards as the main mystery.  I'm currently rewatching the entire series (something I do every summer), and I re-read the threads as I go, and in the first few seasons' threads, it's quite clear that most of the members saw the island itself as the big mystery, with the Others taking second place.

In the end, I stand by my statement about trusting the showrunners, and include Moore's BSG.  I think it's the best piece of military sci-fi ever (yes, better than B5, which is fighting words for you :) ).

Can someone (briefly) explain what a "show-runner" does?  I have seen the term before and curious as to what is different about it as opposed to being a writer.

^ I believe most show runners also do a final polish on all the scripts and they do the final cut of the episode too (although the network can recut it if they want).

Well I always tell myself that I am not going to get hooked on a new show for fear it will get cancelled. I guess I am once again going against myself because I really liked the pilot and will be back again this week.

I thought the pilot was a great start.  I am glad to hear that they will go through the 6 months by the end of the season.  I think it will be an interesting ride. 

One of the main themes that the series has to come up with is whether what they saw will actually happen exactly as they saw it.  I will be quite disappointed if that is the case.  By having observed the events, they have to alter their fate somewhat, even if it is just getting a deja vu feeling when they appear to be happening. 

Well, the show definitely touched on that notion, Neil, with the conversation in the kitchen between Mark and Aaron.  We see that clearly some people are going to want their flash forwards to come true (Aaron), while others (Mark) want to change them.  That seems like an interesting plot to me.

Pretty well my thoughts too.

It's driving me crazy, does anyone know who the actress was on the phone with Noh?  The voice sounds so familiar and I can't place it.

^ It's Shohreh Agdashloo. She played Dina Araz in the fourth season of 24 and was nominated for an Oscar for House Of Sand And Fog.

Thanks, definitely knew I recognized it and as soon as you said the character name from 24 I realized it.  

So what aout the little girl saying D. Gibbons is a bad MAN?

Figured she was just referring to the person who stole Gibbons' identity.

yeah but it was spooky and really dramatic when she said it.

I had some issues with the pilot, but after having some time to adjust to the show as well as watching episode 2, I'm in for the long haul. It has enough of what I like in my entertainment: Interesting premise, room to grow/explore the premiser, decent writing, decent acting, something to think about, and good production values.

One would think simply seeing the future would make it subject to change, since, for instance, someone could throw a bracelet that's supposed to be there in the future into a fire today. But that's only if the model followed is the future isn't yet written. This show provides overwhelming evidence so far that it follows the model of Determinism. In this model, no matter what you do, it will end up being exactly what you needed to do to bring about the vision you had. So even though we see a bracelet in the fire, it would end up not being the bracelet in the vision. Maybe he lies and tells his daughter he lost it, so she makes him another one and he puts it on. Whatever the case, we've yet to see a single foreseen event avoided that I can recall.

That isn't to say the show is locked into that. We're 2 episodes in. We'll just have to enjoy the ride and see how it pans out.

Kind of striking how many of these things are self-fulfilling prophecies that they're having.  He sees himself as the lead investigator, so he's the lead investigator.  The wife sees herself cheating, which could add tension that leads to her cheating.  There were quite a couple other that I thought of during the episode, but I can't think of them now.  But how many of these things would happen if they hadn't seen them happen?

Good point, Joe. And possibly even more important, how many of these things would happen at all if it wasn't for the flash? In some instances it's 'cause' and 'prophecy' rolled into one.

Quote: On the other hand some things that people saw in their glimpse into the future may not be exactly what they thought they were.  There may be more than one way of interpreting events. 

One side of seeing the future is that if you know you ar going to be around six months from now are you "invulnerable" until then?  Will we see some people taking risks they might not otherwise take?

Right, after seeing last night's episode, Penny (I now, Olivia) might think she'll have an affair with the father of her patient. But I suspect what she's interpreting is affection because they could have befriended him and his son, and nothing more. Their kids certainly are acting like they are good friends.

Maybe her husband Mark is not drinking alcohol.

Pretty chilling that Demetri got that call. Now what kind of name is Demetri for an Asian guy! That threw me and I thought they were referring to someone else, like a bad guy!

I was thinking the same thing.  And why does Mark need to pin the stuff on the board in the exact places they were in his vision?  Why not mix it up a little?

I guess I didn't phrase that well, Neil. I was talking about the event itself, rather than any interpretation of the resulting visions. A vast number of people died during, and as a result of, the event. Would so many people have otherwise died on this date? I suspect not. The "future" that folks saw is a direct result of the flash, IMO. I hope this is addressed as we move forward in the story.

It was very late when I was watching so I missed some details in my fatigue, but I remember the cupcake lady saying, "Thank you for saving my credit score."  I suppose she could still be defrauded again in the next few months, but didn't they clear up the Pigeon identity theft already?  If I was Harold, I'd be going to White Castle to celebrate the idea that some things can be changed based on that.

Are you saying she is misinterpreting her flash forward, and that the shirtless guy in her living room, the one she calls "honey" (or something else, I forget), is merely her friend?

That's what I am thinking Josh as a possible interpretation. I had forgotten she had called him honey. There goes that theory down the drain. Unless the way it's edited and the flash is replayed in her head, the honey could have been directed elsewhere. But the guy being in her living room and shirtless is a bad sign.

Don't forget that these "flashfowards" are not outside observances.  She didn't see herself seeing her new man.  She was in the moment, feeling and thinking what she would have been feeling and thinking.  She even mentioned the feeling of absolute love she had for the guy. 

At the same time, the main guy didn't just think he might have been drinking.  He tasted it, he knew he was off the wagon, etc.

None of which explains why the guy would have to see her to know her.  His kid wasn't anywhere around in the moment, but he knows her face and name.

But we don't yet know what Dillon saw in his flash forward. Obviously Olivia was part of it since he knew her name, just like Olivia's daughter knew Dillon's name. The guy's flash could revolve around something he was observing (on TV perhaps) since we see him sitting on the couch in Olivia's living room. He may not even know where he is, but rather there is something else going on that is the focus of his flash forward. Therefore, he wouldn't necessarily have to know who Olivia is, just like Olivia's husband saw the dolls in his flash but had no idea of the location where he saw them.

I think you basically answered your own question.  Lloyd doesn't recognize Olivia because he wasn't in the moment, or rather, his moment didn't involve thinking about her.  It seems resonable that the characters' consciousness don't know literally everything their future minds would know--only what they are thinking about during that specific moment in time.  So, unless future-Lloyd was thinking to himself "I love Olivia, I love Olivia, I love Olivia...," present-Lloyd wouldn't know it.

As for Dylan, for now, I'm standing by the old standby that things work differently for children, in shows like FlashForward.  It could even be his autism that changes how his flash (if he even had one) "worked."

Of course, there's the possibility that Lloyd *does* recognize Oliva from his flash, and for some reason (sinister?) he is hiding it.

Plus she just won a best supporting actress Emmy a couple of weeks back for House of Saddam.

Or that they are putting things on the board only because they think they are supposed to having seen them in the flash.