The Fugitive: Season 3 Volume 1

I've said before that this set is the acid test to see if CBS/Paramount has the music issue straightened out in full.   S2 V2 I think they were rushed a bit and that it was likely they restored that before they did V1, which seemed to have fewer cases of Heyes left in than V2.

Any word on more releases of My Three Sons (With hopefully intact music) and season 3 of Petticoat Junction for the fall season (Just finished the recently released season 2 set)?

Since they are transferring MY THREE SONS Season 2 to HD, we can be pretty sure that will be released sometime in the near future (maybe early next year, just as an example).  There's nothing on the CBS Syndication Bible website about Petticoat Junction Season 3 being transferred to HD, but I'm still very, very confident we will see the continued release of that show.  Take that for what it's worth. 

Gary "I think you might have to wait for early 2010 for both shows to get their next releases, but I think both are coming" O.

Glad to hear this is coming and that Paramount is continuing the series. My guess is that we'll see the show completed now that this is on the schedule. Of course, I am keeping my fingers crossed that the music remains intact this go-round.

I'm hoping for the best regarding the music, but happy that the series is continuing.

I also like this particular set's cover art.

Harry

It's better aesthetically than the last volume, I agree.  However, the position of the railroad crossing light looks a tad odd to me.  And just what is Kimble leaning on that is placed directly in the path of the tracks?  When you photoshop various elements (and just about all TV-DVD sets are), inevitably logic takes a backseat. 

But hey, I'll take a shot of Kimble suspended from a aerialist's trapeze if it means 95%+ soundtrack integrity.

I realize there are two distinctly different FUGITIVE camps when it comes to the replacement discs and the music issue.  I freely admit to being in the group that thinks the CBS Library music is just as essential as the Rugolo theme music when it comes to these releases.  The other camp thinks only the Rugolo is truly important and we can get along ok with the rest of the backscore being excised.  That simply is not a viable option as far as I’m concerned.

 

Having said all that, I promise not to write letters to CBS/P if and when the Season 3 set comes out and we have not returned to a first season template as far as the background music goes (95+% original – no Heyes filler).  I will not rain on the other camp’s parade and trumpet my disappointment in some futile attempt to get CBS to realize how utterly stupid their decisions have been on this issue.  But I can’t promise I won’t continue to be very, very disappointed and disgusted with the entire situation, nor with the people who seem to be ok with this so-called “compromise”.  I’ll be well within my rights to privately consider that too big a price to pay.  And others will be within their rights to think I’m being overly zealous about the issue.  Such is life.

 

My biggest beef continues to be that none of this is necessary.  It’s been thoroughly documented that the substitutions are unnecessary in most cases.  Only the Capitol Music cues are in question, and they generally don’t take up more than a few seconds in each episode.  This is all that needs to be replaced, and there are plenty of people out in LA that know the music in question well enough to separate the CBS cues from the Capitol cues.  So there’s just no good excuse for CBS/Paramount to have taken this course.

 

Last night my family began watching the new LUCY SHOW dvd and we viewed the little opening snippet called “A Message from CBS”.  In it the company once again asserted it’s self-proclaimed title as the studio that puts TV on a pedestal.  Well, this upcoming FUGITIVE release will lay that to rest once and for all.  If they return to the 1^st Season template then I’ll happily agree with them.  If not, they are full of hot air.  I’ll have to wait for someone who knows what they are talking about (unlike the fiasco we had here with the early reviews on the replacement discs) to review this upcoming set to see if the vast majority of the backscore has truly been restored before I’ll buy it.  Hopefully some reviewer will do a good, honest job this time around and we can get the real skinny on the situation.  I won’t buy until I know for sure.


Gary "the issues with this and the ROUTE 66 set have been huge nightmares for me" O.

 

Edited by Gary OS - 7/29/2009 at 09:00 pm GMT

Gary I don't think it's fair to say that those of us who are satisfied for the most part with the replacement discs think its okay if the Library music is excised.     This comes down to a question of whether or not hearing 70-80% intact music is reasonably enough for us, and generally it is, even though I too have expressed my annoyance with those moments when the Heyes chase music will blast your ears off in an episode.      If there was no Library music and just Rugolo that would not have been enough for me, but I have heard a very healthy share of TZ music in every episode.     And when I have to balance this kind of presentation compared to the outright butchery that CBS/Paramount did in "The Odd Couple" S4 and S5, "The Fugitive" replacement discs come out smelling like a rose all the more.

Well, when I say "ok with the music being excised" I don't mean anyone thinks its a great idea.  I realize that none of us, regardless of which camp we fall into, would rather have the Heyes than the original.  What I mean is that some think that's acceptable enough and better than nothing at all.  And again, it's a free country.  I just don't think it's acceptable - mostly because it's utterly unnecessary.  And it's for sure NOT putting TV on DVD on a pedestal when you do something like that unnecessarily.  It wasn't even about music royalty issues, which is what happened in some of those ODD COUPLE releases.  At least I can understand that.  But this stuff with the FUGITIVE...  It's indefensible in my book.

I'm not trying to offend anyone, friend.  I'm just expressing my frustration with the entire situation. 

Gary "take care" O.

True, it isn't necessary, Gary, but neither for that matter were many of the edits done on "Odd Couple" and in the case of that show what happened was the integrity of the comedy of the episodes being tampered and irrevocably lost (one whole episode "Strike Up The Band Or Else" is permanently ruined because "Cocktails For Two" was removed).     80% intact music ultimately I found didn't destroy the ambience of "The Fugitive" as I've come to know it, though I will concede I'm not speaking as someone who was overly familiar with every episode through multiple viewings over the years.      But bad as I found "The Odd Couple" butchery, I bought them anyway so I could watch the episodes that were done right in the best quality and I could make my own arrangements on getting correct versions of the episodes in that set I won't watch.      

I do understand the frustration that exists for those who know the show more intimately than I do, but I do think that in light of the other injustices on DVD that will never get rectified because there isn't enough of a groundswell of outrage, "Fugitive" fans have a lot more going for them ultimately.

Just a couple of thoughts.  First, as to you being able to secure correct versions of the few ODD COUPLE episodes that were butchered - the point is that it will only take you getting a few.  Correct?  With the FUGITIVE, many of the episodes have music changes so it's a different animal than what you have to deal with on THE ODD COUPLE.  At least it seems that way to me.  But I admit I don't know the ODD COUPLE nearly as well as you do.  Still, does what I'm saying make sense?

Second, there are guys like Jeff Willis who had never seen the show before the DVD releases and even he was staggered by the replacement music because he heard authentic stuff with Season 1.  So I'm not sure it's even 100% about being familiar with the show.

Again, no hard feelings.  Like I said initially, to each his own.  

Gary "I kinda think if they had gone back to a S1 template we might have gotten some early word - so I'm a bit doubtful at this point" O.


Edited by Gary OS - 7/29/2009 at 09:07 pm GMT

In the spirit of friendship, I did reword a portion of my first post in the thread.  I'm not looking to alienate any fans of the show.  I'm just severely disappointed with both the original S2 discs and the replacements.

Gary "no hard feelings, folks" O.

Actually, in the case of "Odd Couple" for S4 and S5 it was more than a few episodes affected.   It was ultimately in excess of a dozen episodes with critical edits, sometimes just a line or two of Felix or Oscar singing one line of a song but in *every* instance comedy was being ruined.     I can go back and get some correct ones, but then at the same time I'm limited as well because cut syndicated episodes usually don't feature scenes that had the music edit parts.      So even then, it's not going to be perfect for me just as perhaps "Fugitive" won't be for you, but comparatively speaking it's still world's apart from my standpoint because no episode content from a "Fugitive" episode is edited.    Only in "Odd Couple" could you have the entire punchline tag of an episode ended just because it involves the singing of "Cocktails For Two."

No hard feelings either, Gary.

Did I hear my name mentioned?   Gary, you beat me to the post again.  Jack, I respect your view on the Fugitive music issue but Gary makes a point that I have made in past posts regarding the music subs angle.  It's true that I'm a first-time viewer of this show on DVD.  Mom and I are watching this show together for the first time.  It's interesting that neither one of us had seen these episodes prior to the DVD releases and Mom has the same view on the music issue as myself.  Mom's a retired music teacher with a degree from a NY music school and we both agreed to stop viewing the CBS/P sets and switched to my alt set.

After "Man on a String", we made the switch.  Interestingly, Mom wanted to stay with the CBS/P set at first due to the excellent video Q, but after a few episodes, she said "switch".  "Moonchild" was another episode that, imo, was really impacted by the Heyes subs.

Although I am a first-time viewer of the show, there's somewhat of an "asterik" here since I was raised on late 50's-60's TV and was already familiar with the CBS cue/library music of the era.  I can understand where someone is watching the CBS/P Fugitive DVD's and may not have been around when they aired and the Heyes edits aren't a problem for them.

As Gary as pointed out, what bothers some of us about what CBS/P did, was that there were viable alternatives to hiring a conductor like Heyes and making siginficant changes to the original score of the show.  It's just imo, but it may have had more to do with a large-sized Co like CBS/P not wanting to research the issue or not being willing to reach out to an outside party for assistance in identifying the Cap cues.

The other point that was discussed at length in the other Fuge threads was, imo, what upset the fan base more than anything else was that CBS/P did not announce the music changes except for the blanket small-print music disclaimer on the DVD covers.  I just think that they were not expecting the fans to recognize the music changes and underestimated the fan reaction of same.

Didn't realize there were that many edits to ODD COUPLE, Jack.  Sorry to hear about that.  I guess it's apples and oranges though and we have to pick our poison.  What you are talking about is missing scenes because music is not cleared or subbed out.  Yet the majority of the episode, including the thematic backscore, remains untouched.  What I'm talking about admittedly leaves every visual scene intact, but it guts portions of the backscore in most every episode at one point or another.  So it really is two different issues.  Neither is desirable and both stink, IMHO.

Well said on all counts, Jeff.  We think alike (and that probably scares you to death - LOL).

Gary "glad there's no hard feelings" O.

That's it imo.  What happened with the Fugitive S2V1 release was, correct me if I'm mistaken, the first time that this had happened with a vintage (50's-60's) TV/DVD release in that the backscore was altered, not just where there may have been a Frank Sinatra recording dubbed into the backscore for a restaurant or cafe scene, but the main backscore changed.  Then it happend again with the "My 3 Sons" release.  This is another reason why some of the fanbase were concerned, the "setting a precedent" angle.  We are concerned that CBS/P may be taking the approach that "This is ok...fans won't know the difference", etc.

This is just imo, but I consider edits, be it missing footage or backscores changed, a "no-no" with these TV/DVD sets. 

I will say that I respected CBS/P's effort in re-issuing the mostly-restored S2V1 version after listening to the fanbase feedback.  I would have given them an A+ if they had restored it to the S1 vol releases, but that didn't happen.


Sure does   In fact, you and I know that's not always the case but I'd bet there are some here that think it's true     FKB isn't one of my Holy Grails as Combat! isn't yours.  Now, that would be scary if it were true   I don't even have the Andy Griffith sets!

I suppose it's apples and oranges Gary just from the standpoint of what kind of cut is made, and I guess that also accounts for why we have different reactions.   For me, those dozen plus episodes of "Odd Couple" are ruined beyond measure since it leads to a number of awkward edits that don't fool anyone who knows these episodes.     "The Fugitive" situation was only comparable to that when the music was 100% Heyes, but once I heard familiar cues in the replacement discs, the basic sound of the episode and the proper ambience of what the show represents was restored for me.     And yes, some episodes like "Moon Child" have much too much replacement music still in there, and I'm not about to defend CBS/Paramount for not putting it all back in, to me it's just again a case where the half-glass is seen by me as half-full rather than half-empty, which is how I view "Odd Couple" S4 and S5.    In the end, it's not perfect but it doesn't remotely come close to my standard of what would constitute an unacceptable for purchase set (that is a category I have so far reserved for "Rhoda" with its 2/3rds syndicated episodes, and also because of my making a personal protest against Shout! for abandoning other titles while committing to others in a slipshod fashion).

Forgive me if my memory is off, but I seem to recall that what led CBS down the road to the large number of music edits in season 2 was the lack of the music scripts (not the right term but I've forgotten what they were actually called) that lists what music shows up where and what it was.  As a result, instead of doing the necessary leg work to re-create it they just removed anything and everything that could remotely cause licensing problems.

This was not an issue with season 1 and I thought someone chimed in that this was only an issue with season 2 and not the later seasons. If that is the case, you would think things would go back to how season 1 was produced where primarily all is there but a few known licensing problems. At least I hope this is and accurate assumption.

Does anyone else recall this? Or did I just make this all up out of desperation.

Brad, you're correct, that was the thing that caused the whole mess in the first place, because they lost the cue sheets and were too scared/lazy to do the research on what they owned free and clear and what they didn't.    If they have the cue sheets for S3 all should be well again.

Brad, you didn't make it up in your mind.  Like Jack said, you are basically correct about the problem.  The only thing is it's not that CBS didn't have the cue sheets.  It's that the way the show created the cue sheets was unorthodox.  By that I mean that they didn't list all the specifics so that it would be easy for Paramount to distinguish the CBS cues from those pesky Capitol ones that are in question, ownership-wise.  What I'm not sure of is the second part of Brad's comment: that things return to normal for S3.  I don't remember that being discussed by any of the legit articles addressing the subject.  So I guess we will have to wait and see on that one.  I'm also not at all sure that the Season 1 cue sheets were any different than Season 2.  In fact, if you read the one guy who has the definitive take and all the facts on the issue, Jon Burlingame, he seems to indicate that all the cue sheets, from all the seasons, are the same. 

If that's true then you are asking why Season 1 got through unscathed and the edits didn't start till Season 2, right?  The working theory is that more than likely some suits [i.e. corporate lawyers] at CBS/Paramount probably didn't recognize the issue until after Season 1 was released.  They got cold feet and instead of continuing with the Season 1 template, they took the extreme measure of gutting most everything in Season 2.  Then of course, they came back with the replacement discs.  But those still had much more Heyes than was necessary, so they still didn't really solve the problem.


Gary "I'm pretty sure the cue sheets are the same from all 4 seasons - at least that's the way I'm reading Burlingame's article from FMS" O.

Edited by Gary OS - 7/30/2009 at 01:17 am GMT

Oh boy. Here we go again. Will CBS drop the ball big time again? Or, will CBS finally, FINALLY do the right thing? I'm with Gary OS on this one. The music changes in the Season Two volumes were unnecessary.

Although I bought S2V1 after the replacement program was announced, S2V2 was unacceptable in my eyes (and ears) so I did not buy it. Instead, I borrowed my brother's copy and got to hate it without having to spend a dime. If CBS brings us back to Season One standards with the next release, I'll certainly buy it.

After all the slobbering praise they got from the people here for their replacement program why would anyone think they are now going to do it right, they think they did do it right.  

I miss the 'Ignore' feature.

I do agree that V1 was better than V2, but I have long believed that V2 was "corrected" first, as it were and thus if that represents their first attempt at restoration, and V1 represented their second effort, then that means things can only get better from my standpoint.

And it is not "slobbering praise" to acknowledge what was done right by them, even if imperfectly.    From my standpoint "slobbering praise" is what I've seen given to Shout! amidst all their screwups and deceptions.

Might not be a popular opinion and I'm taking a risk being so new to this community, but I'd have to agree with him. I don't think we'll see them improving their efforts.

LOL, so do I.  In fact I started a thread about that very topic shortly after the new boards went live.  Although we all might have different posters we'd use it with.

For the record, I do have to agree with Leo's sentiments.  And that's all I'll say about it.

Gary "the ignore function would help keep my blood pressure down - that's for sure" O.

I get that Roy.  The Rugolo is essential to the show.  No doubt about it.  It is the heart and soul of the series.  I just think the CBS Library cues were also key.  For myself it's not an either/or.  It's both.

Gary "don't want to beat a dead horse, so I'll hold off discussing this issue any more until we get word one way or the other about Season 3 and the music situation" O.

P.S.  Once more, no hard feelings toward anyone.  We all have our opinions on this issue, and that's fine and as it should be.  I think we can agree to disagree and leave it at that while still being courteous and friendly.  At least that's the way I plan to approach the situation.  Take care, everyone.