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post #61 of 204
9/16/09 at 11:46am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Cappelletty View Post

 I haven't been on in about a week and couldn't find the drop-down menu.  The "More Forum" option is miserable and ill-conceived-- I didn't know about it until I came to this thread.  PLEASE bring back the drop-down menu.  Otherwise, switching between forums becomes a massive chore and I become significantly less inclined to visit HTF (and I've been a member for over 10 years!)
Hi Mark,
I'm wondering why you think it's more of a chore... it's still just one click to get the list, then one more click to navigate to the forum of your choice. Why does it feel like more work to you? 
Also, I wanted to let you and everyone know that to clear the menu you have 3 ways... click away, click close, or simple press your ESC key.

Please let me know why you think it's more work... just to reiterate the intention of this change was certainly not to frustrate anyone or make things harder! We made this change to help reduce the amount of space at the top of the page that was pushing the forum listings down further (user requested change). I'd be very interested to hear what you have to say about why you feel this menu adds work and we'll see if we can't address it!

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post #62 of 204
9/16/09 at 12:02pm
Benjamin,

Have you used it on a laptop with a pointing device (the little stick in the keyboard).  PITA! You move the mouse down the forum you want, try to move to the right without loosing the vertical position.  At night.  In the dark.  When I'm tired. 

What ever happened to Keep It Simple?  What ever happened to "The customer (forum user) is right"?  I see this attitude more all over and it is really a symptom of a much bigger problem.  Companies are losing sight of what got them to where they are today.  Unfortunately, many are now paying for it (failing).

PS - Don't misunderstand me - I'm not saying HTF if failing.  Just a rant....
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post #63 of 204
9/16/09 at 12:29pm
Thread Starter 
It's disheartening to think any HTF member might think we made this change for any other reason than we were trying to bring a better experience to the forum pages by giving more prominence to the forum listing by reducing the overall size of the navigational items. We actually moved the forum content up by about 10%, and we thought that would be good for members.

Our reasoning was that especially for a nav item where once you figure out where it is, you no longer need a big button, so it would be better to reserve the space for more forum content. We are addressing this issue, however, I think we went too far in the "minimal" direction.

I wanted to let you know that we tested this change with many types of computers, but I have to be honest and say we do not have a laptop with a stick-type pointing device in our test plan. There are many form factors we do have available to test (there are so many types of pointing tools out there aside from mice and trackpads) and I appreciate your bringing this particular problem it to my attention. Although this first release of the menu might have some executional issues, I'm confident we can solve your "too small to point to" issue, and much of the other feedback we received here and in the suggestion box.

I hope you'll be patient with us until we can update it.
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post #64 of 204
9/16/09 at 12:54pm
Please start testing with iPhones too! 
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post #65 of 204
9/16/09 at 1:03pm
Thread Starter 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Posten View Post

Please start testing with iPhones too! 

Sam, we don't formally or informally support webkit for mobile or other mobile platforms (iphone/android/blackberry) right now, but I'm not saying we shouldn't and won't in future. Currently, it's not something we've put time or resources into... it would be awesome to have a great iphone site or even an app, but that's a whole new product for the future. Great suggestion though, and I will add it to our list.
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post #66 of 204
9/16/09 at 1:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by benjamink View Post

Quote:

Hi Mark,
I'm wondering why you think it's more of a chore... it's still just one click to get the list, then one more click to navigate to the forum of your choice. Why does it feel like more work to you?

I see three weaknesses:
* violates user expectations for what a "link" does. "Links" are links to different pages. But this "link" is a menu activator. As noted by others, you have to know what it is to know what it is. There's no visual cue that this is anything but a link.

* Was removed from below the posts. After scrolling to the bottom in the course of reading the posts, you must go back to the top of the page, find the non-link link menu, and click it. Extra, pointless scrolling is now required for navigation; it's made harder.

* Requires more cursor motion and precision than a drop down menu. A drop down menu you click, scoll up / down the shortest path, and click the option. Now you must click the menu, mouse around up / down and left / right. And if you go diagonally, shortest path, you'll roll over a different menu and lose the desired target. So it forces you to go the long ways.
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post #67 of 204
9/16/09 at 1:59pm


Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveF View Post

* Was removed from below the posts. After scrolling to the bottom in the course of reading the posts, you must go back to the top of the page, find the non-link link menu, and click it. Extra, pointless scrolling is now required for navigation; it's made harder.

 

It appears below the posts and has since the day it was implemented.



Edited by Michael Reuben - 9/16/09 at 2:23pm
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post #68 of 204
9/16/09 at 2:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveF View Post
* Requires more cursor motion and precision than a drop down menu. A drop down menu you click, scoll up / down the shortest path, and click the option. Now you must click the menu, mouse around up / down and left / right. And if you go diagonally, shortest path, you'll roll over a different menu and lose the desired target. So it forces you to go the long ways.
 

That is the one thing I don't like about the popup and these types of sub-menu systems in general. It can be hard to stay focused on your current sub-menu. I think in the one sample I saw before release, you had it where all the forums were displayed in grouped areas without any sub-menu system. This was better, in my opinion. It puts everything front and center and within easy reach. The overall popup would need to be tightened up considerably to save space, but it needs that in its current version as well.
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post #69 of 204
9/16/09 at 3:27pm
I understand the argument that "once you realize it's there, it doesn't need to be big" but what about new members? Drop-down menus are universal. If I were just getting started at HTF and were on the fence about sticking around, the navigation system would definitely dissuade me.

Personally, while I have already reached the "I'm used to it and know that's how I have to navigate," I still have to look for it, but either way I don't like the format.

If the basis is that it reduces space and makes the actual posts higher, couldn't the drop-down menu at least be added at the bottom of the page? My preference of course would be just the drop-down menu but if raising the posts is that much of a big deal I could at least settle for that.
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post #70 of 204
9/16/09 at 3:28pm


Quote:
Originally Posted by benjamink View Post




Sam, we don't formally or informally support webkit for mobile or other mobile platforms (iphone/android/blackberry) right now, but I'm not saying we shouldn't and won't in future. Currently, it's not something we've put time or resources into... it would be awesome to have a great iphone site or even an app, but that's a whole new product for the future. Great suggestion though, and I will add it to our list.


this by far is the most icredible, disappointing and sad aspect of the whole move to me as (repeating myself I know) the old forum worked flawlessly on iPhone for years...
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post #71 of 204
9/16/09 at 4:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben View Post

It appears below the posts and has since the day it was implemented.
That's good to know: I've been looking past it for days.

But that goes to my point, that it's so visually non-distinct it's hard to find. It looks like a "link" and I'm scanning for a "menu".


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post #72 of 204
9/16/09 at 4:10pm

Lets keep this thread restricted to discussion of the navigation menu.  Please start a new thread for feedback regarding additional topics or use the suggestion box forum for suggestions/enhancement requests.

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post #73 of 204
9/16/09 at 5:17pm
My comment was specifically targeted at the forum nav.  This feature does not work on iPhone amongst it's many other major problems for me...
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post #74 of 204
9/16/09 at 5:30pm
Thread Starter 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Posten View Post

My comment was specifically targeted at the forum nav.  This feature does not work on iPhone amongst it's many other major problems for me...

It actually does work on the iphone... just not very well... you have to touch and hold, then it pops up an open button, click open, etc. etc.... i navigated fine with it... took a few more clicks, granted. Certainly not optimal for iphone, admittedly.
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post #75 of 204
9/17/09 at 8:02am
Fair enough.  Here is my suggestion tho, and I think it would be an easy fix, especially with the new layout you launched today.

Currently your Forum Nav line is taking up a whole line for three items.

Forum Nav <More Forums> | <All new posts> | <New thread>

I would add two new links to that and slightly change the order. 

Forum Navigation Options: <New Thread> | <All New Posts> | <Return to this forum top> | <Main Forum Listing> | <More Forums Menu>

Make it like this and I could safely ignore More Forums and have everything I need (almost) to replace how I used Forum Jump and you guys can continue to evolve More Forums for those who enjoy using it that way.
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post #76 of 204
9/17/09 at 11:07am
Is there a problem having the drop down menu placed back on the page (especially on the bottom of the page where I tend to use it after reading that last message in a thread)? That has always been my major navigational tool when going from thread to thread and forum to forum and, very importantly, it marks the threads you have finished as "read".  The alternative is to use the "Mark All Forums As Read" function which might not have the desired result if you really want to come back later to catch up in other areas.  I can appreciate the added functionality that the "More Forums" etc. format provides in terms of navigation but it really is not a replacement for the drop down menu functionality and actually makes things more cumbersome - especially for power users. 

What is wrong with keeping the new forum navigation structure (perhaps highlighting a little bit better) but also placing the drop-down menu on the right side at the bottom of the page as well?  That certainly shouldn't take up a lot of real estate and it would satisfy everyone's navigational needs. 

Just a thought to reach a middle ground here....
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post #77 of 204
9/17/09 at 7:54pm
I vote for that!  Also, should note, I visit dozens of forums and NEVER use Mark Read on any of them.  Ever.
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post #78 of 204
9/17/09 at 8:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RAF View Post

Is there a problem having the drop down menu placed back on the page (especially on the bottom of the page where I tend to use it after reading that last message in a thread)? That has always been my major navigational tool when going from thread to thread and forum to forum and, very importantly, it marks the threads you have finished as "read". 
I thought visiting the thread was all that was needed to mark it as read. That always seems to have worked.

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post #79 of 204
9/17/09 at 8:57pm


Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveF View Post

I thought visiting the thread was all that was needed to mark it as read. That always seems to have worked.

 

This is true as long as you then go to another thread the usual way (drop down menu or using the new navigational tools) - at least in my case.  However, if you visit a thread to read it and then back out with the back arrow in IE, then the thread is not marked as having been read.  My point was that without the familiar drop down menu for navigation your only two options are to use the new tools that some people object to or to back out of the thread (in which case it's still marked with a check as having unread posts).

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post #80 of 204
9/17/09 at 9:06pm


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Posten View Post

I vote for that!  Also, should note, I visit dozens of forums and NEVER use Mark Read on any of them.  Ever.
 

Thanks, Sam.  I should also point out that I don't generally like to use MARK READ either, but I sometimes use it as a final resort to keep things somewhat organized for me now that the drop down menu has disappeared.  I don't like this practice (because I might miss some things I didn't read in other sections) but if I'm on the forum for a quick visit at least I know that the threads I've looked at won't appear as unread the next time I sign on.  The down side is that so will everything else on the forum.
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post #81 of 204
9/17/09 at 10:58pm


Quote:
Originally Posted by benjamink View Post

Quote:

Hi Mark,
I'm wondering why you think it's more of a chore... it's still just one click to get the list, then one more click to navigate to the forum of your choice. Why does it feel like more work to you? 
Also, I wanted to let you and everyone know that to clear the menu you have 3 ways... click away, click close, or simple press your ESC key.

Please let me know why you think it's more work... just to reiterate the intention of this change was certainly not to frustrate anyone or make things harder! We made this change to help reduce the amount of space at the top of the page that was pushing the forum listings down further (user requested change). I'd be very interested to hear what you have to say about why you feel this menu adds work and we'll see if we can't address it!
 

It's just not intuitive to me. It took me forever to finally find the link and that was only after I went to this sub-forum. The drop-down menu may have taken up some minor screen real estate, but it was a very easy way to wade through HTF (where I don't spend nearly as much time as I used to).  Now, with all the nested forums, it just seems more difficult to find your way through.  It doesn't help that the "More Forums" link is in a miniscule font and is tucked away either right under or on top of forum posts, which, when activated, obscure the text. I get that it's a design and interface decision, but it's not one which which I'm particularly comfortable.
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post #82 of 204
9/18/09 at 8:44am
Thread Starter 
 We're looking hard at the Forum Nav to find ways to make the usage as seamless and easy as the drop down menu... our next code freeze is in a couple of days, and after QA, you'll see many improvements to the forum nav. Thanks for all of your feedback and thanks for you patience and vigilance in making sure the community stays happy.
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post #83 of 204
9/18/09 at 10:00am

Quote:
Originally Posted by RAF View Post

This is true as long as you then go to another thread the usual way (drop down menu or using the new navigational tools) - at least in my case.  However, if you visit a thread to read it and then back out with the back arrow in IE, then the thread is not marked as having been read.  My point was that without the familiar drop down menu for navigation your only two options are to use the new tools that some people object to or to back out of the thread (in which case it's still marked with a check as having unread posts).

 

Actually, it does get marked as read in the system, but just that IE itself does not realize it when you use the browser's back button.  When I first noticed what you observed, I thought the same also, but then realized that's not really the case.  It's a bit confusing nonetheless.

In general, using the back button (at least in IE) won't be 100% compatible w/ sites that use more "advanced" software for navigation and such.  That's just the nature of how the web works (at least for now).

_Man_
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post #84 of 204
9/18/09 at 10:18am
Frankly with how this site now remembers your last read position on a thread by thread basis, I just don't see the need for the "Mark as Read" function anymore. If I don't click on a particular thread for three months, it'll just come back to where I left off on that thread regardless of how many other threads I've visited in the interim. I think that's great. I say never mark a thread or forum as read unless you truly want to ignore some posts. But, then when you do finally visit that thread why not just skip over the posts you don't care about. So, why use the "Mark as Read" feature?
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post #85 of 204
9/18/09 at 10:33am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Buklis View Post

Frankly with how this site now remembers your last read position on a thread by thread basis, I just don't see the need for the "Mark as Read" function anymore. If I don't click on a particular thread for three months, it'll just come back to where I left off on that thread regardless of how many other threads I've visited in the interim. I think that's great. I say never mark a thread or forum as read unless you truly want to ignore some posts. But, then when you do finally visit that thread why not just skip over the posts you don't care about. So, why use the "Mark as Read" feature?

It's all just matter of preference.  Not everyone navigates the site the same way you do.   For instance, I almost never bother to use that forum nav dropdown as I prefer to know whether there are actual new posts in a subforum before I go there.  But in order for that nav approach to work, I need to mark each subforum (or all the threads w/in) as read when I'm done w/ it (at least w/ the way it works now).

Anyway, the software does mark the thread as read when you visit it -- it's just that IE doesn't realize it right away if you use the back button.  It's only the threads that you don't actually visit that won't get marked automatically.

_Man_
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post #86 of 204
9/18/09 at 1:13pm
Off topic its kind of interesting to see all the different ways people read the forum
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post #87 of 204
9/18/09 at 4:56pm
I didn't understand your point, insofar as I thought that threads were marked as "read" on visit. I didn't know any other action was required to trigger that, or that some actions could un-trigger it.

And since "Back" is broken in HTF 2.0, I guess you're kinda sunk

Quote:
Originally Posted by RAF View Post

This is true as long as you then go to another thread the usual way (drop down menu or using the new navigational tools) - at least in my case.  However, if you visit a thread to read it and then back out with the back arrow in IE, then the thread is not marked as having been read.
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post #88 of 204
9/18/09 at 10:30pm


Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveF View Post

I didn't understand your point, insofar as I thought that threads were marked as "read" on visit. I didn't know any other action was required to trigger that, or that some actions could un-trigger it.

And since "Back" is broken in HTF 2.0, I guess you're kinda sunk

 


_Man_ has pointed out that the fact that my display doesn't indicate a thread as being read if I use IE8's "back" button is an IE thing so perhaps that's why we are seeing this differently (I'm not sure what browser you are using). Adam G. correctly noted that members use various methods to read the forums so this is most likely the reason that what seems trivial to some seems important to others.  Different strokes for different folks. 

Buried in all this discussion (and mentioned briefly elsewhere here) is what is apparently a big step forward in marking threads read.  HTF 2.0 handles threads read on a thread by thread basis for future visits so these bookmarks are no longer tied to the last time you were on the forum globally.  I discovered this by accident and I find this feature a huge improvement over the HTF 1.0 way of handling things (at least in IE8, my browser.)  Thumbs up for that aspect.
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post #89 of 204
9/19/09 at 12:19am


Quote:
Originally Posted by benjamink View Post

 Our next code freeze is in a couple of days, and after QA, you'll see many improvements to the forum nav.

QA? 
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post #90 of 204
9/19/09 at 8:41am
Ok.  Looking forward to changes.  The biggest problem I have is here.  You get to the bottom of a thread, say page 3, and there isn't a way to return back to the same forum you are in without using the forum nav.

Something like what's on the top at minimum:

Home Theater Forum  ›  Forums  ›  Entertainment and Media  ›  TV and HDTV Programming

Example which would allow me to just click on "TV and HDTV programming" to take me back to a refreshed version of that forum I'm in is desperately needed.

Otherwise I scroll to the top to find it or swim through the nav.

That was the nice thing about the drop down.  When you'd come to the bottom, it new what forum you were already in.  So if you just wanted to go back to it after a post or reading through, you just click "go" and it took you right back.  


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