The Fugitive: Season 3 Vol.2 - Page 3

Having absolutely no music at all (in lieu of the Mark Heyes replacement music) would have been worse than the Heyes stuff, IMO. Much worse.

At least Heyes made an attempt to mimic the original 1960s-style music. I think it was overdone at times, with the horns blasting way too loudly. But to have NO music at all where there should be SOME music (esp. during the chase scenes) would be simply laughable. I wouldn't be able to stand it.

My review of Season 3, Volume 2:
http://www.Amazon.com/DVP-Fugitive-S3,V2/review/R3I1KKCWWF2PZJ

http://www.DVP-Potpourri.blogspot.com/2009/12/fugitive.html

VP, hey, good to see you post.

Agree on the music vote, if we'd have had a chance to vote.  I'd reluctantly have chosen Heyes subs vs no backscore.  These shows just wouldn't work to carry a scene without it, imo.

Ditto on this software.  I like the old HTF software so much ("Vbulletin") that, where there had been a choice of formats, I've sought out that software on a couple of other unrelated forum Bd's where I'm a member.

I suppose it wouldn't work so well in the case of this series, but I think it's a suggestion they should follow in the case of My Three Sons as long as they still insist in butchering the audio.

The Heyes stuff just pulls you out of the experience with their two MTS releases, it doesn't benefit it in anyway. So a mute option would be beneficial.

Can anyone tell me if if I buy S2V1 in store, will I receive the "corrected" disc or is it now too late to receive replacements for this set? Is there any way to identify this version in stores?

I'd given up after the 1st season release and didn't intend to purchase any other sets due to the Heyes cues controversy, but I was given a gift certificate to a local retailer and since it's not on my own dime, I'm considering finnishing off the first three seasons...

It's good to see Mr. Von Pein's review posted at Amazon and linked here.  I don't know how I missed seeing them back when posted, but it's probably due to this much-maligned newer HTF software.  (I too am no fan and prefer the older vBulletin style.)

But of THE FUGITIVE, I am a fan, and have been enjoying and savoring the Season 3 Volume 2 set.  Just today I watched the excellent "Stroke Of Genius".  It's funny; I wasn't looking forward to the episode based on older memories of it.  In my hazy memory, it was a vehicle for Telly Savalas to chew up the scenery, but it turns out it's far different from that.

Mr. Savalas is indeed a powerful presence, but in "Stroke Of Genius" he's somewhat muted from his typical larger-than-life filmed persona often is.  And I'd totally forgotten the presence of Lt. Gerard in this episode, which came as quite a pleasant surprise. 

Harry

In case anyone might be interested, here's a link to my new "Fugitive" blog (with all six DVD reviews, plus photo galleries, music excerpts, and other things):

http://www.The--Fugitive.blogspot.com

After reading some of the reviews on S3V2 on Amazon, I pretty much lost interest in "The Fugitive." I didn't even buy S3V1 although I know that set retains much of the original music. I was upset to learn that a lot of the Rugolo music was inexplicably replaced on S3V2. I've moved on, so to speak. Did anyone else out there throw in the bag on this because of the music? It seems there are a lot of people out there who have given up on it. I'm looking forward to other classic TV shoes on DVD now like "Thriller," which is coming out later this year.

As a fan who didn't see it originally I'm therefore not really familiar with the original score, other than knowing it now and liking the show/Janssen of course, I still only have S1 so far. Therefore pondering if the hated music replacement in S2 will be too sore thumb distracting for a newbie, someone not raised on it.

Well those who have not gotten S2 V1 via the replacement trade-in route will be at a disadvantage since only the original 100% replaced version is available for purchase.     You may want to bypass that one and resume with the next set of episodes.

I'm not familiar enough with the show to know where music is changed but there's a few spots where it's obvious that synthesizers are supplying the music. While I wish they kept the original score, the new score didn't bother me enough that I hated the show but it certainly wasn't 100% seamless.

Jim, What I did was compromise with the Fugitive releases.  I have been getting the CBS sets for Christmas and birthdays so I haven't been spending my own $$'s for those sets.  I use those sets for backups and watch the show with my alt set.

Henry and others not familiar with the original airings of the show:

You probably will not have a problem with the Heyes music subs.  As for me, I'm also a first-time viewer of the show but after comparing some of the CBS episodes to my own set as originally aired, I chose to watch my own set after the S1 CBS sets.  I found that, overall, the music subs were a problem for me with this show.

My take on this is that, if you are a 'Boomer and grew up with that era's TV shows' music scores, you may have a problem with the CBS sets.  I think this is why I have a problem with the music subs since I like to watch shows of this era with the original backscores intact as they (imo) reflect the 60's age of drama TV shows.  I feel this way about the subs regardless of my not being familiar with the show before the DVD releases.

When I compared the "Moonchild" episode, it was an easy call to shelve the CBS sets and use them only as backups down the road.  The music subs in that episode change considerably (imo) the mood and effect of that episode.  "Man on a String" was another episode that was changed by the music subs, enough for me to shelve the CBS sets.

Has there been any word on Season 4 releases?

I surfed all over the net and found nothing. My feeling is the fourth season on DVD will be dominated by Heyes. The fourth season relied a lot on music from "The Outer Limits," but neither CBS nor Paramount owns the rights to "The Outer Limits." I could be wrong, but I don't see CBS paying for the rights to use music from "The Outer Limits." With that in mind, my bet is the fourth season will seem a lot like the first version of S2V1, which was all Heyes.


My brother bought S3V1, and I could borrow it from him, but I just lost my interest after reading about S3V2. I don't see the point in watching it anymore when the full enjoyment factor has been irreparably disabled, in my view.

I totally agree with you, Jeff, on how the music subs really altered the viewing enjoyment for some episodes. On the S2V1 replacement set, there were quite a few episodes that were unaffected, but then there were some that I could never watch again. For instance, "The Iron Maiden." That episode was loaded so much with Heyes that I could not stop thinking about it the whole time. I have no desire to watch it ever again. I don't own an alternate set that includes the original music so I'm out of luck on that front.

CBS really played a number on fans of "The Fugitive," I must say. It was like they kicked us down, then picked us back up, then kicked us down again, and then picked us back up only to kick us down one more time. It will be interesting to see if they end this journey by kicking down fans two more times in a row with the final two volumes. What a shame.

I have to be honest the word of mouth about S3 V2 having a higher level of replacement music than apparently any of the sets put out in the last year (excluding the original S2 V1 set) dampened my desire to go through the episodes after I got the set.      But tonight, because I'd watched several episodes of Antoinette Bower in other shows, I decided to see her appearance in "Coralee."

Imagine how dumbfounded I am to be 20 minutes into this episode and there is not one and I mean NOT ONE speck of original music.    It has been non-stop Heyes from the get-go.    This is so far like listening to an original release S2 V1 episode where only the credits are intact.  And what's worse this music is all synth and makes no pretense of even remotely sounding like something you would hear in a 1960s show (synth sounds clash because they sound like they have been layered over the original image and are not a part of the natural sound mix), which is a further testament to Heyes total lack of talent as a composer and the tin ears of the people who thought he was appropriate for this kind of thing.

I am now unfortunately in the worried camp for S4 that we will not be hearing the Outer Limits cues that comprise the bulk of the S4 library music, though for me personally since I am not familiar with any of the episodes specifically other than  "The Judgment" my only real concern is that please, please do not alter "The Judgment" in any way, shape or form.

A fate worse than death should await the people who screwed up the original cue sheets that caused this problem to begin with because if the records had been detailed like they were for S1, we never would have had this problem to begin with.

An addendum.   After finishing "Coralee" and hearing non-stop replacement music except for the tag and one other brief spot, I think CBS/Paramount should REALLY start doing some explaining as to why this scattershot approach keeps happening with these episodes because this is no longer a case of something where one can feel confident they are even making a good faith effort to see to it that as much original music is present as possibly can.     I was willing to give them a pass on S2 V2 on the grounds they did that first and were working their way into some familiarity with what was okay and what wasn't but there is no excuse for this kind of giant step backwards.   They either have some terminal idiots handling certain episodes or else they are fearing legal repercussions from Mark Heyes if they don't use x-amount of his crap in a given set.     The only way a rational mind could come up with this level of scattershot is for them to be saying, "Okay, we'll leave these episodes alone, these will be blended and if we do one or two with all of his stuff, we'll cover our bases with him."

I finally threw in the towel on "The Fugitive."  My hopes had been risen by the s-2/p-1 replacement set, but the follow-ups just finally wore me down.  The replacement music just continually kept disrupting the tone and flow of the episodes for me.  "The Fugitive" constitutes one of my top two or three favorite tv-series of all time, and it just killed me, watching these and finding myself holding my breath, not knowing when the next loud, bombastic and decidedly-modern cue would intrude, and totally derail my little viewing experience.  I found myself not even finishing my s-2/p-2 set, but I did purchase and view all of the episodes on the s-3/p-1 set.  When I read the reviews of s-3/p-2 and about all its replacement music, I didn't even bother to buy it.  Like I said, it just wore me down.   

I agree with Bert and Jack.  I have the CBS sets only as a backup on the shelf for that reason.

That is thoroughly disturbing, Jack. There were quite a few S2V2 episodes that were dominated by Heyes junk, but I do not believe there were any that were completely saturated by Heyes ala the original S2V1 release.



It would be an absolute crime to ruin one of the top-rated television events of all time like "The Judgment," but I, too, fear that is going to be the case. I really do not understand why CBS is doing this. It does not make any sense whatsoever and there is no explanation to the consumer.



Bert, that is how I feel. I cannot deal with it anymore. There is no sense in trying to watch it anymore because it has been completely ruined. I find myself discussing it on here because I guess it is almost like an unsolved mystery that I want an answer to, e.g. Bigfoot and UFOs.

    Quote:

I feel exactly the same way, Bert.  And this show is my #1 favorite of all time, so attempting to swallow this pill is extra bitter.  There really aren't any words to adequately express my sadness and frustration in this matter.  It's been clear from the get go that these things need not have happened and this entire fiasco could have been easily remedied by CBS/P with less cost to them than the route they took.  I seriously doubt anything will ever top this as far as "worst memories about TV on DVD" in my lifetime.  This has been nothing short of a travesty.

Gary "think back to how this board lit up with discussion during those 1st Season releases vs. everything released since - it's really pathetic" O.

Even as someone who has come to this as a relatively new fan, I completely echo Gary's comments and the comments made by others.  I sat down the other night to watch "The Survivors," an episode I'd heard great things about.  Maybe my ear is off, but this sounded like nearly ALL new music.  Any tension during Kimble's attempt to escape the police outside the Waverly home was sapped for me.  "The Fugitive" used to be a show I tore through on DVD...now I almost have to force myself to watch.

As regrettable as the music situation is, I have to say I still enjoy watching the show. The music is integral to the show and Paramount/CBS has diminished the effectiveness of the show, but they can't strip away everything that was enjoyable. It's still one of the finest programs ever on TV, and I look forward to the remaining two volumes - preferably with the music intact!

Sam, I can agree with you for the most part, especially when the worst thing to put up with is a "blend" of music in an episode.     Until S3 V2 we have never had to worry about more than 40% of an episode being mucked up by replacement music, which at the least telegraphed to me that on the whole enough of the original sound was being allowed to stand intact.     But being greeted to one episode that was non-stop Heyes from start to finish (except for two tiny Rugolo cues) was a jolt I wasn't prepared for and it's got me veering more into the pessimistic realm about what they're going to do with those Outer Limits cues for S4.    As I've said, it's not really the whole of S4 that concerns me it's "The Judgment".     I think up to now the thing that's relieved me is that through S3 almost all of what I consider to be the "key" episodes of the show are ones that have been left intact with minimal to no changes (the one exception would be "The Survivors" which is a 50-50 ratio type).    Hearing almost nothing altered in "Landscape With Running Figures" was I'll admit the thing that gave me the biggest relief because I do feel that if I can watch again and again to my heart's content the "core" episodes of the series with no worries, I can feel reasonably good.    If "The Judgment" ends up altered with those pulse-pounding cues in the final Kimble-Johnson confrontation on the  tower and the great up tempo cue as Kimble, Gerard and Chandler walk away at the end of Act IV and the camera pulls back missing (a cue I have also BTW heard recycled in episodes of "Rat Patrol"), *that* is when my level of outrage will finally reach the level its done for others.    I don't even want to imagine some of these Heyes chase cues that have been bad enough to take in many earlier episodes ruining the climactic moment of the whole series.    Granted I have a DVD transfer from the old VHS release I can watch instead, but this last episode is something I would love to see in the pristine video quality that CBS/Paramount has been giving us along with the original sound and that would be the one thing more than anything else that could sour the whole experience for me.     I could over time learn to accept the other episodes with their altered scores just so long as I have the reassurance that the last and most important remaining episode is unmolested.    

In all this time we have been gnashing our teeth on the matter of music replacement and rights ownership of library music etc. maybe one question that should be asked is this:   Exactly why did Quinn Martin think that "The Fugitive" should be the only show that I know of in the annals of network television that relied *entirely* on library music for its entire run?     I have not come across a single instance of a TV show in this era other than "The Fugitive" that did not feature at least some episodes with freshly commissioned original scores to then draw from later on.    

I mean let's face it, if the show had just built up its own diverse library of music from 5-6 original scores for one season mixed in with what Rugolo did initially then I think the show would have been just as good as it was and today we'd be hearing its underscore totally unchanged today.

I don't think they had any real concerns even with the original music. They were never going to have people coming out of the woodwork accusing them of utilizing music and cues that they didn't have the rights to. There isn't someone sitting on the rights of the Capitol Music Library  decades later waiting for their ship to come in.

It was some CBS/Paramount lawyer, that in the drive to protect his/her $500/hr position and validate their importance to the corporation that discovered it and then the overcautious legal department decided it was too risky since they couldn't detirmine who owned what. Other series used audio from the same sources and have been released without expensive lawsuits (Family Affair comes to mind for the Capitol Music Library ).

And as far as I know, The Fugitive didn't rely on library music entirely. That's part of the reason for the outroar. Things such as music composed by Pete Rugolo specifcally for this program is often also being edited out along with music from things like the Capitol Music Library.

Would've never happened before the merger with Paramount.

What's really crazy is that, after the Season 2 Vol. 1 replacement set was announced, CBS made it appear that at least all of the Rugolo would be intact. From what Jack and others have said about S3V2, it sounds like Rugolo cues have been pulled in many instances along with everything else.

I'm totally with Gary about this going down as the worst memory of a TV show getting released on DVD. I borrowed my brother's copy of S2V2 recently (I refused to buy my own after reading the reviews) and was appalled at some of the changes, many of which are massive.

Like many others here, I waited years for this to come out on DVD. When it finally did, I was ecstatic with the high quality of those two Season One volumes. The only complaints anybody heard at the time about those first two volumes was that there were no bonus materials. Little did anybody realize that a much larger problem was about to rear its ugly head. Up until the S2V1 debacle, CBS in my view did a pretty decent job with some of their TV show DVD releases like "The Wild, Wild West," and "Mission: Impossible." Of course, CBS lost all my respect with the release of "The Wild, Wild West" complete series box set. That set included two "Wild, Wild West" TV movies that weren't included in any of the individual season sets. That means CBS tried to double dip. Only the most hardcore WWW fans were buying the season sets when they were getting released. Instead of including the two TV movies in the final, Season Four set, CBS opted to hold that for the complete box set. Basically, they made it so fans of the show who had already bought the individual seasons would have to shell out an additional 80 to 100 bucks for the two WWW TV movies.

If CBS is capable of something like that, it makes one wonder why the company continues to dish out these ruined versions of "The Fugitive." Is it because the long term plan includes re-releasing it again down the road with the music fully restored? They know a lot of people will pay again to have this series in its original format.

No.

I realize that, but the point I'm making is that what Rugolo did was not per se a score for the pilot episode in which the music was scene specific to the episode, it was really for all intents and purposes composing a set of library cues for the series that in the sum total of just one scoring session amounted to the only original music composed for the series.    That wasn't the norm for any TV series I know of back in the day, in which the usual procedure would be to supplement that material with original scores from the many gifted composers of the day who were cutting their teeth with individual scores for many episodes of 60s TV shows.      "Star Trek" for instance would have about a third of the episodes for a season featuring a new original score by someone which you would then intersperse with cues composed for previous episodes and then other episodes would be tracked entirely with music initially composed for the series itself.      The question I have is was Martin just so determined to cut corners that he didn't think it was worth hiring a Jerry Goldsmith or a Fred Steiner or even bringing Rugolo on again to do something fresh for another episode?       If he had done that, then "The Fugitive" would have been comprised entirely of music unique to the show itself, and thus years later no one would be concerned about any needless licensing issues at all.    That's all I'm saying.

I just watched the "Cora Lee" episode from videotapes from A&E from 1990 - 1991.  This episode features almost no music generally associated with The Fugitive.   The score is very strange.  I don't condone the music being changed because it's just not right but it's not like there is a lot of Rugolo music being erased here.  It's a weird episode.

Like others, I have given up on these DVD's, as the music issue is too much to take.  I accepted the Season 3, Volume 1 DVD but there are apparently too many changes on Vol 2 for me to make the purchase.  It is a shame that CBS has ruined this wonderful series.  Personally, I don't care if they release season 4; I'm not a buyer.

Steve Lecher

I wonder, Steve, if the music from Coralee in the original version you watched might have been from "The Outer Limits?" I know "Outer Limits" music was used heavily in the final season, but I don't know if it was used, perhaps sparingly, in the previous season?

Just "no?"