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El Cid & Fall of the Roman Empire Blue Ray Release in Germany - Page 2

post #31 of 64
Hello John,
I am pretty sure that this is the same mix as for the Weinstein DVDs, but the sound is indeed captured lossless on the Blu-Ray. So still rather little use of the surround channels, but now at 24/48 DTS HD MA.
post #32 of 64
I see The Beaver's updated the review hapharzardly, without making reference to where the info came from!

Better than nothing.

M
post #33 of 64
If there is an appreciable increase in sound quality by use of a lossless  track, to hear Rosza's magnificent score that way, may be a sufficent reason to upgrade. I 'll have to think about it!
post #34 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Anthony View Post

I see The Beaver's updated the review hapharzardly, without making reference to where the info came from!

Better than nothing.

M
 
Others wouldn't change a thing but Gary who did the review really has the kind of open mind that at least allows him to put in the addition so this is OK with me.
post #35 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by john a hunter View Post

If there is an appreciable increase in sound quality by use of a lossless  track, to hear Rosza's magnificent score that way, may be a sufficent reason to upgrade. I 'll have to think about it!

As all the EL Cid DVDs were rather weak even the suboptimal Blu-Ray is the one to get if you watch the movie the next time around. The difference in sound to the Weinstein DVD is not something I would be sure to pick up in a double blind test but the picture is noticably improved.
post #36 of 64
Look, I hate to be the one to ask the stupid question, I'm just watching this on DVD and really enjoying it and thinking about whether I want the Blu ray... And after rereading this thread I realise that we haven't yet had confirmation from someone who's seen this film in 70mm whether it accurately represents it. I read RAH's comment that some people might actually think this is the way its supposed to look, but I'm just wondering if Robert or someone else can just definitely confirm that the dream-like appearance and colour scheme of this movie on DVD and Blu Ray is not true to the original film.
post #37 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Cheshire View Post

Look, I hate to be the one to ask the stupid question, I'm just watching this on DVD and really enjoying it and thinking about whether I want the Blu ray... And after rereading this thread I realise that we haven't yet had confirmation from someone who's seen this film in 70mm whether it accurately represents it. I read RAH's comment that some people might actually think this is the way its supposed to look, but I'm just wondering if Robert or someone else can just definitely confirm that the dream-like appearance and colour scheme of this movie on DVD and Blu Ray is not true to the original film.

I have watched theatrically about 2 dozen movies that were shot large format and none of them looked like El Cid does.

The lack of detail and texture is at least as problematic to me as the weird colors but the proper and intended colors of the Eastman Kodak prints from the 60ies are not known to me for this movie and I can only extrapolate from newer prints of Patton, Lawrence of Arabia or Spartacus when it comes to assessing the color scheme of the Blu-Ray. As has been discussed in other threads there are no 70mm prints of El Cid that remain with colors that come close to what they looked like almost 5 decades ago, the prints have all turned to different shades of pink.

But as imperfect as it is, the Blu-Ray is the version to get if you like the movie and want to see it in its best version for the home as of now.

And regarding RAH and his strong words regarding this Blu-Ray: From what I have seen most of the time he chooses not to comment on inferior product but with El Cid he did - that should tell you something about the problems with both the Blu-Ray and the DVD.
post #38 of 64
If you like the DVD, the Blu-ray appears, based on the captures to have more detail. El Cid is a problem in that there is no other version available on DVD. This is not like Gladiator, where you can keep the old DVD if you don't like the new Blu-ray. The only other release of El Cid is the Criterion laserdisc which is based on the same print/master as the DVD/Blu-ray. If I had an all-region Blu-ray player, I'd get the Blu-ray of El Cid, because I just like the movie so much.
post #39 of 64
That's all quite helpful regarding El Cid. But has anyone got any comments about the BD of FoTRE or any news of a possible release of 55 Days?
post #40 of 64
OP and friends ordered both epics on Blu ray from Germany, and I refer you to Oliver's original response after first viewing them for the fact that El Cid is said to look, if anything, better than FOTRE. I suppose my most recent question was a bit redundant, but I guess I'm just going on past experience that these particular 60's epics have always looked pasty and cartoony on home video, and I just wanted to hear from people who have seen them on the big screen how different the experience was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OliverK View Post
I have now gotten both El Cid and Fall of the Roman Empire... Regarding the quality the Blu-Rays are clearly from the same HD source as the DVDs that were released earlier in the Miriam collection so what we get is improved resolution for both chroma and luma compared to the DVDs, the color balance looks to be very much the same.

Seeing El Cid first I was a bit surprised that Weinstein dared to show this kind of quality in a cinematic setting last year. The colors, as with the DVD, are still very problematic and fine detail in faces, fabrics, rock or vegetation is not at the level it should be.
 
Contrary to the DVD versions of both films I did not feel that the Blu-Ray of Fall of the Roman Empire was much better than El Cid with regard to detail but as with DVD the color balance is improved. 

I had certainly hoped for more with this title if not for El Cid but the problem of pasty faces and other surfaces with the absence of fine detail remain and I found the forum scenes very much lacking because of this.

As almost always these are still the versions to get for collectors that want the best that is currently available and the discs should provide a noticable upgrade for them despite their shortcomings. For others I would suggest a rental.
post #41 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Cheshire View Post


OP and friends ordered both epics on Blu ray from Germany, and I refer you to Oliver's original response after first viewing them for the fact that El Cid is said to look, if anything, better than FOTRE.

 


El Cid offers more of an improvement over the DVD version. In absolute terms FOTRE still has a better color balance but it has about the same (low) level of detail as El Cid.

This should not be mistaken for a not noticable improvement over the DVD. There definitely is a noticable improvement and if this is the sole criterion for a purchasing decision the Blu-Ray is the version to get for both FOTRE and EL Cid.
post #42 of 64
I have just heard that Weinstein has sold its video  back catalogue to Vivendi.I'm not sure what that means for the Bronston classics both released and unreleased.
post #43 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by john a hunter View Post

I have just heard that Weinstein has sold its video  back catalogue to Vivendi.I'm not sure what that means for the Bronston classics both released and unreleased.

I just hope that we will NOT get more HD masters like the one for El Cid and FOTRE !
Now that these two have already 'happened' it would probably be futile to expect anything else being done about them anytime soon but when Circus World and 55 Days are revisited I would expect more and refuse to buy anything that is not a significant improvement in quality over what we got with the first two releases.

It is one thing to have everything prepared and to still go through with it after all the money has already been spent but there is no excuse for doing the same mistakes again, imo.

Apart from that it has been pointed out before that usually the copyright holders are the ones who should take the proper steps to both preserve their movies and to make them available in proper quality for a release on both Blu-Ray and DVD. Neither Weinstein nor Black Hill/Spirit Media or Vivendi are the companies that should have do anything in that regard.
post #44 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by john a hunter View Post

I have just heard that Weinstein has sold its video  back catalogue to Vivendi.I'm not sure what that means for the Bronston classics both released and unreleased.

I don't think that means much. Vivendi already distribute the Bronston titles on DVD in the UK through their Universal UK subsidiary and the quality is abysmal. 
post #45 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by john a hunter View Post

I have just heard that Weinstein has sold its video  back catalog to Vivendi.I'm not sure what that means for the Bronston classics both released and unreleased.

Weinstein only signed a distribution deal with Vivendi to distribute their catalog DVD's.  This does not cover current and future film product (Basterds will be released on DVD by Universal).  Weinstein had a similar deal with Genius Entertainment which Vivendi acquired this past Tuesday.  I am sure this agreement was to just dot the i's and cross the t's.  It will still be up to Weinstein to release any upgrades in El Cid and FOTRE or release 55 Days and Circus, so do not hold your breath.
post #46 of 64
Screen caps for FOTRE are finally up on DVD Beaver, and there seems to be a lot better detail and less waxiness than on the El Cid caps; bearing in mind that in motion Oliver and others' impressions were that El Cid was better... I'm confused now, because based on these caps, I feel like the quality is quite superb on FOTRE, with good contrast and rich colour palate, with only that loss of detail appearing in some of these caps. It certainly looks like a massive upgrade from DVD. I don't think the copyright holders would feel the need to redo this one, if it looks this good in motion.

http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDReviews15/fall_of_the_roman_empire_dvd_review.htm
post #47 of 64
The problem is that however superior FOTRE looks to El CID, it should be among the best looking BR available, rivalling imax, due to the UP70 photographic method.

However Ben Hur turns out on BR next year, this should look as good as, and i'll wager that BH willl look much better and sharper...and that's not even making allowances for the fact the around 0.5:1 of the image is missing....

M
post #48 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Cheshire View Post

Screen caps for FOTRE are finally up on DVD Beaver, and there seems to be a lot better detail and less waxiness than on the El Cid caps; bearing in mind that in motion Oliver and others' impressions were that El Cid was better... I'm confused now, because based on these caps, I feel like the quality is quite superb on FOTRE, with good contrast and rich colour palate, with only that loss of detail appearing in some of these caps. It certainly looks like a massive upgrade from DVD. I don't think the copyright holders would feel the need to redo this one, if it looks this good in motion.

http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDReviews15/fall_of_the_roman_empire_dvd_review.htm


Ben,
 
as you have written it twice now I have to point out that I never wrote that El Cid looked better than FOTRE.
I just said that El Cid was more of an improvement over its DVD version (which back then was inferior to FOTRE).

I also fail to see how the pastyness that is still very evident in the Beaver captures would bring you to think that this can be considered good enough - we are talking about a resolution that sits at about half of what is possible with this movie on Blu-Ray.
It would have helped if Gary had posted caps from panoramic shots as that would make the problems much more evident.

As Mark has pointed out: When properly done the Blu-Ray format will not be capable of doing justice to the resolution that is in the negative of FOTRE. And to add to the Ben Hur comment: FOTRE was shot with better lenses than Ben Hur and should look even better than that one.

If you want to know how detailed FOTRE could look just take a look at HTWWW or one of the recent movies with very high resolution, like Hancock or The International.

Maybe I will get lucky and be able to post a grab from a 70mm print of FOTRE, that should clear up some perceptions about how this is supposed to look. That should look impressive despite the fact that the print has even been through an optical printing step to go from anamorphic to flat - it extracts only 80% of the negative area.

Until then: The upgrade over the DVD is of course noticable for FOTRE and the Blu-Ray is now the best version available on home media, but as the resolution of the Blu-Ray is so severely limited I would not want to call it massive. 
post #49 of 64
I can't wait for Ben Hur and Lawrence of Arabia in that case; but I won't hold my breath for them to redo FOTRE/El Cid; something tells me these titles aren't on anyone's priority list at the moment, while they're working on flagship titles.

Apologies for misrepresenting your comments, Oliver. My comments were designed to magically improve the image quality of FOTRE Blu Ray. Just wishful thinking I guess.

I have How the West Was Won (HTWWW), and was impressed by the image quality, less so with the movie. :(

However, I thought some people were worried about EE with that title? Obviously there has to be some digital techniques used, because the film had to be transferred onto a disc; but I just remember reading some people had found it distracting. Can't remember who now.
post #50 of 64
Ben,

it is my guess that chances for adequate (from the OCN or IP) Blu-Rays of El Cid and FOTRE are slim to non-existant at the moment unless somebody who is very rich donates the necessary funds to get things done.

No problem about the El Cid/FOTRE quality. I could probably have said it clearer but I wanted to emphasize that I had expected more of an improvement from FOTRE.

HTWWW is sharpened to an imo unnecessary degree in the smilebox version. You can see that clearly by comparing it to the standard version in the digipack. It is not that visible as there is so much fine detail that the sharpened edges stick out less than they would with most other movies.

I will not comment on the movies themselves as everybody has their likes and dislikes. A certain person with a big website dedicated to movies for example hates FOTRE with a passion :)
post #51 of 64
Hey Oliver,

Yeah, liking and dislike something can be so personal, it means so little, since i only saw it once. I'm so glad you said that about the sharpness being on the smilebox version, because that's the only version i watched; I was just curious about the gimmick, had to check it out; but I should definitely go back and watch it unmanipulated for sure.
post #52 of 64
Went through both El Cid and Fall on Blu-ray this weekend. Having seen the caps over at Beaver there were no surprises with regards to image quality. What you see is what you get :-)

Still, a nice upgrade from the Miriam DVDs, I suppose. They even retained the commentaries.

Some notes:
Both movies have a 50i startup logo on them, but everything else is 60i or 24p.
The movies default to German DTS-HD MA 5.1 and all menus are in German as well.
The extras disc is DVD only, and all the extras have been systems-converted to PAL.

Both covers are reversible, omitting the huge ratings logo on the front but otherwise identical on both sides. Nice touch.
post #53 of 64
In 70 mm, in San Francisco, EL CID was the sharpest and most detailed of all the (many) 70 mm films I saw, when you take the backgrounds and the long shots into account.  The color was rich and darkly beautiful in most scenes, and brilliant in others, but always plausible.   The only film that had sharper close-ups was the 70 mm version of BEN-HUR, and only in facial shots, not backgrounds.   Almost all 70 mm presentations in S.F. were beautiful, and significantly better than 35mm, even in cases in which the 70mm print was a blow-up from a 35mm negative
post #54 of 64
Thanks Gary. I kind of knew that would be the case, but I know I asked someone to confirm it, and yes its still nice to hear it.
post #55 of 64
I saw a vintage print of Fall last Sunday and despite the usual fading the picture was spectacular due to the incredible resolution of the 70mm print.

This print was right up there with the best opf its time, very impressive.
So anybody who says the Blu-Rays look the way it does because the movie never looked that good must not have seen it with a properly projected print.
post #56 of 64
[Can't seem to get rid of the big print ... sorry]

I should add the following to my last post:
 
Virtually all  movies I saw presented in 70mm in San Francisco, San Jose, and L.A. back in the '50s, '60s and '70s (I counted about 50, when including 70mm prints blown up from 35mm,  35mm full-frame horizontal, and 55mm) had better detail than any Blu-ray I have seen.
 
Year of origin did not seem to be a big factor, except there was a noticeable increase of crispness starting in 1959 with Sleeping Beauty and Ben-Hur (but not Porgy and Bess, also in '59 --- and one might want to exclude Sleeping Beauty, since cartoons are photographed under ideal conditions).
 
Even 70 mm prints that were slightly softer in perceived acutance still had extraordinarily high apparent resolution.   For instance, Phileas Fogg's carpet bag in Around the World in 80 Days (1956) was so detailed that you could almost smell it.
 
These films had a "reach out and touch it" quality, and several critics/commentators of the time used those exact words.  When the Todd-AO bunch projected test footage showing two couples at a picnic on a makeshift screen to convince Rodgers and Hammerstein to make Oklahoma! in 70mm Todd-AO (they did, in 1955), either Rodgers or Hammerstein said, "I felt like I could reach out a take a doughnut," and the other one said, "And then, both girls" (remember, this was the '50s).
 
Several of my circle were amateur photographers (& one professional).  We agreed that 70 mm projection of the '60s was higher quality than we got with our 35mm double frame cameras (including a borrowed super expensive Leica), and mysteriously rivaled -- and sometimes seemed to exceed -- larger format still photography.  We rightly or wrongly attributed this to the fact that, in movies, as opposed to stills, the brain was given many samples from which to synthesize a more detailed image. 
 
Several 70mm films had a super crisp etched quality. 
 
The only two 70 mm films that I know of that were re-released for longish runs in 70 mm (Ben-Hur in 1968, nine years after its premiere, and Sleeping Beauty, later) held up beautifully. 
 
Although today's film emulsions are technically much better, projection tends to be darker and smaller, and not necessarily sharper appearing.   Old 70mm tended to be sparkling bright, due in part, I'm told, to the larger hole in the aperture plate, and, of course most theaters used carbon arc lamps.  Arthur Knight, in The Liveliest Art, used the word "sparkling" to describe the look of 70mm Todd-AO in Around the World in 80 Days (1956).  There was an enhanced sense of depth in 70mm, even though the ultra wide angle lenses that would be expected to increase depth were rarely used.   All in all, 70mm projection was a far more immersive experience than we get today.   
post #57 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by garyrc View Post

[Can't seem to get rid of the big print ... sorry]

Done it for you. 


Cees
post #58 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by garyrc View Post

 
Although today's film emulsions are technically much better, projection tends to be darker and smaller, and not necessarily sharper appearing.   Old 70mm tended to be sparkling bright, due in part, I'm told, to the larger hole in the aperture plate, and, of course most theaters used carbon arc lamps.  Arthur Knight, in The Liveliest Art, used the word "sparkling" to describe the look of 70mm Todd-AO in Around the World in 80 Days (1956).  There was an enhanced sense of depth in 70mm, even though the ultra wide angle lenses that would be expected to increase depth were rarely used.   All in all, 70mm projection was a far more immersive experience than we get today.   

Gary - did you see Cheyenne Autumn in 70mm? That was one of the very sharpest and brightest 70mm film I saw. I remember a review in the London Times saying it seemed like you could see every grain of sand and entreating people to see it at the Warner theatre which was the only place to see it in 70mm. Other 70mm films which I remember as being especially impressive were Those Magnificent Men in Their Flying Machines, Mutiny on the Bounty and It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World.

We have certainly gone backwards as far as cinema projection and presentation is concerned.
Edited by Douglas R - 10/11/09 at 11:07pm
post #59 of 64
Thanks, Cees!

Douglas R:

No, I missed Cheyenne Autumn in 70mm.  I saw it in 35mm, and was dismayed to hear a local critic call it "Cheyenne Awful,"  because I liked it.  The sharpness and detail you allude to is one of the things I loved about 70mm.  In Ben-Hur , in close ups, and -- seemingly --- in some medium close shots you could see detail in every sweaty, gleaming pore.  At the time, there was a great deal of bragging about "rare earth lenses" used in MGM Camera 65 (made by, or made to order ? by Panavision).

What is the difference between the amply exposed facial pores in brand new movies seen in theaters today, and those in many 70 mm movies in the past?   In a word, brightness!  

The other films you mentioned had great image quality, even if Mad Mad was not as funny as it could have been. 

We haven't mentioned the sound. The 6 track magnetic sound, reproduced with tube equipment often sounded better than some rather harsh digital tracks of today.  I would put the warmth and dynamics of the Around the World in 80 Days  (1956) 70mm sound presentation up against any modern soundtrack.  The 114 piece orchestra didn't hurt.  Sadly the quality didn't come over too well in the DVD.  I can't imagine them using a limiter, or dynamic range compression, but it sounds like they did.  The irony is that the dynamics actually came over better in one of the two VHS HiFi versions, in which some of the soundtrack was damaged and had drop-outs!  In 70 mm (in San Francisco), the dynamic swell of playful but grandiose music just before the intermission was very impressive.  That was probably one of the reasons the audience clapped so heartily at that intermission.  Something helped that movie play well into its second year in 70 mm at that theater, necessitating equipping another theater down the street for 70mm to show South Pacific, which was waiting in the queue.   
post #60 of 64
 As with Gary, I too feel there was nothing like seeing a 70mm presentation back in the day and I saw them all.  You just can't explain to people what it was like.  And Gary hit the nail on the head and it's amazing to me that more people don't talk about this - carbon arc projection - better brightness, better, truer bluer color than anything being shown today with today's lamps.  

West Side Story in 70mm in its original run was astounding, as was Ben-Hur, King Of Kings, Mutiny On The Bounty, anything in ToddAO and, of course, El Cid and Spartacus.  And the showmanship back then (totally gone today) treated these films as they should have been treated - as events.  Curtains.  Overtures.  No advertisements.  Respect for the artform and the audience.  
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