Check out the new forum nav! - Page 6

Could be.

Except that, as I explain, I have no problems with something like FF's bookmarks menu which acts in pretty much the same way.  I don't have the balkiness or hyper-sensitivity which finds me having to constantly re-group and re-set my cursor into the approrpiate master forum.

The FF bookmark menu also acts intuitively by opening out into the available display area and doubling back on top of itself when necessary.

I've been a member here for a long time and since the new software I find myself coming to HTF less often and for less time each visit.  Despise is not a strong enough word to describe my feelings about the More Forums nav.  Bouncing around the forum to read different areas should not be a PITA.  I'm entirely open to new ideas and UI's, but this particular feature does not work well, IMO.

Sad to say, but after 9 years HTF is no longer my favorite HT site on the net and, unfortunately, that opinion formed after a few months of using this new software.  Huddler appears to be doing an excellent job with this product; I just don't find said product appealing.

Mike,

There is a world of diff between the popup-fan-out menus on an actual Windoze application and the javascript(?)-based menus of the forum nav that needs to be handled at a separate higher level by FF (or any other web browser).  We're talking a likely order of magnitude diff in performance.

I just checked the CPU usage w/ IE6 on my old, but reasonably fast, desktop -- it's a 2.8Ghz Pentium 4 (w/ Hyperthreading) w/ 3GB RAM.  When I simply use the browser's own popup-fan-out menus (like file menu, bookmarks/favorites, etc), it uses maybe 1-10% cpu resource depending on whether the menu has static choices (0-2% for things like tools, file menu, edit menu, etc) or tons of relatively dynamic choices (3-10% for the tons of bookmarks/favorites I have).  When I try using the forum nav, it uses anywhere from 20-50% cpu even though it should behave more like a menu w/ static choices.

In fact, I notice that the responsiveness of the forum nav menu is rather mediocre even for me although it's not as bad for me as it apparently is for you.

BTW, now that I'm trying it again, I also find that the choice of contrast level, particularly for the focused/highlighted item at the sub-forums level, is pretty awful.  I don't know how most of y'all can easily make out what you're choosing w/ it, especially since the sub-forums level of the menu doesn't even register focus unless you actually mouse over the text of the menu choice rather than any part of the entire field (like at the top level).  Maybe this is just an IE6 issue, but it's pretty awful nonetheless.

_Man_

+1 to all of this. The point about having to accurately move the mouse right every time was one I made a long time ago, and it still pertains now. Trying to navigate between sub-forums here feels like one of those buzz-wire games where you have to get the positioning dead right, when it should just be a simple dropdown box that can be scrolled using the mouse wheel.

There's a reason why virtually every other forum I visit has such a means of forum nav.

Jonathan,

You bring this up on a very important day.

We have selected a small team of members to take
part in a screen share today with Huddler.  The purpose
is to improve upon the navigation system.  

Fixing the navigation here has become the most
important step on our roadmap.  We expect that
you should see significant improvements with the
next platform update. 

In the meantime, really appreciate you letting us
know how you feel about this.

Wow...

 ...I know.  Some people think the owners don't care.

We do.

 This thread is still going (I suddenly got e-mails that prompted me to check it out)?  I haven't been here in months and I see the "forum" still trying to be "Facebook".  After all the bitching (and common sense) did not work, what prompted this change of attitude?  I'm just curious....

David,

The goals of this platform is not to be Facebook.  Not
sure where you are getting that from.  We feature Facebook
integration that can be turned on or off by the member.
Nothing more.

As far as change of attitude, we have always wanted to
perfect the navigation.  The problem has always been that
there were other more important matters on the roadmap
that were prioritized.

However, we have come to the point where we want to
make a push for features based on member suggestions.
Nothing has ranked higher in that regards than navigation.
This is why Huddler has decided to gather a few of our
members and look at the ways they navigate through our
forum so that the navigation system can be enhanced
accordingly.

Now, I have a question for you, Dave.  Out of curiosity
why haven't you been here for months?  Have you been
going elsewhere?

Thanks for stopping in.
 

Since I seem to be clueless how to break your quote apart and reply, my replies are bolded below (should it be this hard to figure out???).

Ron, This is mention on some thread in this section. Just today, the reply box cannot be written into. One has to hit refresh. This has happened several time today as with other people. Also I tried edit one of my posts and could not do - there was  somnething like "please wait". I could not stop it other than deleting the window and start again. This has happrned 2 of 3 time today. Something happened yesterday - it only has happened once - it perhaps is not a HTF software error BUT yesterday I was typing in a PM and had gone a few lines and then suddenly there was false characters on the screen of my Firefox 3.6 browser. I hit the "A" key and get some other symbol. It was ok on other non-browser windows. I then shutdown Firefox and restarted it and then everything was OK. I don't know if this was a HTF software error or not. But is is clear there have been some Huddler untested updates recently. Also, whenever the next update comes, don't do it on a Friday unless the people stay for the weekend. As a programmer, I never made big updates but rather smaller ones and test to make sure they work. I was not a quick and dirty which appears to be the case with Huddler.

Ron,

I don't really doubt you care despite my complaints.  And I do understand about priorities and such w/ software dev -- as that's how I make a living as well.  Like I suggested previously, perhaps, the problem is at least as much about managing user desires/expectations (and delivering satisfying results) as anything else.  That's something that a lot of software development people (and probably plenty of business owners too) don't really understand -- and that's why solid marketing and PR (rather than mere fluff) can be as important as anything else in the real world.

People don't love the iPod because it could do everything afterall.  Throwing in the kitchen sink is not the answer.  The success of the iPod (and iTunes) is *both* design/engineering and great management of user desires/expectations.

When in doubt, follow the KISS principle -- rather than make things overly complicated (and failure-prone) like that More Forum nav for instance...

_Man_

And BTW, having a vision is important, but not all visions can be realistically fulfilled at a given point in time.

The tiny little company I worked for in my first job after college failed after a decade-plus of success (and milking its formerly-pioneering time-share IT system for millions-per-year) precisely because the owner had too much vision for what could be realistically accomplished at the time.  He tried to go for too much w/ a single new app that he wanted to work well on the then-new i486's all the way down to the lowly i286's(!) that many small businesses still used in the early 90's -- and w/out different builds for each to boot(!) despite the seriously huge gap in memory space between those platforms.  And the result was a catastrophic failure.

Just remember.  KISS is your friend...

_Man_

PS:  Having said all that.  Please don't make the site completely unuseable for IE6 either -- at least for the basic forum stuff.    Thanks.

Vision is fine if you don't forget the core.  Add all you want, but don't forget what really pays the bills.

Look at all the examples of companies that diversified themselves to death.

This horse has been beaten enough by me today.  

Man,

Very much appreciate you recognizing the fact that the owners
and Moderators here do care.

At this point I am not certain what to say.  The development of
this platform is out of our hands completely.  Under vBulletin if
something needed to be fixed we could usually do it ourselves
that same day.  WIth Huddler, it's an entirely different ballgame
that concerns levels of priority and where they lie on the roadmap.

I do feel that we, the owners and Moderators have made a
considerable effort to relay your concerns to Huddler.  Over the
past two weeks we have intensified communication about member
concerns to the point that Huddler has scheduled a screenshare
with members.

We understand the frustration around here.   We have our own
personal frustrations as well sometimes.  On the other hand, I
can honestly say that we have a belief in our long-term goals
with this company.  It's just going to take longer than we had
hoped to get this platform up-to-speed.

Usability under that browser version is probably
never going to be improved.

There are a lot of websites that no longer support
that browser.  People should upgrade to the latest
version.

Now I realize some people have no choice.  Where
I work, I don't.  My company still uses Windows XP
and IE6.  Using this forum on IE6 is a horror.  However,
I do realize that I am in my workplace.  At home,
I make sure I am using the most current version of
my browser.   

Quote:
I think there are very few people who believe that.  Those that do are probably those that haven't stuck it out, not those of us who have made countless suggestions in quixotic attempts to try to point the way forward as we see it.  If WE didn't care we wouldn't have bothered.

I do believe you in that the changes you implemented had to happen in order for HTF to survive as a commercially viable forum.  But I think your ability to influence the platform doesn't necessarily match what you used to have, no matter how much you care, and even if your influence is great today that will slip further over time as the platform grows.  I remain very much suspicious of hosted forums and of the Huddler 'vision' in particular.  I think hosted forums are a bad path for the forums as a whole to travel down...  I know I'm but one tiny voice in this, but I know what I do and don't like in a forum and what I the consequences are of this new trend/technology, and I'm not encouraged by this specific forum software implementation on top of that.  BUT I have heard you say that you believe that will come along in time and am encouraged by your post from this morning, that was what the wow was about from my end...  So here's hoping....

Sam
Edited by Sam Posten - 2/23/10 at 8:26pm

Agreed.

I too plan to stick it out as long as possible -- I'm actually more patient (or rather, persistent) in this stuff than I may appear at times.

I have no plans to go anywhere else for HT-related forum discussion -- I actually *used* to drop by the other couple well-known HT forum sites some years back, but I like it here much better for regular visits (even now despite the new platform quirks and broken search function).

IF I do disappear from here in the forseeable future, it would *NOT* be to switch to some other HT-related forum site.

And while I understand and accept that this site will never provide 100% support to IE6 (and also may not fully support most other mobile browsers for the forseeable future), I'm fine w/ that as long as the most basic stuff still works ok enough, which is the case so far.  I don't need fancy stuff for forum visit -- I rarely even bothered to use the nav dropdown before.  I prefer to approach the forum w/ the KISS principle in mind, and I'm willing to work around issues for the most part.  I could probably even be happy enough just going back to the antiquated (moderated) usenet newsgroup model or similar, if that works for y'all.  

Anyhoo, Ron, your further explanations (and the little extra bits from Sam) certainly do help here.  But like Sam, I do hope things will work out well for HTF in the long run.  I'd hate to see things go south from here on out.  I remain cautiously hopeful here...

Best regards,

_Man_
 

I think sometimes we focus on the negatives, and there are positives to the change which I do like.  I think as time goes by, the review indexes and gear allows us to keep better track of everything - including how durable / long lasting items are.   It provides some great things.

 

That having been said, traffic her has seemiingly died down... a lot.  Posts can happen in the morning and sit for a very long time and there isn't a big list of back and forth.  The site traffic may be going up, but the post count seems to be fairly static.  In comparison to many of the other forums I frequent, this seems fairly slow moving.

That's not good or bad, it just is what it is.

There are some issues that I feel have needed addressed for a while and we just aren't making progress on, two of which I think are super-simple and just don't happen (breadcrumbs on the bottom is my biggest sticking point, rather then having to go to the top of the page to just go back to the root of a forum group.. and yes, there is the "More Forum" nav, but quite frankly, it sucks, and I end up back at the entire forum list as often as not)

I'm here for the long haul.  Too many things I like, and incredible posters in forums.  There is no thread in my daily "enjoy" list that even ranks with TerryRL's contributions in the Movies forum.  I'll show up here for that alone.  Along with some great reviews, commentaries, etc.

My one other complaint remains:  for as great as reviews are - and there are some really incredible HTF reviewers who put incredible time & effort into their work, I am completely over "reviews" which are one sentence.  There needs to be a standard against that, because they "bump" new, good reviews out of the list of current reviews, while telling the reader nothing.

I think we also need to think about the issue that Homesound brings up.  We have dozens of people coming here each week wanting immediate gratification on pre sales decision or post sales trouble shooting.  Often without any intention of sticking around long term.  And they are getting a bad taste for HTF when their immediate gratification needs are not met and the regular posters simply ignore their pleas at best or worse get tired of answering the same things over and over again and then never seeing these posters become part of the family.

So what can be done to convert more one-shotters to long-termers?  I'm willing to do my part to welcome folks and answer their questions but I'm not going to waste my time with posts riddled with bad spelling and no introduction when it's clear we are being used here...

"Homesound," Sam? 

I would think being "used" goes with the territory.  But for every dozen one-or-two-post new members, maybe we can grab one and convince him/her to stick around for awhile. 

Since most of us acknowledge the various points-of-interest that keep us at the HTF are things like civility, camaraderie, full names, etc...I would think maybe those things will attract the desired first-time users to hang out and check things out.

It's in another thread in this forum.  Sorry, I should have put a link to it.  This thread will likely live on after his inquiry does:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/forum/thread/298450/under-a-rock

I agree with your points Mike but I have seen other forums flame out due to the kinds of issues addressed in that thread.  Perhaps the Forum Nav thread wasn't the best place for me to repeat it, but at 170 posts its the definitive 'this seems to be where we are talking about big issues' thread these days.

Full Names was the first thing that got my attention and made me realize this was not like other forums.  I thought it was a great idea.  It certainly kept the 'one timers' and 'trolls' away. Unfortunately this went out the window a few years ago.

I thinki part of what helps get rid of those "one-shot" is that in many other forums, they maintain several "FAQ" threads right at the top of forums.  Like:

 

"Recommended Hardware as of January, 2010" just a post to links of reviews and threads with positive recommends.

It gives people lots of information very quickly, which is especially important here, as the search function in garbage... eg, the other day I couldn't find 'Favorite Youtube' thread, I searched and in the search it was five pages back.  I could have went back fewer pages on the After Hours and just found the thing with Mozilla's "Find in page" function.. again, making it easy for people to dredge up dead threads.

I'm just now posting to this thread because frankly I just discovered that it existed.

I have no problem with the more forums button. Navigating it is simple and I have no problems putting my mouse in the right place to select the place I want to go. Besides the larger list is still there if you want to use it.

What I do have a problem with, is the fact that you can't right click and use context menus in this forum. I'm dyslexic, and use the right mouse button for spelling correction on the fly all the time. Every other forum I go to, I can correct my spelling errors with the mouse, right in the edit window of the forum. NOT HERE. Here I have to copy and past anything I've written in to Word, correct the spelling there, then copy and paste it back into HTF. All using the keyboard short cuts because I can't use the mouse to copy and paste. Now it does give me a message about needing to changing me security settings, but my security settings are set the way they are for a reason, and I'm not changing them to be able to use a lousy forum.

In addition to this the forum is DEADLY slow in loading the adds on the side of the page, sometimes making it almost impossible to navigate anywhere. I mean the new site is slow anyway, but with a complicated add it just drags. By the way I'm using Firefox V3.6 and am on a VERY fast quad core machine with a very fast internet connection.

This makes my desire to use this forum, and visit here very low, almost to the point that I really don't want to come here anymore. Now perhaps that would make some people happy I don't know.

Doug

Edit:
One more point. If you simply use the Forum tab at the top of the page to navigate, the actual listings of forums never seems to be in the same order twice. Some times the high def forum is 3 blocks down, sometimes its six. It makes navigating what should be a simple list of forums very confusing and annoying.

Doug:  On THIS point, I can tell you that the owners, just a couple of days ago, changed-up the forum & sub-forum lists (re-naming and re-titling some of the sub-forums) and then re-shuffled the order of the sub-forums last night in order to prioritize the more popular forums to the top.  Things should be settling down now for a while. 

The issue of right-clicking has been asked about a number of different times.  I'm not sure that there has been a definitive answer given by the software team about why it's done that way. 

Hold the control key down and right click to get the spell check back.  There is also a built in spell check (click the ABC button).  The control solution is a PITA, but it works.

Hmmmm thats interesting, but its being going on for weeks. Have they been changing the order sometimes 2 or 3 times a week?

Well the obvious answer is they don't want you to be able to use context menus. Though why that would be an issue in a forum I don't know. Its not like they are trying to prevent people from downloading copyrighted images or something.

Basically its just one more thing that makes using this forum annoying. This place used to be a lot of fun, but now just using HTF is drudgery.

Doug

Nope.  Just this week, AFAIK.

And, again, AFAIK, the Huddler team hasn't yet said why they have chosen to do this.  But it's been asked several times.  I know it is one of the things that drives Sam Posten nutty.  But then there's so many things... 

Word