New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Down-Firing versus Front -Firing Subwoofer

post #1 of 19
7/1/09 at 8:55pm
Thread Starter 
   I am in midst of quandary about which sub to choose. It will be located in corner of carpeted living room. You might say that this room is approximately 15 x 18 feet but it is actually half of larger area with the other half a dining area.  The living area is "boundried" by a couch.   
    I am currently considering either 12" or 15"; front or down firing and power in the 300 to 500 watt RMS range. It will be used with Onkyo HT-R560 7.1 system.  The sub I am now using is what originally came with Onkyo HT-S790 system and is advertised at 230 watts  It may be considered adequate by some people but, in my opinion, is woefully underpowered.
  
Reply
post #2 of 19
7/2/09 at 5:45am
Steve,

It makes little difference.  There's little advantage of one over the other.

When you get to this size subwoofer, it takes more watts to drive it. However, there are other "just as important" considerations and watts should not be the only "selling point". 

Unless you are building it yourself, it is best to go with a sub manufacturer such as SVS or HSU.  Even with these internet direct companies, expect to pay $900 or more for a good 12" sub.

Let us know what your budget is and we can make some suggestions...
Reply
post #3 of 19
7/2/09 at 7:30am
Thread Starter 
   Yes, Gene was helpful as well in previous thread mentioning the SVS & HSU subs. He also gave me links to The Nerds.net & Onecall.com which I am in process of checking out. My budget is sort of split at the moment between home theater project and upgrading my road bicycle. Ok, here goess maybe dumb question but, is it not possible to find a decent sub on Ebay for under $200?  Surely I would think that it would not take much to improve significantly on the one I have now. But, I'm well aware that I could be wrong. Just trying to explore all possible, practical options. 
 Thanks,
Steve
Reply
post #4 of 19
7/2/09 at 9:54am
Don't get too hung up on wattage.  The amount of power you need depends on the enclosure volume, driver efficiency, low frequency extension.  Google for "Hoffman's Iron Law".  My eD A2-300 is "only" 200w amp, but I'm sure it has much more output than your HTiB sub, since it's like double the size + 12" driver.

If looking under $200, maybe hunt for a BIC F12.  $300-500 SVS/Hsu/eD are the popular ones on internet forums.

In such a large room you'll have to experiment with placement, probably put it near the listening position.


Reply
post #5 of 19
7/2/09 at 12:23pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks, Stephen.  I will check out the BIC sub.  I did just get off phone with OneCall.com and will probably try for one of their Boston HPS 12HO subs while they are still on sale. Thank you, Gene! 
  I came very close to making what would most likely have been big mistake of buying one of those "bargain" subs on Ebay. It sure pays to do some research before hand instead of impulse buy.

Edited to say that another very strong contender is this one;
  H-100 Premier Acoustics PA-120
Edited by oedius - 7/2/2009 at 07:50 pm GMT
Reply
post #6 of 19
7/2/09 at 2:40pm
Yeah the PA-120 also has a good rep.  eBay has a wide variety of subs for sale, some are true bargains while others can be cheap junk.  You just have to search out this & other home theater oriented forums to figure out which are the ones where people actually have heard of the manufacturer & tried the product & liked it, vs. ones that are maybe "white-van scam" speakers of dubious quality.  Then just make sure wherever you buy from has a reasonable return policy in case you don't like it.
Reply
post #7 of 19
7/3/09 at 5:49am
Thread Starter 
  It's going to come right down to the wire on this.  Concerning the PA-120 and the Boston HPS 12HO, can anyone tell me if either of these two subs hit significantly harder than the other?  Or, are they so close in performance that it really doesn't matter which?  I am leaning toward the Boston even though only the white ones are in stock.  
Reply
post #8 of 19
7/3/09 at 6:55am
I haven't heard either one so I can't say if one is better than the other. The PA weights 15 lbs more but the Boston's amp is rated 300 watts rms and the PA 200 (but 650 peak). But I bet either one would be night and day over the Onkyo.

I'd also check with Premier Acoustics to make sure they will honor their warranty if bought on eBay. Sound Distributors Inc on eBay mentions their own 30 day warranty and "all sales final" making it a risky purchase if PA won't honor the warranty. But that looks like a real good deal on a 12" 650 watt sub, if it's as good as it looks. But you won't have those concerns by getting the Boston at OneCall. So  " Do 'ya feel lucky? Well.....do 'ya, punk? (Just doesn't sound the same coming from me, does it!)
Reply
post #9 of 19
7/3/09 at 7:27am
Thread Starter 
  There is another seller of the PA-120 on Ebay who claims to be a factory authorized dealer. It is Acoustic Sound Design.  The guy's name is Michael Embers.  I even gave him a call.  He seemed ok on the phone even if a little abrupt. But, I'm sure he is very busy so that is understandable. He did suggest I check out reviews online which I did and they are very impressive. 
   Oh, I must add one other possible choice. The BIC F12.  Same question about this one.  How hard of a hitter compared to the other two?  
   And, I am feeling much luckier now than before  .  Long live Clint!
Thanks,
Steve
Reply
post #10 of 19
7/3/09 at 8:39am
"Claims to be..." doesn't mean they are. It's best to check the manufacturers website to make sure. BTW, Sound Distributors of Las Vegas NV is listed on PA's website as an authorized on-line dealer. That "all sales final" thing is the only thing that would bother me.

It's going to be tough to find someone that can give an accurate comparison of Pa vs. Boston vs. BIC, etc. The best you can expect, other than actual owners comments, is to get a feel for the reputation that a brand has. From SVS is great to Bose sucks, that kind of thing.

Do a forum search of the brands and read some of the threads. But I wouldn't even try to say which might "go deeper" or "hit harder". There's just no way of knowing for sure without trying them in your own home.
Reply
post #11 of 19
7/3/09 at 9:40am
Yeah, it's going to be hard to find someone who has actually owned two of these subs and compared them directly.  Most of us buy one sub based on reputation on the various internet forums, and if it sounds good, better than what we had before we just keep it, since it's rather costly to ship these really heavy internet-direct subs back to the dealer.  Except those with upgrade-itis, who get bigger/badder/more expensive subs every year or two, and even those people tend to go bigger, not get another sub in the same price/size/power range.

So I would mostly go on cost + how you feel about warranty/return policy etc.
Reply
post #12 of 19
7/3/09 at 10:03am
Thread Starter 
  I believe that either of these would be good choice.  I know that it may not mean much but, since the Boston's price is discounted as much as it is right now, I will most likely jump on it.  
  I look forward to seeing what expression on wife's face will be when she hears this thing during one of the Jurassic Park movies.     

Edited to add that also feel very good about OneCall.com's reputation plus the two phone calls I've had with them. Not to mention how VERY impressed I have been so far with the Boston G51244 sub I installed in my car a few moths ago.   
Reply
post #13 of 19
7/3/09 at 1:34pm
Thread Starter 
  Here is hasty attempt at posting pic of my home theater set-up.  Just wanted to better show type of space I'm working with. Wife wanted the couch there so I didn't see any other option but to hang them from ceiling which is actually in dining room area. Notice the sub hiding in corner. 



  
Reply
post #14 of 19
7/3/09 at 1:40pm
Thread Starter 
  tried to post pic but was unsuccessful.
Reply
post #15 of 19
7/4/09 at 5:35am
Thread Starter 
   Well, I feel a bit silly.  I just finished checking out speaker settings and I was very surprised to find that Audyssey had sub level way down. It was down below 0!  I wonder why it would ever need to be set so low?  Another thing is that I had the mistaken idea that when using Audyssey you could not change individual settings without messing things up. I did read in manual that whatever speaker level settings you change will be lost when receiver is switched into standby mode. Anyway, I started by setting all the way up (+12). That was too much (boomy) so I finally settled on +8. This was just regular TV. I will be curious to hear how it sounds (feels) during DVD movie. 
   Because my only experience with any other sub is limited to the one in my car, I'm still unable to make good comparison So, I may go down to local Best Buy and check out their display models. 
    I was wrong in saying that Onkyo sub is so inadequate.  It still may be, just not as bad as I thought. This brings me to next question. Can someone tell me about how the Onkyo sub compares to the other subs mentioned in this thread. In other words. maybe now since my existing sub is "working" now, I do not have to feel such a rush about buying another one and can take more time to maybe shoot for possibly an SVS.          
Reply
post #16 of 19
7/4/09 at 7:01am
First, you have to understand what the -/+ numbers mean.  The idea is to get all your speakers to play at 75db IN YOUR ROOM.  This is why the numbers go from -12 to +12.  Negative number is normal.

Second, you may like the "boomy" sound you hear in a car sub better than the flat, deep sound you should be getting from a home theater sub.  If your idea of a good sub is hearing it 2 blocks before you see it, then Audyssey and subs like the ones from SVS are not for you.

Finally, even the lowest end SVS, HSU, ED, etc, will blow the Onkyo out of the water.  However, if you are happy with the Onkyo, then there is no reason to upgrade.  It is all about what you like, not what I like

EDIT:  I should add that if the negative trim number was -10 or more, you may have the volume on your sub turned up too loud.  Turn it down and re-run Audyssey.  Also, the PHASE should be set to 0 and the filter should be the highest (120hz or more) or should be bypassed if your sub has these controls.

Reply
post #17 of 19
7/4/09 at 7:30am
Quote:
Well, I feel a bit silly.  I just finished checking out speaker settings and I was very surprised to find that Audyssey had sub level way down. It was down below 0!  I wonder why it would ever need to be set so low?
 

In the back of my mind I felt something like that had happenned. That Onkyo sure isn't the best out there but it can play pretty loud. Anyway the biggest problem with these auto setup programs is the subwoofer. I'm sure a lot of it has to do with subwoofer placement and the settings on the back of the sub like David mentioned, but I've always had to make serious corrections to the volume and often times tweek the EQ when I'm able to (H/K's EZSet/EQ doesn't allow modification). Remember, these things are a "one size fits all" proposition and some tweeking is usually required                


Quote:
.I was wrong in saying that Onkyo sub is so inadequate.  It still may be, just not as bad as I thought. This brings me to next question. Can someone tell me about how the Onkyo sub compares to the other subs mentioned in this thread. In other words. maybe now since my existing sub is "working" now, I do not have to feel such a rush about buying another one and can take more time to maybe shoot for possibly an SVS.   

That may be the best plan in the long run.
 
Reply
post #18 of 19
7/4/09 at 7:55am
Thread Starter 
   Thanks, David. This will help me get dialed in.  There is so much I did not know. The "boomy" sound is what I do not like either. That is reason I chose Boston G512 sub in sealed enclosure for my car. I insisted on tight musically accurate bass. I very rarely listen to rap or hip hop, if at all; lots of George Thorogood and the like, though. I even installed Dynamat to help keep more sound inside of car. 
   I will try your sub and AVR adjustment suggestions.  I just checked on the back of sub and it only has the one gain control knob which was at about 3/4.  Probably too high?  It has no phase switch or anything else. I will check AVR setting controls again but, will have to wait for wife to get through with movie she is watching right now. 
   When you say "filter", is this the same as crossover?   
  Thanks again,
Steve  .        
Reply
post #19 of 19
7/4/09 at 7:59am
Thread Starter 
Thank you also, Gene.  I didn't see your reply until I had already posted previous reply. Boy, this learning curve I'm going through is testing my patience. I just want to say again how much I appreciate everyone's help.
 Steve
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home