Steve Sansweet talks BD 6 film Star Wars and more - Page 2

Any other series we can have a conversation about what we'd like to see in a home video release without getting lectured by true believers. You like it, good for you. Some of us sinners haven't seen the light and just want some old movies to come out in a nice presentation. Pretend we're talking about about wanting a good transfer for The Black Hole and spare the lecture.

Then you obviously haven't read my posts very well, since I am talking nowhere about "evil motives" or "he raped my childhood". I am just talking about much hyped products which did not fulfil what a lot of fans were hoping for.


Yes, and I am in for the entertainment, and I am NOT BEING entertained when I see 1997/2004 CGI in a 1977 film. It's only a BUSINESS as long as there are people BUYING your product. You did buy it, I did not. What I am giving here is merely a business recommendation for future releases to further increase the potential market penetration. ;) Sometimes, it helps to listen to your customers.


Oh absolutely nothing. If he feels he can improve on something, well, let him do it. The cutting edge of DVD/Blu Ray technology right now is releasing every single version of a particular film in good looking transfers. So with this upcoming Blu Ray, Lucasfilm has all the possibility to regain their reputation for being the industry leaders in home video technology. I'm a whore for quality and more than willing to pay the price for it (waves with his Euro bills). ;)


Well, then what's the problem, when we are basically on the same side? Live and let live I say. We both just want the best product for our money.

It's nevertheless interesting to see what treatment THX 1138 recieved, compared to Star Wars. OBVIOUSLY, it's not all about business. ;)

Well considering that the DVD boxed set of the original trilogy is among the best selling DVD sets of all time, I think Lucas probably knows what he is doing with regard to business.

We are on the same side with one exception. I am of the opinion that they are Lucas' films and he shouldn't be subject to the whims and wants of the fans. He made the first film the way he wanted (with in the limits of technology and money) bucking the opinions of just about everyone else involved including the studio that put up the money. Why should he start listening to the opinions of others now.

No I'm not a Lucas film employee. I'm an independent filmmaker

Doug

Considering that there are numerous CGI changes to THX, I'm not sure what you’re talking about?

The really sad part of all this is that it could be done right. Look at another 1977 film that's already out on BD, Close Encounters. That set has everything; all three cuts of the movie, a nice film-like transfer, and decent extras. There's no reason the same couldn't be done for Star Wars.

Are you sure you are not a Lucasfilm employee? ;) Because you talk like one, proudly defending a product which has been much criticized among fans, and which surely hurted their reputation as an innovative leader in home video technology.


Again: you have obviously been living under a rock, since he DID release the original versions in 2006.

How does this, combined with the fact that he reworked the, as he said at the time, perfect 1997 versions again in 2004, comply with your theory that he always made the films the way he wanted, and that he absolutely does not need to listen to his fans, since he is an artist? ;)

Again: so much for artistic integrity, and not needing the fans.

Lucasfilm is a business. Star Wars is a business. I am a willing customer whore to buy a definitive Blu Ray set. You are... an independent filmmaker defending a multimillion dollar business.

Those CGI changes and the Lowry restoration process were quite expensive. Not really a clever business decision for an obscure $700.000 dollar film which flopped in 1970. I sense a lot of love involved in this project.

Much criticized among fans, I think  you mean among fanboys. There is a difference.

 

Yes but he released a 10 year old analog transfer of the films. He obviously felt that there wasn’t a large enough market to justify spending several millions of dollars restoring the original versions of the films ( or at least the first film).

 

Who said anything about art. I didn’t.

 

I’m an independent film maker. Why shouldn’t I defend another filmmakers right to make money with his work.

Doug

Of course. THX was a very personal project for Lucas. Star Wars wasn’t. I don’t see any contradiction at all.

Doug

Yeah, but you got it completely backwards. Fanboys are those speaking on behalf of George Lucas (a person they do not know personally) and attacking other fans who, as customers, have valid criticisms against a much hyped and anticipated product.


Nah, a new transfer from an old print would have been completely sufficient. I'm sure they could have matched the quality of other anamorphic transfers of highly important works of science fiction from that period. For example the 1980 Flash Gordon. ;)

If it's not about art, then why are you repeating this Lucasfilm PR BS ("Oh, I am an artist, this 1997 er... 2004 versions were those movies I always envisioned, but were not able to do back in 1977!")

Obviously, giving his films to the public for free was not the topic of this discussion. I'm all for making money with Star Wars. I'm giving tips here how they can make even MORE money. ;)


Edited by Oliver_A - 8/2/2009 at 09:49 pm GMT

Well, glad we have pointed that out. I don't see any contradiction either in this scheme. ;)

Since it's not personal, I'm sure that nice transfer of the original unaltered trilogy in HD won't hurt his artistic ego too much.

Edited by Oliver_A - 8/2/2009 at 09:48 pm GMT

I don't think you would be happy with a transfer from a print of the original cut of Star Wars. Very few are left, and those that are mostly pink salmon colored. There would be very little of the original color left. Prints of that era do not hold up well. Flash Gordon was not transfer from a print.

Again I said nothing about art. I'm not one of those who think that film making is inherently an art. It sometimes rises to that level, but not very often and not by design. There is however pride in your work, and Lucas clearly isn't to happy with the 1977 cut of the film. He said as much at the time.

I'm not sure the investment in restoring the original cuts of the films would be a money maker. It might, but then again it’s not a version of the film that the filmmaker likes, so why would he bother.

Look if the studio or some other person were messing with the films, I would be right there with you bitching about it. But this is the guy who made the films in the first place.

Doug

hmm.. star wars in HD.. the big debate.. I have them already in HD.. with recording from HBO years ago.. all 6 movies, letterbox and commerical free.

no waiting for me.

Jacob

Yet another Lucasfilm PR myth repeated. There are good prints left, and I am more than sure that Lucasfilm has the best existing elements in their vaults.

From what source did they remaster the original 1977 crawl, which looks very good (despite being non-anamorphic)?

The BFI has reported (as an answer to the 2006 PR message from Lucasfilm) that they have very good Technicolor copies from the first film.

For someone who claims to be a fan of the originals, you surely repeat lots of Lucasfilm PR BS.


We all know what he said over the time. And how much he repeatedly changed his opinion. How much pride he has in his work is for anyone to see who has watched the 2006 DVD'S.


Ask Charles De Lauzirika about the Blade Runner 5 DVD disc set. I guess we must commend George Lucas for not whoring out to the wishes of his fans, and strictly provide, as any filmmaker with an artistic vision, only Laserdisc transfers of those films who made him famous. ;)


So what? Are you trying again to prove to me that your taste is superior to mine?

The Special Editions could be approved by the Pope or the United Nations. It still will never ever change my mind about them.

As always, this discussion is getting quite tiresome and pointless.

My point remains: Blu Ray edition with original films = $$$ALE for me.

Edited by Oliver_A - 8/2/2009 at 10:25 pm GMT

Huh? Like I said, he's spent the last 15 years of his life working primarily on Star Wars. He could have written a rough outline for the prequels, gave it to a writer and director, had them make the movie and then he could have sat back and cashed the checks. Instead of doing that, he spent 10 years working on them and has continued to work on more Star Wars related projects when he could have passed them off. That sounds alot more like love than business to me but you can think whatever you want.

Clearly you don't know anything about the state of Eastman film stock from the mid 1970. All release prints made in the US would have been of this film stock and would not have a quality image left on them. This is not PR, this is the sad fact, and a huge problem with most films made at that time. The film negatives are not in much better shape. Not until about 1982 or 83 do you start getting a low fade film stock from Eastman that would still be in good shape today. 

I don't know what BFI is, however there have been rumors that there were Technicolor IB prints made in England for the original release, and they could be in good shape. However there doesn't seem to be any record of such prints being made. Prints made by Technicolor are not necessarily IB prints.

The prints made in 1977 would be the property of Fox (and would likely have been destroyed long ago) not Lucasfilm as Lucas did not yet own the film. The negative is now owned by Lucasfilm and have been altered for the special editions.

Doug

As much as you can think whatever you want. For me, the love for the original films (and that's what I am writing about) is practically non-existent. How much love he has for the prequels, I neither do know, nor do I care much about it.

Well we've managed to get you up to 100 posts! ;-)

Oh goody.  Another thread of Star Wars yet again descending into "Lucas owes us the originals" and/or "Lucasfilm is a business".

Bottom line.  They are his creations.  

Yes, I want the originals.  I also enjoy the newer cuts.  I'd like BOTH on BD.

Some people love the Special Editions.  Others hate.  None will convince the other.

Can we move on now... before there are 20 pages of this yet again...

Just sayin. 

If anything what you say would be true, then from what source did Lucasfilm master the original 1977 crawl for the 2006 release?

There are still good prints left. Lucasfilm most probably have the best elements in their vault. You are repeating their marketing BS that the original versions don't exist anymore, or could only be restored for DVD with high expenses.

Besides, a print, even if made in the 70's, still looks a lot better than this 1993 Laserdisc transfer, plagued with lack of sharpness, DNR and reduced vertical resolution in some scenes due to doubled scanlines. As a PAL user, I am more than delighted that the NTSC master was upscaled to fit PAL resolution, although there are native PAL masters which were made for the laserdiscs.


BFI is the British Film Institute. They have reported that they do posess copies of the original films in good shape.

Sorry, but again, you sound like a Lucasfilm PR stooge. There were remasters done before the 1997 special editions, they most probably still have good prints in their vault. The 1993 definitive collection was mastered from a 35mm IP struck in 1985. The PAL laserdiscs for example, were sourced from a different, good-looking print, than the NTSC US versions (fans have compared framing and print defects). The japanese LD's were also sourced from a different print. It was reported that the 1997 colour correction was done using a Technicolor dye print as a reference. The 2006 DVD has the original crawl in good quality, never before seen on ANY home video release.

Sorry, but all evidence strongly points against you and the ridiculous statement Lucasfilm released in 2006.

As I said, I don't care if you love the Special Editions more than the original versions. But stop trying to legitimate your personal taste (as if it needs any legitimation, because taste is purely subjective) by spreading this phoney urban legend that the originals are lost. They are not.

Edited by Oliver_A - 8/2/2009 at 11:14 pm GMT

I can't vouch for its validity but I've read that the credit crawl for that was recreated via computer. Whether you believe that the original prints have all decayed or not, wouldn't it have been easier to make the few changes to the existing SE credit crawl rather than go back to the original for it?

Black and White RGB separations were made. I don't know what else they'd be good for if not this.

I KNEW THAT ONE OF YOU WOULD SAY THAT.

I can give you several timecodes (PAL) which show little black dust specks on the frame in front of the yellow crawl. Also, the crawl is slightly shifting horizontally before the star background.

Sorry, but this crawl is real. Is was transferred for this DVD from a real film source. And not only the crawl, but also most probably the star destroyer sequence following it, until the next cut. They had to do this, because the 1977 crawl has a different star pattern in the background than the Episode IV crawl.

Edited by Oliver_A - 8/2/2009 at 11:32 pm GMT

A lot of people have verified the 1977 crawl on the 2006 DVD as real. The lettering, spacing and timing is 100% correct, the star pattern is 100% correct, it shifts horizontally while in motion and again I noticed the dust specks, which are 99.9% evidence that this crawl is indeed the real deal from a real film source.

If you don't believe me, I can give you the PAL timecodes.

Because the original credit crawl was created at and by ILM, it existed in their vaults along with all of the other effects shots. The original camera negative however belonged to Fox and was in their possession  until Lucasfilm acquired ownership of the film in a deal surrounding Return of the Jedi.

All of which has nothing to do with release prints which are another matter. You don't generally do transfers from release prints, because they would have far too much contrast to do a proper transfer to video. Shadows would go completely black and whites would be blown out. And again release prints from that era would be missing most of the yellow layer by now.

 

This is not propaganda from Lucasfilm, it’s the nature of the film stock available in the mid 70’s

Doug

Using a Technicolor print for a color reference, doesn't mean that it is in good enough shape to do a complete transfer from. I could be missing frames or whole scenes.

Doug

My understanding is that the separations were done improperly at the time and not checked.

All of this is irrelevant. I never said the film couldn't be reconstructed. I said the owner doesn't want to. Thats pretty much the end of the story.

Doug

Things change, who knows what could happen. What is the big deal anyway? This sentiment isn't going anywhere, you'll just have to try and get through life reading about it. On internet forums you click on.

It seems you know a lot about WHAT exists in their vaults and WHERE it is stored....

And yet, all Laserdisc transfers made in the 1990's had different film sources. Obviously, there ARE prints (or other quality sources) still left which are good enough for a transfer. Not only in 35mm but also 70mm. Perhaps not as good as the original negative, but still FAR AHEAD of a 1993 NTSC laserdisc transfer.


You ARE contributing to this ridiculous propaganda that the original trilogy can be considered "lost films" and that there are no quality sources anymore to make an acceptable transfer.

The best source available from the original trilogy is NOT a 1993 NTSC laserdisc video transfer. They most probably still have good elements of the originals in their vault. Again, the BFI has claimed that they have good quality prints of the original films.


Umm, YOU were the one who started questioning the state of the source materials. The decision whether Lucasfilm WANTS to go this route isn't the end of the story, but a completely DIFFERENT story.

Fact is, THEY DID transfer parts of the original film elements specifically for the 2006 DVD. They did this because lots fans WANT the original versions. So the question whether there is a possibility for the original versions on Blu Ray, might very well be determined by how the fans and the press will react to Lucasfilm's plans to an upcoming Blu Ray release.

It took a long time for the original version of Close Encounters to be released on home video. Finally, fans got it on the Blu Ray editions. I think this is perfectly possible with Star Wars aswell. The old arguments from the past aren't credible anymore.

Edited by Oliver_A - 8/3/2009 at 01:10 am GMT