Smileboxed THE WONDERFUL WORLD OF THE BROTHERS GRIMM -- Will it ever make it to Bluray?

 Where on Earth did you read that the original three-camera material doesn't exist?  As far as I know, they've never attempted to use it for any transfer - they used the 35mm composite for the laserdisc.  I'm sure a beautiful Smilebox transfer could be made off the original elements, just as How The West Was Done was done.

Pacific Theatres owns the Cinerama process, the name, and the original Cinerama Films, but Warner's owns the movie and all release rights through their pre 86 MGM library as they do with HTWWW.  I have heard that for TWWOBG to be released on DVD (SD or Blu-ray) that the elements would need a lot of work. 

I have heard two different stories about the seven films released from Cinerama.(This Is Cinerama, etc.) in that Pacific has worked on them and gotten them into good shape and that they have been left to decay.  I have no idea which is correct.

I recall the guy behind Cinerama Adventure stating that some reels of the neg had been badly waterdamaged while being stored at the Forum Theater where all the Cinerama negs and prints were(are?) held. As a result no chance of TWWOTBG making it to HD.I would love to be wrong!!

I don't know the source of the information, but Wikipedia says:

The New York Post confirms the water damage story.

It sure sounds like composite prints are the only usable elements.  At least the current composite appears to have all of the picture information from all three panels.  Maybe they can apply the Smilebox process to that in order to compensate for the "fisheye" appearance?

 I did some research and have found out that it is not the entire thing that's water damaged - it's one panel (not sure if it's the center panel or one of the two side panels).  I wonder if with all of today's technology it could somehow be fixed - but the cost vs. sales would probably prohibit it.  

At one of the chats, Warners admitted they weren't even considering it at the time of the chat. At this point, I'd be reasonably happy with an anamorphic DVD of the widescreen version they play on television just so I could retire the laserdisc. A Blu-ray would be beyond my wildest dreams.

If you notice there is a reel change indicator at one point in this on the right hand upper corner of the screen... and it is eliptically shaped indicating this was taken from a 35mm anamorphic print, not a three strip element.  I suspect this is the video version we have seen on TCM for years with some of the smilebox processing applied.  The sound is actually pretty good and very directional as it would have been in its Cinerama version.   I doubt given the lack of commercial interest that we will see this restored on blu ray anytime soon.  The other thing is.... it isn't a particularly good movie.  Of course I would like to see all the Cinerama features restored with the smilebox processing on blu ray. 

I've learned that since Pacific doesn't own more than a percentage of West and Grimm they don't hold the elements. Warner does. I believe only the Cinerama travel movies were being stored in the basement of the Forum theatre as stated earlier. I don't think they're there now as I thought I heard they finally sold the Forum. Maybe they're under the Pacific now. Not sure about that.

It's been stated by the guy who is working on Cinerama stuff (and I now see he was quoted earlier in this thread) that the Grimm neg is not anywhere near as damaged as the rumors have claimed, that it's just the very edge of one of the panels, (probably B - the center) and he only said "some" damage, meaning it's not the whole length of the movie.

George Feltenstein from WB said in an online interview that the water damage occurred in MGM's vault, (so it was damaged not at Pacific OR Warners)

(I see it was also mentioned above that) both sources said WB still have the Technicolor seps that can be used to replaced any damaged neg section if necessary. The only real factor seems to be cost.

Since that was posted, (couple years ago when the West redux came out) it's been announced that an original IB Tech "archival" 3 strip Cinerama print has been located which is to be shown at a festival this year. I've also noticed that someone online with some experience recently said newer technology for transfers to video could get a good, if not ideal, picture from that print.

Meanwhile the company now working on scanning other old 3 strip Cinerama movies for video say their own new process can somehow digitally correct for age, color, damage, etc (the kind of stuff often referred to as "restoring") so I'd bet they would say they can do a great job with this archival print - again, if someone pays for it.

I think it all boils down to money. If Warners really wanted to, they could use the Technicolor seps and do their proprietary "UltraResolution" scanning and realigning process on both Grimm and West (which could look as stunning as Singin in the Rain or Gone With The Wind) then apply the line blending and linear rectification programs on top of that and (since they did NOT do an Ultra res on WEST) the result would be even better than West looks now. It would also (as stated before) cost a fortune, but maybe by the time Homevid goes Even Higher def and they need more resolution to sell those titles again, that technology might have gotten cheaper. That part about cost going down eventually was even alluded to by Mr. Feltenstein a couple years ago. But again that was before the new technology being used on the travel movies was announced. So at least they haven't closed the door on the subject.

Latest info on this title is Newly Posted British Pathe News Premiere footage showing lost Denver Cooper Cinerama and notable arrivals: http://www.britishpathe.com/video/the-wonderful-world-of-the-brothers-grimm-preview


Edited by NY2LA - 1/30/12 at 4:35pm

 

Warner's has said several times on the WAC Facebook page that it all boiled down to money and the cost that would be involved.  They said the interest in Grimm is not as large as it is and was for HTWWW and they of course needed to make sure it paid for the work that needed to be done.  They also said that the damage is repairable and again spending the money would yield a good transfer.  They went on to say that the Archives would not be a place for the film, again due to the amount of money they would have to throw at it, it needed a mass market release. 

 

This was also the same for RAINTREE COUNTY.  It needs a lot of work and to make it viable it would have to be a mass market release.

 

I have looked on 70mm.com at some of the restoration shots on a couple of the Cinerama films, and while it is a marked improvement to what it was, I don't think that Warner would deem it acceptable.  After all they set the standard with HTWWW and Ben-Hur.  Don't get me wrong, I will be all over the Cinerama films when they are released in Blu-ray.

I wouldn't hold your breath on this one. It would be a big chunk of Warner's restoration budget for a largely forgotten film that not that many people want to see.

The same could be said for any number of films that inexplicably find their way to disc every year. Where did you get the impression anyone was holding their breath? Have you actual figures on how many people want to see it? Obviously some people are interested enough to keep talking about it, and there is nothing wrong with that, is there?

If we all gave up and forgot about titles we want that are not thought to be obvious best sellers, can you imagine how much smaller this site would be?

Yeah, what wasn't in the laserdisc version that is there in what TCM shows now didn't just appear out of thin air... and no one has ever said that the elements used for the current TCM airings aren't viable for at least a decent MOD DVD. I met Feltenstein a few years ago, asked about Grimm, The Boy Friend and Mame. He hadn't been planning any of them and was not encouraging about the prospects. I believe he said he couldn't locate stereo tracks for Mame and didn't want to release it without them. Mame and Boy Friend are both out now via MOD. Mame was released flat mono and Boy Friend isn't perfect either. So there is a precedent for Warners releasing something in a lesser form than they'd stated they'd like to.

I recall another old movie that was not a hit in the first place, and the studio said cost was prohibitive to release on video. Enough people made enough noise aimed at enough of the right ears, that not only was it released, it was mastered from much better than standard elements. It's very likely some classic "studio accounting" was used to bury the cost into a more successful related title, but it got done and released within 2-3 years of the noise beginning. Sony just shocked a bunch of us by releasing the fun but notorious 73 Lost Horizon on MOD, with the cut stuff put back, and supplements, too - so you can't say it's all that unlikely for a studio to put out something that has "limited appeal."

I suggest if you really want something released, ignore the naysayers and make some noise. Worse that could happen is some wet blanket telling you to forget about it. But you can always follow Cee Lo Green and say "forget" them! ; )

Edited by NY2LA - 1/30/12 at 4:50pm

Easy there big fella, don't shoot the messenger! And where did I say you can't talk about it? Best to direct your anger at Warner, as its release or non-release has nothing to do with me.

What I was addressing to you is not anything to do with Warner, just your using your opinion about the movie as a reason we shouldn't hope for anything.

Oh for crying out loud, what's the matter with you! I thought this forum was all about opinions. It's my opinion that a Brothers Grimm Blu-ray release won't happen. You don't like that, fine, but I'm still entitled to state it. And...I didn't even give an opinion of the movie, I'd buy a Smilebox version, but a very expensive restoration of a film of limited appeal (that's right, LIMITED APPEAL) = don't hold your breath. I wonder what Robert Harris thinks of the chances of it happening? You can have a go at him then. I'd love a full restoration of The Alamo, but if some posts that it's not going to happen, I'm not going to blow a gasket. The End.

From what I can see it has been at least two years or more since Warners has said anything on the subject of Grimm, and a lot has happened since then. The technology now being used on the older Cinerama films was apparently not known of then, nor was the existence of an archival print, etc. And they never really mentioned what kind of 35mm composite element was used for the laser and current TCM showings and if that could be fixed up enough for MOD, did they? (Idunno 'cause I don't do facebook, but I bet not)

As for what's being done with the old travel titles, who knows what their shape is compared to the Grimm elements? There seems to be several different ways (with variable costs) in which Grimm could make it onto some form of DVD MOD (if using the 35mm composite shown on TCM) or BRD.

Within a year the first and last Cinerama titles have 50th and 60th anniversaries, and as a result they are all being given a lot more attention than they normally would. So it seems a good time to revive the discussion.

Yeah you did. "a largely forgotten film that not that many people want to see." Sounds like an opinion to me.

An expensive restoration (we'll sidestep the fact that like HTWWW, it wouldn't likely actually BE Mr. Harris' definition of a restoration) isn't necessarily the only option.

And I am entitled to disagree with you, especially when your first post here today really added nothing new or constructive to the discussion, just an attempt to dump on it.

I disagreed, as there is some new development since the last time the topic was discussed, and I have some experience that keeping a dialogue open can change a situation from being told nothing was possible to having it all done in the best available means.

But I did not choose condescending words like "Easy there big fella" and a huffy tone, or resort to personal attacks as you did. I did not ask "what's the matter with you" or characterize your words as anger, even though there is more evidence of anger "for crying out loud" in your words than mine. I did not "blow a gasket" though it sure seems like you did.


Back to topic: has anyone looked at that premiere footage yet and does anyone remember seeing this movie in ANY kind of theatre?


Edited by NY2LA - 1/30/12 at 4:12pm

 

 

 

They posted something about two months ago.  There is a lot of talk on their Facebook page about Grimm and Raintree.  Both films that they said needed major dollars and work and they know the interest in the films.  They did say they would not use the 35mm elements for it is not the complete film as was seen in the Roadshow and if and when they do decide to go forward they want to do it right and give us the complete film, including Overture, Prologue, Intermission and the rest of the complete experience.  

 

All I am doing is repeating what they said, so please don't shoot the messenger. 

 

The Cinerama Travelogues are in pretty poor shape, but hat's off to Pacific Theatres and John Sittig, who is a fine gentleman and great advocate for Cinerama, for going forward with the project to get the films out in the best shape possible and I understand they have even expanded the project to now include all the original films.  I will be one of the first to order each Blu-ray that is released.  But Warners is not going to put Grimm out less than outstanding and that is from their mouth,

 

Discussion is always good.  It gets people talking and Warner does read this forum and listen to what we have to say.  Who knows, these conversations could be the ones that get them to act.  I do have the laserdisc and will not part with it until there is a Blu-ray. 

 

Edited by ahollis - 1/30/12 at 7:02pm

I saw Grimm in Cinermara at the Carolina Theater in Charlotte during its initial release. I was a preteen, but I saw and loved it. I knew it wasn't a great film, but it was wonderfully entertaining with its different fairy tales and the sometimes darkly creepy tone it had (Martita Hunt was shuddery to me, and I hadn't seen Great Expectations yet). FOund the music and songs lots of fun, too, so I was very disappointed when I bought that "soundtrack" LP set only to find it had a storybook motif rather than the music and songs only. I was completely delighted some years ago when a REAL soundtrack CD was released.

I saw a segment in 3 panel Technicolor Cinerama at the Bradford Widescreen Museum about 7 years ago. It looked spectacular on the big screen!

Here's some info on the travelogue restorations. http://www.in70mm.com/news/2011/cinerama/index.htm

I got that same CD a couple of years ago.  Some day's I can't get the elf song out of my mind. 
 

 

I saw that as well - but I think the audience on that occasion was told that Grimm was a lost cause and had been virtually destroyed in a flood. By the way, this year's Widescreen Festival at Bradford, commemorating the 60th anniversary of Cinerama, has announced a screening of South Seas Adventure and other TBA treats.

Well, we already know that the Overture, Prologue, Intermission, etc, DO in fact exist, as they have been broadcasting them for a couple years, now. So they DO have that stuff, even the music tracks of those bits were released on CD. Some have even said that they saw the full 3 panels now where the Laser cht off some at the ends. (I am not sure about that but others have the means and inclination to do a frame to frame comparison between the LD and current Broadcast transfer and post it if they want.) But there is definite proof that the prologue, overture, etc exist in more than one form, therefore there we can easily and rationally reject what the "Messenger" brings, and not accept that claim as an excuse for not using releasing the 35mm composite. And again, they didn't exactly do Mame and Boy Friend "right" or in their best form on the current MOD DVD.

Agree that Sittig is a nice guy who wants the best, but the fact is he hasn't been granted the full power to implement things as we, (including he) would really deem the best. Still its better than not having him around to advocate at all. So my Cinerama hat is off to him... or it would be if I could buy one, but I can't because Pacific doesn't really believe in Cinerama enough to keep such merchandise in their store, most likely since people want Cinerama merchandise a million to one over ArcLight merch.

As for Warners (the Horse's Mouth, or whatever orifice it actually came from ; ) stating they won't put out Grimm at less than its best, again there is evidence to the contrary, that they HAVE those bits ("the complete film, including Overture, Prologue, Intermission and the rest of the complete experience.") and HAVE released less than ideal transfers (Boy Friend, Mame) so rejecting that...

Now, THAT, Mr. Hollis is something I emphatically, TOTALLY and absolutely AGREE with! Nothing wrong with being a squeaky wheel, and no reason we alway shave to accept what studio spokespeople say, as they are more than occasionally not quite right.

Mr. Feltenstein himself repeated the very exaggerated "water damage" claim - which Strohmaier has since reported not to be the case. Not faulting Feltenstein, as he hasn't had the consistent close proximity to the actual material as the other guy. And perhaps Feltenstein's position is similar to Sittig's in that he may have the best intentions but not the absolute authority or degree of involvement. I asked GF about some less than ideal authoring and presentation decisions of some extras on the otherwise stellar My Fair Lady and Zhivago SE DVD sets a few years ago. His answer: he had nothing to do with all that. He wasn't involved. Surprising, no? Now didn't you think that George was the Ultimate Authority on Warner's catalog? Maybe he is more like a WB "Ultimate Collectors Edition" which is apparently compiled by committee, and often missing expected QA, details, and material... ; )

Now Mr, Hollis, do you have the ability to capture and post frame comparisons from the Grimm Laserdisc and TCM broadcast? I'd say we could lay out pretty clearly something that could illustrate what exists vs what has been claimed.


Edited by NY2LA - 2/3/12 at 1:59am

Cool - can you recall any more details on going to see it? I got the Boxed album as a kid, (from a cut-rate bargain table, marked down so much my mother didn't hesitate an instant. I was suprised to hear Charlie Ruggles narrate the whole thing, but I loved the book, which is where I think I first learned about Cinerama. As for the REAL soundtrack CD, do you mean the limited edition that came out doubled with music from another movie? Last time I saw a soundtrack of this widely marketed was a cassette reissue of the storybook album. But I haven't been on top of all the soundtrack CD releases in the past decade. I did buy the limited edition CD set. I already know the elf song and much of their dialogue verbatim.

Oh and my own memory of seeing the movie is very very brief... I just vaguely recall watching the dragon scene at our local theatre, which most certainly did not have Cinerama. Let's say I was under ten years old when it would have finally come around to "a theatre near you."

I don't recall ever having heard that Grimm was any less well received West, so I doubt it was a total flop. Seems to me its appeal is maybe broader than West actually since not all kids would sit through long western. I have read that Grimm actually looks much better overall because there was no use of 70mm stock or stunt footage this time.


Orphan: "You do like us, don't you?" Cobbler: "Do Not." Orphan: "Do too!" Cobbler: "Do Not." Orphan: "You've got to, because nobody else does!"

Elves: "Why?" "Why what?" "Why am I up?" "...Because it's Christmas Eve! ... good luck is what we bring, because we're good luck elves!" "I'd rather be a bad luck elf." "Why?" "'Cause he gave me a crooked mouth, that's why!" "Don't you like your mouth?" "NO!" "Then KEEP it SHUT!"

- Totally from memory. Was I pretty close?

Edited by NY2LA - 1/30/12 at 11:28pm

Thanks for the report, Mr. Furmanek! Do you recall what section of the movie it was, and was anything said about it?

As I recall, it was a scene of the brothers writing in their library and there were also shots of the carriage in the forest. I'm sorry, but that's the best I can remember!

How did it come off to you, Mr. Turner? Nice looking? Entertaining at all? Isn't it interesting how far that damage rumor got so exaggerated and spread so far around - to being supposedly a "virtually destroyed lost cause"? Nice to know now that's not remotely the case. By the way, did you notice Bradford is also showing Grimm? Have they announced yet it's an IB tech Archival print, and that the other travelogues are likely to be from video? Even given the sources for the older stuff it would be interesting to look at those old Cinerama movies beyond what little we've seen (the first and the last) and see what all the excitement was about. Have you heard about the plans to show that stuff in LA this fall? I believe it's close to when the HTF meet is scheduled, maybe a week apart.