The Fugitive: Season 3 Volume 1 - Page 4

Robert, while I can't speak for everyone else, I believe I can safely say that if it was ONLY those pesky Capitol cues that were replaced, 99% of us would be fine.  We know it's those scant few Capitol Music cues that are in question - and that's understandable.  Those cues were rarely used and most of us could probably handle a few seconds of replacement music each episode.  The problem is that CBS/Paramount not only excised those few Capitol cues from each episode, they also excised all the CBS Library music cues - the ones they actually own!!!  It was those CBS Library cues (from shows like the Twilight Zone) that comprised the vast majority of the non-Rugolo backscore in THE FUGITIVE.  And those need not have been replaced.  Get those CBS cues back in, along with the Rugolo (of course), and all will be right with the world again.  At least that's my take.

Gary "there are people in L.A. that could, and I'm sure would, help CBS/P determine which cues are from their own library and which are a part of the Capitol library" O.

Jack P wrote:



Well, nobody needed to have an advanced copy of "Bonanza" to realize all of the original music was intact. CBS/Paramount touted that long before the Season One sets were released.

As for the equivalent of the heartache felt the day S2V1 was released, it certainly could be comparable, especially if S3V1 turns out to be anything like the disgraceful S2V2.

Regarding how much clout a community like this has, I believe the replacement program for S2V1 was spurred by Home Theater Forum, but mostly by Amazon, where a good brunt of consumers turn to fulfill home video needs.

If S3V1 is anything like S2V2, the response on Amazon - save about 25 percent favorable reviews from CBS apologists and cronies - will be predominantly negative. If the set mirrors the Season One sets or even the S2V1 replacement set, I suspect most reviews on Amazon will be positive.

I have repeatedly argued that the reason why S2 V2 was likely less up to the standards of V1 replacement was because V2 was done *first* and thus V1 represented a more thorough attempt to put the right music back in.     It simply makes more sense that replacement work on V1, which was not going to get a wide distribution, would have come *after* the set that was going to get the big rollout.      I'm frankly surprised more people aren't willing to consider this possiblity. 

And as for "Bonanza" the others in this thread are right.    They're trying to differentiate this set from the PD releases were music replacement is an even bigger matter than the Fugitive S2 V2 was.

Whoa, Hoss! To say music replacement is "an even bigger matter than the Fugitive S2V2 was" is way off base. I can't imagine how music replacement is a bigger issue with "Bonanza" than it is for "The Fugitive." At the very least, the two issues are comparable, but what CBS did by inserting Mark Heyes stuff was way over the top.

On the other hand, I do agree with you on your other point, that CBS had more time to work on the S2V1 replacement set than S2V2. That certainly is a possibility. Hopefully, that is the case. But even if it is the case, what does that say about CBS? That they were deliberately sloppy just to turn a profit?

Hopefully, the Season Two debacles are an anomaly, and the subsequent releases will be on par with the Season One volumes.

This may be a really stupid question, but wouldn't the Public Domain episodes of BONANZA have the original music?  I mean, haven't they just been recorded from TV broadcasts?  So what is so special about CBS claiming "original music"?  Haven't the PD episodes had "original music" all along?

I'm not sure what the details are, but some (or all?) of them are missing the original theme song, a music substitution that even casual* fans would notice.

*i.e. people who don't post on forums like this one.

 because the music publishing retained its copyright even if the episode fell out of copyright - especially when it comes to a show's theme song. So in order to release it as PD (and not pay anyone)

You know, this whole situation may turn out to be a large money-making boon for CBS/Paramount. If the remaining sets still contain Mark Heyes substitution music, lots of fans will be upset and some won't care too much, but many people will likely still purchase them.

In a few years, it is possible the legal issues with Capitol get addressed, and CBS could release the entire collection again, this time with all of the original music intact. Like they have with the "Bonanza" sets, CBS could make a big deal about how the new version of "The Fugitive" retains all of the original music.

Many of the fans who purchased the original DVD sets would then pay again to finally obtain the musically unmolested sets, thus providing CBS with even more money for "The Fugitive," money it would not have received if not for the concern with the Capitol Music Library cues. Maybe this was CBS' plan from the beginning? If not, maybe it became the plan when CBS realized how important the original music is to the fans?

I don't understand the thinking that they're not going to advertise that the original audio is intact because it would mean admitting previous products still on store shelfs are inferior to the average consumer. 

If a consumer was pleased and unaware of what went on with season 2, they're not going to bat a eye at something like a DVD label for this latest release proclaiming that all original audio is intact, because as far as they were aware, it was always like that.

It in no way, shape, or form is a notice on the season 3 package of audio being intact admitting that season 2 was a inferior package that unwary consumers should avoid. If it was even spotted by the average consumer unaware of this whole mess and they compared it with a season 2 release next to it on the store shelf and actually noticed the message and paid any attention to it, they'll probably just going to write it off as the packaging of the series evolving. Any television series on DVD will usually have pretty wide varations in everything from art style, packaging, and even what information is present on the packaging from season to season.  

What it would do is show fans that were aware and care about the issue and withholding their cash at the moment,  that they're admitting it was an inferior product and took steps to rectify the situation with future releases and we can now start buying their releases again.
 
And it would prevent things like prerelease comments at Amazon retail pages and such warning consumers, who would otherwise be unaware of the issue, that they're looking at an inferior product. I fail to see how proclaiming that things have been rectified with a release at a site like TVShowsonDVD, a slip from an insider at a few forums like this, or the mention on the packaging that things are intact (Even if it's just the removal of "some audio has been changed for this home video release" and such in small lettering on the back of the package), would be anything but postive for sales.

The absence of any word from CBS is proof postive in my opinion that things haven't been rectified and we can expect more of the same. It just doesn't make a lick of sense that they'd of taken efforts to make sure future releases didn't have substantial audio edits, and not get the word out to help sales and word of mouth among the fanbase that would largely be responsible for early sales.

Edited by LeoAmes - 9/15/09 at 10:42pm

The problem with this argument that rests on the notion that since Bonanza packaging highlights the audio but Fugitive doesn't, then ergo, Fugitive will still have mostly replaced audio, is that it keeps overlooking the matter of the *existing PD releases of Bonanza* and that a grabber is *needed* to make the uninitated realize why CBS/Paramount's version is the one you need to get.   

No, your looking at this too narrowly.

We've talkimg about the complete absence of any word from CBS/Paramount in any form about the issue, it's not just merely based off comparisons of what is and isn't there that is on Bonanza's DVD artwork. 

The lack of any information from CBS/Paramount is proof enough for me that the audio has been modified like we've come to expect. It doesn't make any sense that they wouldn't be getting the word out among the fanbase of this show that they can expect the situation to be rectiifed with this new release. People aware of previous issues, which viewed them as unacceptable, are witholding their cash until they hear what the verdict is, besides a few brave people willing to take the chance on the hope its fixed.

Why wouldn't they be letting us know one way or the other? Letting us know that audio is intact will largely have no effect either way on the average consumer, prevent a few people such as Amazon reviewers from scaring off unsuspecting consumers with the rating, and get a lot of fans to be buying now rather than waiting to see what happens.

Only possible answer I can think of is because the issue remains, and they hope a few hopeful consumers that are willing to take the chance, despite knowing what happened with previous releases, will buy on day 1 on the false hope it might be fixed. who otherwise would withold their money if CBS announced substantial audio edits had to be done.

I'm just glad I'm not really a fan, I'm just an interested bystander that is concerned about similar issues hurting possible future releases of My Three Sons (Both volumes of which were butchered just like The Fugitive, when season 1 came out last winter), and is sympathetic with how The Fugitive fanbase feels.

If they fail to take the time/money to rectify this issue with The Fugitive, I feel safe in suspecting that a possible season 2 release of My Three Sons will continue to see the same audio butchering that season 1 recieved, if it is released this winter..
Edited by LeoAmes - 9/15/09 at 11:34pm

I think a "leak" to tvshowsondvd.com on the music situation is something that should happen before the next set is released. CBS should at least throw those concerned a bone on what to expect. I agree that the situation with "The Fugitive" is different than the "Bonanza" situation because of the public domain copies. I could not imagine CBS coming out and boldly stating on the box art that Season Three returns to Season One standards because that would be an outright admission of how badly they screwed up Season Two.

But again, a "leak" -- whether in the form of a press release or comments from an anonymous source -- would at least let us know what to expect. I'd like to know whether CBS turned to the services of Mark Heyes again for Season Three. If the answer is yes, then I know to stay completely away from it. Heyes' computerized riffs don't belong anywhere near "The Fugitive." I still can't believe CBS went as far as to insert Heyes' name into the end credits.

If the answer is no, and the original music is all there -- or at least as much of the original music as there was in Season One --  then I'd be first in line to buy it. I think it would be a shame if we have to wait to hear reviews on S3V1 before buying it. I'd like to know what the situation is up front.

I just wanted to restate my point that if they did choose to take the avenue to place a notice on the DVD packaging, that they don't need to plaster the artwork with an admission of guilt stating that they fixed what went so horribly wrong with season 2.

All they need to do is make clear that the audio is intact. If it comes in the form of a notice on the DVD artwork, then the people that care about the issue that knew about it will have the answer they're seeking.
 
And those that were ignorant about it all along in regards to season 2 will still be ignorant about it and not pay it a second look. Even on the off chance they happen to notice it somewhere on the DVD packaging, as far as they're aware, these DVD releases always had the original audio. Why would they pay any attention to it when they never knew the issue existed anyways? You can't admit to guilt or apologize for something when the other party is completely unaware of the issue, so a mention on the packaging would only affect those that are aware of the problems and are witholding their dollars until word is released one way or another.

Doesn't even need to be on the front, stick a notice on the back where the details like aspect ratio usually are, where they usually place the warning that some audio may be changed for this home video release, and change it to state that the audio is intact and make sure any artwork release to sites like TVShowsonDVD includes the rear cover so those concerned about it can check for themselves.

They can accomplish it without a banner plastered across the front of the packaging stating they butchered season 2 and get it out to the fans that really care about the issue without hurting themselves or admitting to anything that could damage further sales of season 2 anymore than they've already been from things like miserable Amazon review scores.

That they haven't done anything of the sort speaks volumes in my opinion. It doesn't make good business sense to invest the time and capital in correcting a problem that caused anger among many of your potential customers, and then let those alienated consumers remain in the dark and witholding their cash because your corrected product continues to  suffer from the poor reputation of it's predacessor because you're not getting the word out at all that the problem has been corrected.
Edited by LeoAmes - 9/16/09 at 12:29am

That's fine, Leo, but what about the here and now? All we can see is the front cover of the box. How are we going to read what's on the back of the box in fine print without actually holding the product in our hands?

Anyway, I sent a little message to Gord Lacey at tvshowsondvd.com asking if he could get the lowdown on the music situation for Season Three.

You know, when I check IMDB for Mark Heyes, it doesn't even list the Fugitive among his credits. Hmmm...

Hoping, like the rest of you, that the season 3 DVDs keep the original music intact. Very much looking forward to completing the series.

Heard back from Gord Lacey, but he doesn't want to touch this one with a 10-foot pole. (Could you blame him?) Here is what he wrote:

Sorry Jim, I don't know. I could try asking, but to be honest if they
told me it was "good" and it ended up not being, then I'd have a
bunch of people pissed off at me.

Gord

With that said, it appears we'll have to wait.

A slight digression, but still 'Fugitive' related:

Did anybody see the obituary for George Eckstein?

http://www.latimes.com/news/obituaries/la-me-george-eckstein13-2009sep13,0,305987.story

Preview - The first sentence of the obituary begins as follows:  George Eckstein, a television writer and producer who co-wrote the historic final episode of "The Fugitive" TV series in the 1960's ...

I don't blame Gord for one second.  He tried to do the right thing with the S2, V1 replacement discs by having someone review them and report in and that didn't work out real well because we still got confusing information.  He's doing the right thing, IMHO, by letting this thing just play out on it's own.

On another note, I would have loved for Gord/Dave to try and find out why the MY THREE SONS S1 volumes got the same treatment with a replaced backscore.  To the best of my knowledge that one was never addressed anywhere, by anyone, at any time.

Gary "sigh... two of my favorite shows got bit by the substitution bug" O.

Yeah, Gary, the whole Season Two thing was an up/down, up/down scenario. First it was down when Volume One was released, then it was down again when Volume Two was announced but no information was made readily available on the music situation.

Then it was up with the announcement of the Volume One replacement set, but then a big down upon hearing early reviews of it. However, it was a big up to find out that a lot of the original music was, after all, restored in the replacement sets.

But it was back down big time when Volume Two hit the shelves. Out of curiosity, who plans on buying S3V1 if it turns out to be a lot like S2V2, i.e., heavy on Mark Heyes?

Happy FUGITIVE premiere day, everyone.  It was on this date that "Fear In A Desert City" first aired.

Harry
Edited by Harry-N - 9/17/09 at 9:45am

I am getting it even if the music ratio is the same as V2 because annoying as V2 was in its spots, the fact is the ratio still clocked in more above 70% orginal and the basic "sound" of a typical "Fugitive" episode was always there for me (speaking admittedly as one who does not know these episodes inside out).     And as I've said before, I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't accept that standard for myself in light of what I said the day of the initial S2 V1 debacle/

I'll be passing if the dvds are not back to Season 1 standards.  There's just no excuse for CBS/Paramount to excise music from their own library!  It has too much of an impact on the episodes for me to have all those wonderful scores removed.

Gary "fortunately I do have alternate sets with all the original music so I'm not completely without my favorite show of all time" O.

Thanks, Harry.  I don't recall the original airdate premier but I remember watching that one on DVD for the 1st time.  Vera Miles playing "I'll Remember April" on the keys. 

does anybody know if they messed with the music for the 'Untouchables" releases, or are they all Nelson Riddle?

^ I never heard anything about the score on The Untouchables being altered. To the best of my knowledge, Paramount has only made sweeping changes to the scores of The Fugitive: Season Two and My Three Sons: Season One DVDs.

Welcome to the board!

Thanks, I appreciate the quick response.

I too am a big fan of "the Fugitive. I remember it from when I was in high school. the thing that makes the music for me is the Rugolo "mood" cues at the beginning and end of the 3 chapters and the epilog. I too was upset with S2V1 and I am glad that CBS/Paramount got the hint and issued the replacement discs.Thankfully they re-instated the Rugolo mood cues and some more of the original music.Not All, but some. I really don't think it's going to get better than that. I will continue to purchase seasons 3 & 4 if i only get the same sort of sets as S2V2. What choice do I have? The full seasons that are out there of recorded channel airings are garbage. I ordered a set and maybe 50% are of good quality, the other 50% is mostly unwatchable.No thanks. I think paramount is going to do what they want and hopefully do something about retaining more of Rugolo's music.All I can do is hope.I wish that we could talk to the person or persons in charge of putting these shows out at CBS/Paramount and get some kind of a conversation going but i don't think they read this website.

If anything, this whole situation with "The Fugitive" dvds has imprinted on me the importance of the music scores (speaking as someone who's always loved old shows, but not necessarily been a soundtrack buff, per se).  I found the s2/p1 replacement set to be pretty agreeable, but had been warily holding off my viewing of s2/p2 until just recently, fearing the worst.  Although much of the old music remained, the sudden intrusion of the new Heyes scores during key sequences were quite jarring and distracting to me.  I was watching several episodes I'd never seen before, and I found the new music somehow undermined both the atmospherics and the suspense.  It just threw things totally off-kilter for me.  Thus, ultimately, I just didn't get that familiar, satisfying thrill from the show that I'm accustomed to. 

Anyway, like many of you, I'm going to wait for a few reviews before I take a chance on s3/p1 and so on.    

That's pretty much my view too. I'm certainly not as knowledgable about the show as some here but there was probably only a handful of times that I noticed (what I assume is) the new cues on the S2V1 set. Then with the S2V2 set, I noticed the new cues multiple times on nearly every episode. I guess it sticks out to me because I can hear that the new cues were created on a synthesizer (like most modern TV show scores) rather than with an orchestra like the original music.

There are certainly legitimate reviewers over on Amazon who continually give five star reviews to the "The Fugitive" on DVD because they could care less about the altered musical soundtrack. However, there are some reviewers over there who are anomalies. Some of them are first-time posters, and the things they write seem to come right off a press release. These posters made their first appearances when Season Two, Volume One was released. It begs the question: Are some of the posters on Amazon actually CBS plants? Could they be Amazon employees? I think it's time to do a little research to find out the answer.