What has happened to people? - Page 2

Well, here you go!

While I don't totally disagree with the OP's message, I find the reverse--people NOT caring--to be even more disturbing than people spewing venom.  After all, we are on this forum, and others on the IMDB forums because we have opinions on movies and are trying to seek others' opinions.  We're trying to communicate our opinions and ideas using words on the web, with many people we don't know, it's natural sometimes we let hyperbole get the better of us. 

From what I have read of the past, the public discourse on movies seems to have dwindled.  Dialogue on what movies meant mattered.  The two highest profile critics in the past, Kael and Sarris, were as famous for their thoughts as their personalities.  But people say things like "people just want to be entertained" as if those are valid rebuttals to criticism.  Of course a big blockbuster such as Transformers 2 is meant for enterainment, but many of us believe it is a bad movie precisely because it failed to entertain.  If "it's just a movie" is no more of a thoughtful defense than "it sucks" is a probing critique, it also shows an additional belief that movies as a form is incapable of providing more than just the lowest of entertainments.  That worries me more than hatin' on bad movies. 

For several years, I reviewed movies for The 80s Movies Rewind. I was probably one of the youngest writers that site had, having typed up pages from the age of 19 to the age of 23. As such, looking back on some of my reviews, I feel they were poorly written. Age is a major factor when it comes to stuff like this. Something I've come to find beyond that, though, is that sometimes the posters on the IMDB will get so vicious that they'll wish death upon anybody they disagree with. Very nasty stuff. I'm just a viewer, not a poster...I wouldn't last one hour on those boards.

Sincerely,

John Kilduff...

I think this is a far better forum to discuss entertainment

Kirk Tsai says Transformers 2 "failed to entertain", the film must be entertaining on some level it's already grossed $672m in just 20 days and how many levels does a film like this have? I think people, of all ages, got what they expected from the film, and they've gone back to see it again and again, and if you expected something more, tough titty.

Looking at the Transformers 2 review thread and amongst the "shit" , "garbage" "stinker" and "bleh" there are some who look like they've actually been entertained by Transformers, gadzooks is that possible?

"Loved it! Popcorn action at it's best. Movies like this are about great special effects and lots of action and this film delivers."

"I enjoyed it for what it was."

"Transformers is a pure summer action movie. Can't complain as this is why these types of movies come out during the summer. They're not meant to be a social commentary. They're meant to entertain. Pure and simple. In other words, I loved it!!!!!! "

"Along with Star Trek one of the most entertaining films of the year."

That last one was mine, though I did enjoy Star Trek a whole lot more. My excuse for being entertained by a movie based on a toy or cartoon at my age (46) is that I love sci-fi, good bad ugly I can watch almost anything remotely science fictionish and get some enjoyment out of it, hell I even have a soft spot for [whispers] Battlefield Earth, and I'm looking forward to Roland Emmerich's next epic 2012. I'm sure the haters have already written their reviews for that one.

This one's easy (and what a great thread to be started by a veritable newbie to the forum!  ).

To summarize what others have already more eloquently pointed out:

1.)  This is the internet.  And we are discussing, in particular, behavior on discussion forums.  Human nature dictates that people are much more likely to opine on things they don't like--for it is those things which seem out-of-the-ordinary to them (making those situations "man bites dog" and worthy of talking about).

2.)  People don't seem to be able to express themselves as well as in the past.  And adding on the seemingly increased opportunities available on the internet, we see more and more people expressing themselves, but not necessarily well.  Add to that that some people think it improves their net worth to express critical (which, for many, means negative) opinions on things.  In other words, it makes them, for some reason, feel better about themselves. 

I think that's the crux of the sentiment expressed by the OP:  "when did it become so cool to hate everything?"  People like to kvetch and the internet provides a remarkable format for kvetching (anonymously, it one prefers).  And, as we have all experienced, some people are much more talented and entertaining at kvetching than others.  So it is in life. 

I spent some time debating whether or not I'd respond to this.  It is a bit of a loaded question, though unintentionally so.

I think this might be asking the right question in the wrong place.  I cannot speak to the message boards of imdb, or AICN, or Comingsoon, or Superheroeshype, or Transfans, or TheOneRing, or theforce.net, or so on and so forth.  Having been a member of HTF for about 8 years, and most specifically through the Movies (Theatrical) forum, I can speak to that.  I don't care about the rest of it.  I come here to talk movies.  Not just to praise, not just to defend, and not just to belittle.  But this forum is about [b]discussing[/b] movies.  We are going to disagree, and we are going to do so all of the time.  And that is what I want.  I learn very, very little from people I agree with.


This will always come down to a matter of liking it or not liking it, but the pourpose of discussion is often a bit deeper.  Why did "we" respond the way "we" did.  In doing that, we examine the film a bit more rigorously.  This can be a double-edged sword.  Maybe you see the flaws, but maybe (just maybe) you can see the genius.  I try and avoid name-calling.  I absolutely call my friends "gay" for their movie choices, but that is in person and meant in jest.  It has little to do with the film, and everything to do with our friendship.  On this board, most posters try to focus on the film, not the member.


Sure, but you loaded the deck, Steve.  That accounts for some of the negativity, but hardly all.  I legitimately detested Transformers 2, and listed many of the reasons why in my review.  I can assure you I have had a significant other (and even a child) for most of my time at HTF.  And with respect, I can absolutely find cases of you poo-pooing specific films yourself.  Even summer blockbusters.

As for the DVDs, I can only speak for myself.  Wolverine will probably never be seen again, and there is absolutely no chance I'll purchase TF2.  T4 is unlikely as well.  I never bought 3.  I used to buy most of the summer blockbusters, but that has changed.  I still buy the ones I enjoy, though.


And this was the focal point of my review for not only TF2, but also Wolverine and T4.  I am certainly not above throwing out a snarky comment about a lazy film, but I always try and illustrate why I found a film poor or mediocre (or good or great).  I think that applies to a majority of members here.  That is how you have a discussion.  And I readily admit some people don't want a discussion.  They want validation or confrontation.  But HTF tends to enable discussion.

Shad isn't being hateful.  He is being vociferous.  And even if he was "hateful", it is toward a product.  Transformers 2, just like The Dark Knight or Aliens, is NOT a person.  But here comes the twist.  Of course it is just a movie...but we are here because we love movies.  I love movies now more than I did when I was young, and even more than I did when I first joined.  You say "just a movie" to show perspective, and I agree.  But I love movies.  I love what movies can be.  I love Pitch Black and I love The Passion of Joan of Arc.  So, of course, we tend to be passionate.  I refuse to apologise for that.  If we weren't passionate, we wouldn't post.


We don't all have that criteria, Ed.  Over my moviewatching years, my criteria have changed.  There is a vast spectrum of movies, and no one can love them all.  We all have an aperture.  As I have opened my eyes to films that I would have previously found boring or pointless, it's made me less tolerant of noisy flash.  Especially when there are such good blockbusters out there.  And I don't regret that in the least.  If being able to better appreciate The Searchers means I don't enjoy GI Joe...then that is OK by me.


Thanks Kirk.  I am not so doom and gloom (because we, on the whole, on getting some great films - it has been a GREAT decade).  But I agree about the level of discourse.

My greatest enjoyment on HTF has come from defending a film I loved.  Not with insults or snarkiness.  With competent arguments based on the film itself, on why and how I responded to the film the way I did.  I love to defend a film.  I want films that are good enough to be defended.

I enjoy ripping a film I don't like a new one.  Unlike some members, I can still enjoy a competently worded diatribe :)  I recognize the cognitive dissonance, but I am more than willing to listen to reasons why people like it.  Unfortunately, this quickly boils into "what did you expect, Citizen Kane" or accusations of snobbery.  There are Oscar-bait dramas I hate just as much as some of the mindless blockbusters I hate.  It is not the genre, but the execution.

People should still be obliged to use manners with one another, especially over the internet.  And that goes both ways.

I paid my money before I walked into the theater. If movies had to "work off tips" -- say, X dollars go to the theater directly, and then some multiple to the studio based on satisfaction -- the numbers would look different.

The real effect will be seen in the inevitable Transformers 3. Will it drop off like for The Matrix or Pirates of the Caribbean?

Given that gap, it's hardly a ringing endorsement. If a film that is a whole lot less entertaining is still among the most entertaining, it's a pretty sad year for the movies -- and there I'd agree with you.

What makes me laugh is the excuses the haters come up with when a movie they don't like makes a killing at the box office, sometimes it's "yes alright it's made  nearly a billion at the box office but if you take this and this into account and that too, than the film really isn't successful at all is it?", or this "...okay it's made $700m in 3 weeks, so what, doesn't prove anyone actually liked it." and the old classic "yeah well Titanic has grossed twice as much as that, doesn't seem so impressive now does it?".

And than there's the sweaty panicky nailbiting hater with "a huge weekend but this shit is going to sink like a stone next weekend, I can tell, it has to drop, word of mouth will get out and kill it, I know it will, wait and see." I'm not making this up, people have been posting this sort of the thing on the forum for years now.

The issue with internet discourse is most succinctly explained by the guys over at Penny Arcade

www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/

We're all here to talk about movies. We're not going to like all of them. I think the issue for the OP may be that you're personally identifying with some films. So if someone says that Transformers 2 is a terrible, terrible, terrible, terrible movie, you feel that that person is attacking your taste, or is in some way slighting you or invalidating your viewpoint. They almost certainly are not, and you shouldn't feel slighted. Unless you're Michael Bay. Everyone has their own opinion, and none of them are wrong. Except for that one guy who keeps giving every Pixar film bad reviews.

OK, if someone says you're gay to like the original Superman, ok, yeah that's an example of a personal attack rather than an attack on the movie. I think that's the exception rather than the rule. At least on this forum.

Yes but that wasn't the point of my post, was it? I was referring to the excuses haters like you come up with when a film they don't like makes a ton of dosh at the box office. While I couldn't care less how much Paul Blart, which I haven't seen, made at the box office.

I think a lot has to do with your expectations before you see the movie. I haven't seen the new Transformers yet. I don't expect it to be a "good" movie. I expect it to have a plot geared toward a boy between 5 and 10 years old, or someone who grew up watching the series ad playing with the toys. I want to see the movie to see the special effects. I don't expect it to have any "real" storyline. If it has a lot of cool effects and action, I will think it is a good movie.

I don't know if  have ever really "hated" a movie. That is a very strong word. There are many movies I did not like, or thought were stupid, or did not watch the whole thing. I recently watched Mall Cop and Pink Panther. While they had their funny moments, overall I thought they were lacking. They used up their funniest jokes in the trailers and left nothing for the movie. I enjoyed them, but not nearly as much as I would have liked to. Definitely no hate going on.

Tonight we are going as a family to the midnight showing of Harry Potter. It means much to my daughter and wife, but I don't care for the series. They are well put together and I am sure I will enjoy it because it will meet my expectations.

"Haters like me"? Oh yes - I've hated some movies in my time, and I'm not afraid  to use that word, just as I am unafraid to go to the other extreme and say I've "loved" certain films.  But I kind of resent the generalization in the way you categorized me there ... and can you provide a specific example? Quite frankly, even though I know I've hated movies before, I'm actually having a hard time coming up with a single example (it's still early; maybe after I wake up a while).

But yes, I think my response did reflect the point of your post. If you're using the example that people tend to downplay the fact that a movie they don't like has made a ton of money at the box office, then the implication must be that it somehow means something quality-wise when a movie does well financially. 




 

I know it's this thread, it's got me seeing 'haters' everywhere. Anyone who doesn't agree with me is a hater, members I don't particularly like are now haters. Won't be long before I start accusing my workmates of being haters. My Sandra a hater? Hmmm she's dragged me to see so many dreadful horror movies the past few years and she wouldn't be caught dead watching giant robots fighting each other, or comic book heroes or even Star Trek, so when I see her tonight I'll have to point and yell "Hater!".

Edited by Steve Christou - 7/15/2009 at 12:32 pm GMT

Yea, I see going to imdb as a complete waste of time.


And yes everyone who doesnt agree with youre fanboy gushing opinion of something is a hater. ;)

[Points ominously at JonZ.] Hey the IMDB isn't just crass comments, I find it very useful when looking up character actors and other films they've appeared in. It has it's uses. I've stopped buying those hefty yearly film guides long ago thanks to sites like the IMDB and Wikipedia.

My problem isn't so much with people saying hateful things about movies they disliked (everyone's entitled to their opinions, right?) but rather with people taking on a snobbish attitude and saying things like "I'll never see that piece of crap because the director makes pieces of crap" even before the movie comes out! Case in point: Roland Emmerich's upcoming end of the world picture 2012. The trailer to this was amazing and it looks to be another "fun" disaster flick by a guy who knows how to make them. Yet, I've read such vile comments on some of these boards it never ceases to amaze me how snobby and close-minded people can really be. I go to the movies to be mindlessly entertained for two hours, nothing more. If I want to feed my soul with enlightening material or give my brain a workout I'll read a book.
Edited by Luisito34 - 7/17/2009 at 03:45 pm GMT

"Karlosi and Christou: At the Movies"

It has a nice ring to it. 

Steve, I agree about going there for movie info.

I was talking about the message boards being a waste of time.

Yep IMDB can be very useful Jon. I love the filmographies, but mistakes do creep in.

Mike, did you know the name Karlosi was a blending of the names Karloff and Lugosi? I didn't until someone mentioned it here, of course it might be his real name but the fact Joe's a huge horror fan too... well.

But movies don't have to be "mindless entertainment".  The old "I wasn't expecting Citizen Kane" claim assumes that movies can ONLY be High Art or "brainless escapism", which isn't true.  And since it isn't true, why aren't the desires of people who want/expect more than mindless movies as least as valid as yours?  I'm detecting something of your own brand of snobbery here.

Michael,

Well said. I can't watch a film of Hitchcock's or Truffaut's (as well as several other challenging directors) and not engage my brain to a very large extent. I probably don't go as far as Truffaut ("Is the cinema more important than life?"); however, I may come dangerously close to that on occasion as far as films and music are concerned.

"Are films more important than life?" asks Jean-Pierre Léaud in Day for Night (1973), Truffaut's loving tribute to film-making. For Truffaut the answer must be in the affirmative. "When actors sometimes go skiing on Sundays... I'm sick all day with worry," he explained in an interview. When asked if he fears for the actors or the film, he replies, without hesitation, "For the film."

http://www.fipresci.org/documents/archive/archive_2008/truffaut_rbergan.htm

Very well said. Couldn't agree with you more.

Quote:
Really?  Really?  This is exactly what I was trying to express worry in my earlier post.  I mean, this deserves the thread title, right? -- What has happened to people?  

You mean, what has happened to people that they have zero interest in movies that feed their souls or exercise their minds?  Good question.

Where's that belching smiley when you need it, or didn't we ever have one? Well that was my 'knee-jerk' reaction to bad penny RobertR's latest offering. There's nothing wrong with people enjoying films of every variety, whether mindless escapism or intellectually stimulating. I can't stand this attitude you people have, and not just in this thread.

If you didn't spend so much time belching maybe you'd see that the point is that it was clearly implied that movies can't be or shouldn't be anything more than mindless escapism, and that people who want them to be more are misguided or snobs of some kind.  It's unfortunate that you "can't stand" people who think otherwise.