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Official MULHOLLAND DRIVE Discussion Thread - Page 4

post #91 of 134
Ken McAlinden,

Really smart, thoughtful analysis of the film. I appreciate the way you put forth some of the concepts explored by MD. I am not so good at expressing myself clearly, which is why I am thankful for the HTF.

Greg Smith:
Quote:
Take published philosophical papers. They almost necessarily have either faulty arguments or faulty conclusions or both, so the author cannot write simply and clearly. He'd be found out.

I think I understand what your take on that is: do you mean to say that in order to argue a point of view, a philosopher or storyteller need use language very carefully in order to keep the concepts 'airtight?' I don't think that philosophers write vaguely in order to prevent being 'found out.' I think that the probing, critical analysis that philosophers do, involves deconstructing literary cliches and shortcuts. You cannot say something simply without conjuring up preconceived notions of a phrase, you you must break the phrasing down into it's basest components in order to avoid having your words misrepresented by a different interpretation.

In other words, I think that philosophers are not being 'sneaky' by using vague language, I think they are instead being 'careful.'

Joseph
post #92 of 134
I swear I must be the only person on earth who was disappointed in this movie because I understood the plot pretty much upon first watching (it wasn't until I watched it the second time that I figured out that the "Diane" section really isn't in chronological order at all).

The reason I've always watched certain Lynch movies over and over again (aside from the direction/cinematography and performances) is because the mystery never dies (as it did in Twin Peaks when the killer was revealed). I've watched Lost Highway at least 30 times and, although I've read some very good essays about what's going on, don't really see any of the ideas I've read supported by what's going on in the film.

Not so with MD. The minute the cowboy said time to wake up pretty girl, I got a very sick feeling in my stomach, and started praying for the rest of the movie that Lynch did not stoop to using the single most juvenile plot device ever. But he did and the movie is what it is. I'm sure I'll watch it many times, because of the beautiful images and Naomi Watts' performance, but it's never gonna be up there with Eraserhead and Fire Walk with Me and Lost Highway.
post #93 of 134
Not to move terribly off topic, but I must Joseph's retort to the comment on philosophical essays. Being a phil. major, I have read my fair share of philosophical essays, and I don't find the language sneaky or even vague. Rather, most writers use language that is far removed from popular culture and all the preconceived notions that come with being attached to pop culture. In fact, I have rarely read a paper/work in which the point/argument wasn't made completely clear to me. Whether I agree or not is another matter, but the material was always taken to its most basic form, and made easily accesible.

Lynch certainly is attempting to use obscure symbols and themes in order to evoke a sense of confusion in the viewer. Perhaps this is an attempt at forcing a rewatch of the movie, I don't know, but I think it is a genuine attempt at making the viewer think about the symbols and what they mean to oneself.

Though it may sound like a cop-out argument, I think Lynch designed some of the symbols to have multiple interpretations. We're smart people, and Lynch knows this. There are so many ways to read things, that Lynch would rather not beat one way of thinking down our throats. I for one commend the effort.

cheers!

Josh
post #94 of 134
Quote:
I don't find the language sneaky or even vague. Rather, most writers use language that is far removed from popular culture and all the preconceived notions that come with being attached to pop culture. In fact, I have rarely read a paper/work in which the point/argument wasn't made completely clear to me. Whether I agree or not is another matter, but the material was always taken to its most basic form, and made easily accesible.

Josh,

Agreed! The language of the philospher, to the layman, appears slippery and frustrating, but this language is a tool with which to break through a prevailing hegegmony.

Tom,

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the single most juvenile plot device ever.

Could you elaborate on that? It's the first time I've heard the phrase 'juvenile plot device' in accordance w/Lynch's work. I'm fascinated, please clarify.

Joseph
post #95 of 134
Quote:
Could you elaborate on that? It's the first time I've heard the phrase 'juvenile plot device' in accordance w/Lynch's work. I'm fascinated, please clarify.


I meant the way he tied in the pilot (which ends when Betty and Rita run out of Apt No. 17 when they see the dead body) to the rest of the movie by pretty explicitly (I thought) having the first part be Diane's dream. Perhaps that was his intention for the series all along (although that wouldn't make for a very long series, I think). I was writing short stories using that same idea when I was 9, which is why I think it's a pretty juvenile device ("and then the little boy fell out of bed and realized it was all a dream. The end"). Of course, Lynch handles it very well (certainly better than I ever could) and I really do enjoy the movie (got the dvd first day it came out), just not as much as I would if it were more like Fire Walk with Me. In that movie, the dream world effects the real world, whereas here it's only the real world (Diane's experiences at the end of the movie which precede the dream) which effect the dream world. That's a lot less satisfying to me, especially coming from Lynch.
post #96 of 134
Thanks, Tom. I totally see where you're coming from on that. I feel kind of dense, because upon my first viewing of MD, I was so caught up in the atmosphere that I didn't anticipate very much plot-wise.

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In that movie, the dream world effects the real world, whereas here it's only the real world (Diane's experiences at the end of the movie which precede the dream) which effect the dream world.

While for the most part I think that's true, the contention that the dream/waking world dynamic in Mulholland Drive is one way street is certainly debatable, don't you think?

Thanks for the thoughts. A truly interesting film to say the least.

Joseph
post #97 of 134
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While for the most part I think that's true, the contention that the dream/waking world dynamic in Mulholland Drive is one way street is certainly debatable, don't you think?


To a certain extent, I think it is. Not nearly as much as I would like it to be, however. The only part of MD that I think there's a lot of room for debate over is who/what is the bum behind Winkie's? Someone on an email discussion list I'm a part of had a theory on that I really like: the bum is Diane's conscience. If you look very closely (and check the credits), the bum is a woman -- a very, dirty, smelly woman, who definitely has some sort of relationship to Diane (she appears in the dream, and let's loose the little people at the end, which definitely effects a change in the real world). Diane is a woman who has done at least one very bad thing and is feeling very guilty over it, so it makes sense that if her conscience is symbolized in the movie it would be quite dirty.

But, assuming that I'm right and that just about everything in the last part of the movie happens out of chronological order and before the dream, other than the bum I don't think there's anything in the dream that isn't explainable by something we see in that last part.

Another thing I realized after the last time I watched it was that if Lynch hadn't edited it out of chronological order, the movie wouldn't be very interesting at all. There would be no mystery about what's happening in the dream. I'm not sure if that's really relevant to anything, though.
post #98 of 134
Quote:
a theory on that I really like: the bum is Diane's conscience

That was my theory too.

If the film had been edited chronologically, I may have been slightly intrigued, but a large part of me would have thought, "so what?" My guess would be that Lynch, with this film (and most of his other films) does not so much value what he is telling a story about (which I think you summed up pretty well so I won't repeat it), but how the story is being told, at what pace to reveal things to the audience. I realize that some films use stylized narrative as a gimmick to spice up an otherwise lackluster story, but Lynch's sense of mood, comic timing, horrific imagery and beauty all seem to salvage whatever derivative elements exist in the plot itself.

Joseph
post #99 of 134
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I realize that some films use stylized narrative as a gimmick to spice up an otherwise lackluster story, but Lynch's sense of mood, comic timing, horrific imagery and beauty all seem to salvage whatever derivative elements exist in the plot itself.


I absolutely agree. The one thing to remember when watching a David Lynch movie is that he set out to be a painter first. His early shorts were his attempt to making "moving paintings." I think Blue Velvet is the best example of this so far, but that's probably another thread.
post #100 of 134
The bum-as-conscience (or, I think more accurately, Diann'es subconscious or a representation of her mind, not necessarily something as specific as "concscience") idea holds with the fact that the guy in the diner who dreamed about him said that he [the monster] is "behind it," or something to that effect. I believe those two men were involved with the murder of Rita/Camille, so, it's basically showing us that Dianne/Betty is responsible for her death by ordering the hit.
post #101 of 134
I'm reviving this thread because I found Jack's thread come up. I just got done watching this movie, and I'd like to read some people's thoughts on it.
post #102 of 134
I meant the way he tied in the pilot (which ends when Betty and Rita run out of Apt No. 17 when they see the dead body) to the rest of the movie by pretty explicitly (I thought) having the first part be Diane's dream. Perhaps that was his intention for the series all along (although that wouldn't make for a very long series, I think). I was writing short stories using that same idea when I was 9, which is why I think it's a pretty juvenile device ("and then the little boy fell out of bed and realized it was all a dream. The end"). Of course, Lynch handles it very well (certainly better than I ever could) and I really do enjoy the movie (got the dvd first day it came out), just not as much as I would if it were more like Fire Walk with Me. In that movie, the dream world effects the real world, whereas here it's only the real world (Diane's experiences at the end of the movie which precede the dream) which effect the dream world. That's a lot less satisfying to me, especially coming from Lynch.


I think you're being a little harsh. Keep in mind that MD started as a TV series and was then made into a movie with some reshoots/additional scenes. Lynch needed the party scene to explain the characters origin and to pull things together (somewhat). To me, the nice bit or work was having the limo stop on Mulholland Drive to let her off there.

I also find it interesting that you were bothered by the "dream" device but aren't critical of the (way over-used) temporary amnesia premise ....

BTW, Mark Pfieffer just mentioned in a Software thread that Robert Forster had the story explained to him as basically exactly what I have been touting as the true narrative all along -

All a death dream, the fantasy right before she dies. Forster said that it all occurs from the moment the bullet leaves the gun to the time she dies, similar to just the instant right before death after having been shot which is what I was saying.


This is supposedly supported by a post in another forum which said (referring to Robert Forster ...

Forster was doing some charity bartending when a guy came up to him and told him he'd seen Mulholland Drive and gave him the above explanation. It made sense to him. Forster ran this past one of the producers who said that although Lynch doesn't tell people what his movies are about, this pretty much hits the mark.


So, based on a post here of a supposed account from Forster's booze night and subsequent conversation with an unnamed producer (who might not even know Lynch's account) - that is your support for your theory? If I'm ever on trial for murder .. would you be on my jury?

My understanding is that the theory that dreams occur in a short span of time (rapid eye movement) is no longer considered valid. Even then, there is a difference between a dream and a 2+ hour movie.

Has someone has already mentioned, if it is all a dream then where does the POV shot from her head hitting the pillow come from. By the way, the head hitting the pillow shot in the opening is a face down (into the pillow) shot while the suicide scene in the end is a face-up and then to the side shot.
post #103 of 134
Okay, I'm late to the party, but I'll throw in my two cents. I thought the film was wonderful. I watched it, turned it over in my head a few times, watched it again, and formed some stronger opinions. I read the Salon article since then and it is pretty close to the way I interpreted it, with different emphasis.

The pre-credits POV shot of the head moving toward the bed strongly suggests that what follows in the first 2/3 of the film is the elaborate re-imagining of "defeated" Diane's real Hollywood story as "plucky empowered" Betty's fantasy Hollywood story. The last third of the movie is "mostly" reality and is told largely in flashback as indicated by the reappearance of the repossessed piano ashtray when the flashbacks begin in earnest. This is pretty much consistent with Josh's take which I read above.

Diane imbues her fantasy self with an undeniable talent that is recognized by all, and yet she will not let opportunities for success get in the way of her devotion to "her gal" -- the same kind of selfless quality she feels the real Camilla should have showed her. She imbues Camilla's "Rita" fantasy self as being totally dependent on her - even to the extent of having no sense of her own identity - via the amnesia device. The supression of ones own identity via dependence on another is arguably what got Diane to the point she was at in the "real world".

Diane's delusional view of the Hollywood machinery becomes an elaborate conspiracy network that will allow only a "Camilla" to succeed despite all arguments of merit from the fantasy Hollywood that "normally" rewards those scruffy apple-cheeked super-talented out-of-towners fresh off of the bus/plane. She even manages to include an emasculating beat-down for her real-world romantic rival. She populates this fantasy world with characters from her Hollywood experience with whom she has had varying degrees of contact.

Many of the elements of her delusion, the monster/homeless man, the blue box, the search for "Diane", represent connections or even portals out of the delusion to the real world.

Her delusional attempts to rationalize her guilt are ultimately unsuccessful - represented by the encouraging laughter of the old couple becoming an obscene hyena-like threatening mockery, and she kills her self.

Silencio -- Roll credits.


Agreed, and well written.

Diane "wakes up" to two realities within her dream - about herself and about Rita/Camilla. First, Rita.

Diane wants to believe that Rita is someone struggling with her identity - i.e. what she wants, who she is (lesbian?).
The blonde Rita allows the dream to move towards where Diane wants it go - to be more like her and for the two of them to be together intimately. Club Silencio is the "awakening" to the lie. People and words are not as they always appear. This realization hits Betty hard as she shakes in her seat and is continued in remorse through the crying scene. The coming to light is represented by the blue cube which appears in her bag. After that scene, Betty no longer believes in Rita's innocence and departs from her/that dream.

The second reality is around herself/Diane/Betty. The multi-talented, beauty who is going to light the town on fire. First, we see the conspiracies that keep her from being successful. She is also well supported from loved ones Aunt Ruth and from strangers wishing her well (couple at the airport, Coco).

The reality is that Diane is no Betty (pun intended).

She is just another face in Hollywood scraping by with little support or loved ones helping her on. Camilla may own her success to more than her acting talent but, so be it - that doesn't hurt Diane's chances.

In the dream, she comes to a realization about herself as to her talent, outlook, as well as her murderous intent (the truth of this represented by the blue key). This (being shown the light) comes to her, symbolically as well - by the second appearance of the blue cube. Now, her madness takes over from the dream/reality. The same couple that supported her (loving manner) is now gone, replaced with them hating her. She kills herself and her last vision is that of her ultimate nightmare - being a horrid, homeless woman - all alone in the world.

Well, if Ken was late to the party in April, I guess I really missed the boat. Thanks Dome for bumping the thread!

So, what do you think?
post #104 of 134
Quote:
My understanding is that the theory that dreams occur in a short span of time (rapid eye movement) is no longer considered valid. Even then, there is a difference between a dream and a 2+ hour movie.

You will want to avoid Waking Life then, as it's also a piece of science hack crap apparently.

I wasn't aware that science had finally defined dreams so well. I thought they were still monitoring EM patterns in the brain and trying to associate that activity to dreams. Looks like I've been out of the loop so long that theories have now been proven so factual that a director/writer is a fool to imagine things in any other manner.


My point had been that the theory that I (and others) have kicked around has at least a little bit more credibility than something like the Salon article. And I just referenced Waking Life for a very specific reason...remember when Bugs Life and Antz came out around the same time, or Armageddon and Deep Impact, or etc etc. Well maybe my MD theory is crazy, but it sure would fit with the pattern of 2 films following a similar concept being developed at almost the same time thanks to WL.

If you have NOT seen Waking Life, I would suggest taking a look at it first, and then rewatching MD, and then consider both ideas being kicked around H'wood, agents, whomever around the same time.


Quote:
if it is all a dream then where does the POV shot from her head hitting the pillow come from
Dang, you're right. I never realized a film cannot mix POV and omniscient shots.

I mean what the hell was Billy Wilder thinking in Sunset Blvd. What a screw up to have a dead guy lying in the pool narrating the film for us AFTER he's dead. Don't even get me started on Fight Club, or Zentropa (Trier).

But stepping beyond Diane's life and dream to show the last physical actions involving her falling/dying body as reality hits, THAT'S something that makes no sense??
post #105 of 134
Quote:
My understanding is that the theory that dreams occur in a short span of time (rapid eye movement) is no longer considered valid. Even then, there is a difference between a dream and a 2+ hour movie.


If science can debunk the plot of a film and make it invalid, then every sci-fi film ever made sure has a lot of explaining to do.

DJ
post #106 of 134
I loved this film. I'm inclined to think of the whole thing as taking place in a dream. The meeting with the hitman (the "mission accomplished" signal seems oddly contrived and symbolic-like a dream) and the moments preceeding the final gunshot (hence, IMO, the gunshot itself) included.

None of which detracts one iota from my immense enjoyment of this work.
post #107 of 134
When they went to the theater house and the guy was basically saying "it s all an illusion....all an illusion" all of a sudden the woman with the blonde hair starts to shake violently....why?
post #108 of 134
Quote:
When they went to the theater house and the guy was basically saying "it s all an illusion....all an illusion" all of a sudden the woman with the blonde hair starts to shake violently....why?


Because she's being violently forced out of the fantasy. It's like someone slapping in you in the face or spilling cold water on you when you're not prepared for it.
post #109 of 134
Seth:


I also thought I would add 2 things:

1) It's great that people are putting a lot of thought into this film and have allowed it to put them through mental calesthentics. This is something that I'm sure Lynch is hoping people will walk away doing, although I suspect his motives are to touch the subconscious and the emotion. His exchange with Roger Ebert at the academy awards, in respect specifically to Mulholland Drive, revealed as much.

2) I may be wrong, but I sense a need here to create some kind of logical, scientifically accurate mathematical equation out of the film's events. I may be dead wrong, but I'm getting a sense that people want to get some final clarification about Lynch's intent, Forster's interpretation, etc. Maybe unearthing all the theories extrapolated from dream research will solve the puzzle, maybe doing a chronological frame-by-frame will yield the answers you seek. Or maybe... just maybe, the film is meant to linger on in our imaginings, never being so dissected as to lose its potency. Perhaps we are not meant to put this animal to rest, but instead watch it pace slowly, hungrily, just on the edge of our perhipheral vision, affecting each of us, respectively, with fear, fascination, excitement, apathy, and other states that inspire us to our own creative ends.

By all means seek out the final clarification... but by no means expect to find it.

~j
post #110 of 134
Yes, for me the greatest enjoyment comes not from achieving an understanding (though that might seem otherwise here in this thread), but rather I enjoy it because it is simply so WATCHABLE.

It pulls you in with these beautiful shots and rhythmic scenes that are not so much catchy as they are gripping in some manner.

I finally saw 8 1/2 tonight for the first time. I was amazed at the similarity in that one regard, the watchablity despite the disjoint narrative. Any single scene being able to work so strongly while isolated from the rest of the narrative.


For both, there are themes and even a narrative, but as much of it is felt as is explicitly told. Neither commit to abstract at any point, but I think we could say that both narratives have been abstracted, deformed, from the normal patterns.
post #111 of 134
Ok, I am seven months later than the last poster, but I want to try my hand at what happened in this film. Then I'll read back and see what others said. And then I'll watch the film again.

I am starting by saying that this film did not involve a dream.

Diane, jilted lover of the brunette Camille, becomes so angered at the party which Camille has driven her to, that she draws the attention of some evil forces - evil forces that have the ability to pull strings and reshape reality.
So step one: the evil forces notice her rage at the party.

Next, she hires someone who she thinks is a scruffy hitman. He isn't - he works for the evil forces, though you wouldn't know it to look at him. Think of him as a little devil. The diner customer who we met at the start of the film is there, observing the transaction (which later triggers his dream of seeing the face of evil lurking behind the diner). Diane thinks she's in the real world hiring a real hitman. Not so; she's making a deal with an evil force who will change reality (using the blue box, discussed later). She gives the money, and the deal is done. She's told she'll be given a blue key when it is done. The hitman laughs when she asked what the key will open. If he told her not to open anything blue she happens to come across, she'd have been fine, but he's a little devil, amused that she might mess up her wish.

Reality at this moment is being restructed. The restructuring involves several things, including Diane becoming Betty, but I'll take them one at a time:

Next to happen is the start of the film: Diane's wish that Camille be done away with emerges, courtesy of the evil forces. The drive to the party becomes a drive by Camille, alone in the limo, in which she is about to be shot.

Just as happens in the film, an accidental car wreck disrupts this plan. Who caused this car wreck? It's spelled out pretty clearly: Good forces - who have a long haired scruffy guy (the one in the office building) working for them much in the same way that the evil forces have the scruffy hitman working for them. In fact they're both pals (of a sort) from opposite sides of the good and evil tracks. Probably a demon and an angel, in a sense. Think Dogma. Apparently the forces of good wrote in a car wreck to try to offset what evil was up to. Good and evil literally collided!

So Rita not only lives, but she carries with her the bag of guilt, the bag of cash, which Diane had hired the hitman with. Rita becomes amnesiac not only because of the accident, but because she's in an in-between state, neither the victim of evil nor quite a messenger of good who will bring Diane's guilt home to Betty/Diane. She's neither realm's property at the moment, but divine providence leads her straight to Betty.

Betty, the chipper, newly-arrived young woman, is part of the restructuring of reality which evil was doing. They restructured reality so that Diane gets a fresh start as Betty. And it will stay this way as long as the blue box stays locked. The old Diane becomes a corpse.

Meanwhile, we get to see the restructuring at work - the film director is being told to cast a blond Camille to be the lead in his film (replacing every trace of the brunette Camille completely - a different person from out of nowhere); the forces of evil are very determined that this must happen. They're rearranging a great deal, but some of it involves forcing those pesky humans with their free will to do what they're told.

The cowboy - cowboys herd cattle. This cowboy herds humans. He herds the film director into making the decision which is the "right" decision for evil, but we later will see him herding someone else for other reasons, so he apparently doesn't take sides. He stands on the edge of the mountains and the valley. He's neutral.

Now, the problem with Rita showing up is that her arrival prompts Betty to proceed on an Angel-Heart-esque quest.

As Betty helps Rita discover the mystery of Rita's amnesia, Betty is uncovering the clues that reality had been restructured as she'd wished it to be. Rita speaks in her sleep about the nightclub - her subconscious is aware that there is an illusion at work. Rita takes Betty to the nightclub, where Betty has a visceral reaction to the concept that reality as she knows it is an illusion. It seems likely to me that the theater itself is one of those interfaces between reality and another world - in this case, you could think of that club as the White Lodge of TP, in the sense that the message that reality has been restructured is not a message that the forces of evil would want Betty to know. The forces of good are acting like a conscience, using Rita as the instrument to lead Betty to the discovery. (The nightclub is the White Lodge, the mysterious glass room with the dwarf from TP is the Black Lodge).

When Betty has that visceral reaction at the theater, the blue box appears in her bag - the blue box that Betty/Diane was not supposed to be aware of if the deal with evil had gone perfectly and Rita hadn't wandered back.

The box is unlocked, and all the restructured reality that evil had restructured according to Diane's wishes falls back apart - Betty becomes Diane again, no longer living the happy life as Betty. (That this happens a moment before the key is even put in the box may just be a way for Lynch to show that time is essentially unraveling at this point - Betty vanishes before the key it put in and turned because once the key IS put in and turned, everything that had been restructured by evil starts to UNravel - see?).

The cowboy herds her back into Diane's body (apparently the cowboy doesn't take sides, he just herds humans according to whichever way reality - as decided by good and evil's vying - dictates).

Indeed, now back in Diane's body, and all that had been restructured now having fallen back to normal, the hitman Diane hired is no longer even evident as an agent of evil, but is now manifest simply as a mundane hitman (the blue key becomes literally, a blue metal key unusual ONLY for its color, rather than the mystical key). Diane is essentially screwed at this point - she's jilted, evil did not succede in restructuring reality, and yet she is tormented by the awareness that she did make a pact with evil.

She kills herself.

Not sure whether the brunette Camille lived or died or whatnot, need to see it again. UPDATE: The brunette Camille DID die, evident by her momentary appearance at the end "You came back!". I think Lynch was letting us know she'd gone to heaven. But how she was killed is not known or shown. All we know is that it didn't involve reality being changed or having Diane transform into Betty.

Why the heck are people saying this was a dream? Lynch plays with concepts of good and evil forces, and humans with free will adding their input to the mix. Not dreams.
post #112 of 134
Quote:
so it makes sense that if her conscience is symbolized in the movie it would be quite dirty.
I just rewatched this the other day myself and would like to comment on the Bum as conscience thing. Sounds reasonable, but let's keep in mind that there is a duality of theme in the film. Lynch appears to be indicting or at least debating the ideals and the idea of Hollywood.

It has been suggested that the bum represents the underside of Hollywood, the dirty, filthy side.

I would point out the film's ending contrasts the image of the bum (Hollywood bad/failures) with the fantasy image of Betty/Rita in beautiful white light (Hollywood glitz/dream).

Contrast/compare is a common literary device and strongly appears to be part of this film's coda.


Sorry Will, I can't buy into your theory nor the idea that Lynch wouldn't deal with a dream sequence. Lynch has done plenty of reality-based films (such as Elephant Man or Blue Velvet) even when twisting the characters in those realities.

It has been suggested by others that Lost Highway is a dream sequence film.


And the text itself lends credence to the idea. Certainly a common aspect of dreams is that they involved reality incorporated in slightly misplaced manners, such as having people you know play different roles in your dream. Also, the idea that in one part we have a rather plain blue key given to Diane in surroundings that involve very normal characters, behavior, and settings, and then earlier in the film (what would be the dream) you have another blue key, and that key is idealistic version of a key.

Also we have the breathing and head hitting the pillow (apparently) sequence at the beginning of the film which suggests the beginning of the time frame, the outer frame of the film. This is also a common device that goes back to Dr. Caligari and beyond.

The dream aspect involves a multitude of logical clues in the film as indicators. It may not be right, but there sure is a lot to indicate it. I don't really see any indicators of "evil forces".

Menacing characters are another thing, and THAT IS a theme that Lynch explores. Those characters don't have to be servents of Satan or some other force to be menacing. In fact one thing that Lynch always seems to explore is how such a menacing feeling can be created outside any specific narrative menace. Just by using music, cinematography, and mise-en-scene (and character behavior - not action - as part of that) Lynch creates these moods. To me that more closely resembles how Tarintino created violent moods even without depicting violence directly (violence as a character which he describes as existing in Resevoir Dogs, for example).
post #113 of 134
I guess it depends on whether one feels that elements in Lynch's stories which seem surreal are real or imaginary. In Twin Peaks, was the giant in Cooper's imagination, or was he really there? Was the Black Lodge imaginary, or really there? I'm in the "really there" camp, and so I think Mulholland Drive is similar to the film Angel Heart.

The hitman and the scruffy guy (who he kills) pretty much seals it as being not-a-dream, for me. "The history of the world," indeed.

Another indication that it is reality being remade according to Diane's wishes, and not a dream, is that much of the film is not scenes that involve Diane. While one CAN dream scenes in which one is not present, saying it is a dream starts to fail at that point, particulaly when there are scenes IN WHICH THE PEOPLE WHOSE LIVES HAVE BEEN AFFECTED TRY TO FIGHT AGAINST WHAT IS HAPPENING IN what you're calling a "dream". The director, for example - the man who was about to be engaged to the Camille, suddenly finds that not only isn't he engaged to Camille anymore, but he's the victim of an adulterous wife! Talk about revenge! And he loses his film. His life is being torn apart and yet, he fights against these turns of events - why, if it is a dream? Why not just have him torn apart, and end it there.

A wish fullfilment to be sure, but I don't think it was meant to be a dream.

Not to mention, in TPFWWM, a blue rose indicated an interface of our world and other realms. In this film, it's a blue key and blue box. He's being pretty overt about this being one of those kinds of films.
post #114 of 134
Ive always believed that the last 40 minutes with Diane were "really happening" while the first 2 hours(the scenes until when Camille/Rita opens the box) were Fantasy.

The idea of the homeless lady being Diane throws a spin on things but I dont know if I agree.Dianes choices were jail or death.

It was mentioned that the police were asking questions about Diane and I always figured that the knocking on the door was the Police coming to take her away. Delusional(Old Couple chasing her/seeing Camilla) from guilt and with the police about to take her away, she killed herself

I always figured figured the Old Couple as being Dianes "Innocence" before the cruel realities of Hollywood hardened her. Notice the Leave It To Beaver dialogue Betty uses during the Fantasy sequence(first 2 hours).
post #115 of 134
Regarding Will's comments about the "really there" camp in post #114, I am in the camp that says that the Lodge, BOB, Cream Corn Boy and the Giant were really there in Twin Peaks. I thought that was too obvious to be disputed, and was surprised to discover that people question whether BOB even existed. However, I definitely regard Lost Highway and Mulholland Drive as being largely dreams. Interesting theory, Will, but ultimately I'm not sure I'm convinced by it. But I'm willing to change my mind if you give us more evidence.

I noticed the link in this post to Roger Ebert's essay on the film. However, the essay has been taken off the web, and all I can find is his review. Does anyone by any chance have access to the text of the essay, and if so, could they post it? I would be interested in reading it. Thanks.

EDIT (26 October 2004): The new Roger Ebert site is up and has the essay available. For those people going back and reading 18-month-old posts, here it is...

Quote:
Lost on 'Mulholland Drive'

Roger Ebert / April 16, 2002


BOULDER, Colo.--We have finally met defeat. A film has resisted our efforts to pound it into submission, Every year I join some 1000 students and townspeople here at the University of Colorado on a 5-day, 12-hour shot-by-shot trek through a film. Using the freeze-frame and slow-motion features of a DVD, we track down symbols, expose hidden messages, analyze visual strategies, expose special effects, and in general satisfy ourselves that we have extracted every fugitive scrap of meaning from the movie under discussion.

This year the target was David Lynch's "Mulholland Drive." It is a film I greatly admire, and indeed it was on my Top 10 list for 2001. I still admire it, perhaps more than before. But I also find it more of a mystery. Here at the Conference on World Affairs, we gathered in Macky Auditorium every afternoon to look at the film together. We were sitting in the dark, so the voices were anonymous. Anyone in the hall could shout out "Stop!," and we would freeze-frame the film, and discuss what the shouter found intriguing. This process was named "Cinema Interruptus" by the late Prof. Howard Higman, founder of the conference.

Because I've been doing this at Boulder for 30 years, the audience includes seasoned veterans. Not much eludes our collective mind and eye. We've looked at classics like "Citizen Kane," "Vertigo" and "The Third Man," modern masterpieces like "Raging Bull," "The Silence of the Lambs" and "Pulp Fiction," foreign landmarks like "La Dolce Vita" and "Persona," and contentious films like "Fight Club"--last year's selection, a film I remained convinced, at the end of the week, consisted of two brilliant acts and a broken ending.

This year I chose "Mulholland Drive" because I wanted to get to the bottom of its dream images and shifting realities. "The characters fracture and recombine like flesh caught in a kaleidoscope," I wrote in my original review. "'Mulholland Drive' isn't like 'Memento,' where if you watch it closely enough you can hope to explain the mystery."

Analysis of the film ranges all the way from "it's all a dream" to a 6,000-word dissection on Salon.com which attempts to account for every scene (although even Salon, confronted with the movie's mysterious little blue box, admitted "We don't know about the box").

In my review, I wrote, "'Mulholland Dr.' is all dream. There is nothing that is intended to be a waking moment. Like real dreams, it does not explain, does not complete its sequences, lingers over what it finds fascinating, dismisses unpromising plotlines. If you want an explanation for the last half hour of the film, think of it as the dreamer rising slowly to consciousness, as threads from the dream fight for space with recent memories from real life, and with fragments of other dreams--old ones and those still in development."

Did I still believe this at the end of the week? Yes, and definitely no.

The last half hour of the film does suggest a level of reality, although I still believe that real life and fragments of dream are interconnected. The more times you watch the film, the more the buried structure reveals itself. At the most basic level, I believe "Mulholland Drive" involves a failed blonde actress named Diane Selwyn, disappointed in love by a brunette woman, who hires a hit-man to kill her. Neither Diane nor her lover looks the same at the reality level as at the dream level, although the blonde actress is played all the way through by Naomi Watts.

Most of the movie involves Selwyn's dreams or nightmares, in which she appears as a chirpy young actress named Betty. Her brunette love in the dreams is a slinky 40s-style sexpot named Rita (played by Laura Elena Herring). In the dreams, Betty and "Rita" (a name taken by the amnesiac sexpot from a Rita Hayworth movie poster) investigate Rita's missing identity, Nancy Drew-style, and become involved, at various levels of reality, with the casting and production of a movie. There is also material about gangsters who are dictating a casting choice to the film's director (Justin Theroux). There are scenes at which neither "Betty" not "Rita" are present; there is a haunting performance in a nightclub; there is a monstrous homeless man (played by a woman) behind a diner where several crucial conversations take place; musical numbers are performed; a decomposing corpse makes an appearance; a man in a wheelchair wields great power; a cheery elderly couple turn up later reduced to cockroach-size, and there are two lesbian scenes of unusual frankness for today's Hollywood--perhaps because one is Diane Selwyn's erotic dream, and the other her masturbatory fantasy.

Well, yes, you're thinking, I've seen the movie, so tell me something new. But that, you see, is precisely what I was unable to do by the end of the week. Having trekked through "Mulholland Drive" in great detail, I confess myself still outside looking in. I speak for many of my fellow Interrupti, whose interpretations ranged from "her life is flashing before her eyes at the moment of death" to "it's a version of the Odyssey, with every character corresponding to a character in Greek mythology."

In short: "Mulholland Drive" resists, defies and finally defeats logical explanation. It is impossible to produce a consistent precis of the film that accounts for everything. And there is an admirable reason for this: Like a dream, it does not have to make sense.

And yet the movie still plays--like a movie. Every individual sequence is satisfactory and effective in and of itself. It's just that they resist efforts to make them neatly add up. Often we seem to watch fragments of other movies, or threads of this one never completed.

An early conversation between two detectives, for example, hits the familiar rhythm of a police procedural, but then the cops never turn up again. The first lesbian scene is moody and erotic (and contains the movie's best laugh), but later we suspect that both of the women in the scene may in fact be the same woman--that Betty is Diane's dream-self, and Rita is a Betty-fantasy replacing Diane's real-life partner, who is not as attractive.

In our shot-by-shot progress, we found many details I had not seen before. Consider the mysterious man in the wheelchair. He is played by Michael J. Anderson, who is 43 inches tall. But is the man in the wheelchair a dwarf? Or is the body in the wheelchair a fake, with Anderson standing behind it, his face positioned atop the dummy's shirt collar? That's what someone suggested. We looked at it several times. Looks like it could be possible.

Something else we spotted: In a closing scene, as Diane reaches into a bureau drawer to take out a gun, there is a split-second glimpse of--the mysterious blue box. Earlier in the film, this box is introduced with a triangular blue key. In one of the "real" scenes, a hit man tells Diane that when she finds a blue key (not the same one), she will know the hit has taken place. Perhaps the blue box represents no secrets, but is simply a possession which Diane's dream combines with a blue key to symbolize the death she has paid for. And the monster behind the diner, who has the blue box in its paper bag, may be a displaced form of the decomposing corpse that Betty and Rita find in the dream, and that Diane imagines is the result of the hit? (Unless, of course, that is Diane's corpse.)

And so on. One clue to the movie may be the confusing number of blonde actresses. Naomi Watts plays Betty and Diane, who look so different (Salon notes) that Watts deserves praise for creating such different appearances, Then there is a waitress in the diner, named Diane Selwyn, who is not played by Watts (although the dreamer may have transferred her own name to the waitresses' name tag). And a singer in an audition scene who looks confusingly like Betty, but isn't.

I mention all these blondes not to explain them, but to remind us of a 1977 Luis Bunuel film named "That Obscure Object of Desire," in which two different actresses interchangeably played the heroine, with no explanation, and without any of the other characters noticing. Bunuel was a surrealist, and Lynch's work has always suggested that he treasures him. Perhaps "Mulholland Dr." can be seen as the first surrealist film of the 21st century.

I suspect the best way to appreciate "Mulholland Dr." is simply to experience it as a series of scenes, each one with a power and consistency of its own, that do not "add up" to a logical plot summary, or cannot be reduced to an explanation--although various patterns and narratives form out of the mist and then evaporate. As we all staggered out at the end of our Boulder odyssey, that seemed to be the consensus--although I am still getting e-mails from people who have suddenly figured it all out.
post #116 of 134
Quote:
suddenly finds that not only isn't he engaged to Camille anymore, but he's the victim of an adulterous wife!

This actually makes tons of sense as a dream indicator because this director in fact was the victim of an adulterous wife before he got with Camilla.

In the "flashback" section when they announce their engagement he is telling the anecdote of their divorce..."she got the pool man and I got the pool."


That's exactly why many of us do see this as a dream, because it IS what Diane wants things to be mixed with bits of reality that she experienced before.

You see some cowboy type at a Hollywood party and you make him a character in your dream. You see a girl kiss your ex-gf and she becomes "Camilla" in the dream getting the choice part in the film. You get a key and ask what it goes to and in your dream you create a box for it to go with, and make both look fantastical rather than real. The hitman goes through a comical series of shootings that include starting an electrical fire by shooting a vaccum.

It's very odd that nothing as weird and distorted as that occurs after they open the blue box and "flashbacks" begin.

People aren't just pulling "dream" out of their asses, there are tons of standard devices and indicators in MD to suggest it.

Now if Lynch were to come out and say "you guys are wrong, that's not what I meant at all", then I certainly would concede. But that doesn't mean that I would feel stupid for seeing the dream evidence.


And as I mentioned earlier in this defense, Waking Life follows a very similar narrative and shows that the idea was at least out there being pitched at some point. Did Linklater or Lynch affect each other, I don't know, but it A) seems possible and B) shows that the death dream concept isn't coming out of left field. At least one quality director was working on the idea some 3 years ago, so why not 2 of them?


Quote:
Notice the Leave It To Beaver dialogue Betty uses during the Fantasy sequence
I agree on that point too. It's another aspect that fits a dream mold quite well. It's the sort of fake imagined version of reality, not just a twisted version. Her behavior is noticeably different between the first and second section, not just those around her.

Also characters come and go in her "dream", which fits the stream of consciousness aspect. Forster's detective for example. He supplies that generic "cops would investigate" idea in her dream and then she moves on to something else and forgets it. Were that a "twisted reality" it would seem likely that those detectives would continue to be active on the case, meaning that another scene would be appropriate.
post #117 of 134
I thought I'd chime in with a few ideas or two. (I love this thread.)

First time that I saw Mulholland Drive, I had REALLY mixed feelings. I couldn't make heads or tales, and while the film was thrilling, it lacked the kind of logic that I was used to. I recently decided to give the film another shot and purchase it for $10. After a second viewing, I can solidly say that I love this film. Now, I agree and disagree with various interpretations of the film, and I had an idea of my own. It's kind of rough, but I thought I'd try it out in this forum.

I think that the cowboy is a much more important, much bigger part of the story than the two scenes that he's featured prominently in. To go along with this theory, you have to wipe your mind of the other interpretations. The only reality in this is that the POV at the beginning, the cowboy telling Diane/Betty to wake up, and the suicide.

Diane/Betty (who I'll refer to as just Naomi) is a housewife, perhaps in a town far away from Hollywood, who's married to the cowboy. He's an oppressive husband, always trying to take control of Naomi, perhaps abusing her. Her dreams are her only escape from this horrible man. In her dreams, fragmented as they are, she envisions the following things:

1. Laura Harring's character "Rita" is both a facet of her and the hope of finding a loving relationship. She loves her, and it doesn't matter that they are both women, it's just a romance.

2. The director in the first 2/3 of the film is an exploration of a man who is being ripped apart at all sides. His movie is being taken away from him, his wife is cheating on him. He's desperate, and when he sees the "Betty" character, the dreaming Naomi is picturing a man who needs her, yet another character who does so.

Now, both 1 and 2 are connected by two characters who are lost (may it be within the Hollywood system or literally) and who need or desire "Betty." This is Naomi feeling a lose of purpose in her own life, feeling worthless, thanks to her husband. "Rita" and "Director" carry Naomi's characteristics.

3. The perfect "Hollywood" where Betty is wanted, all acts upon Naomi's desire to be wanted, but is also a goal. Naomi's secret desire is to become a big Hollywood star. Many dreary housewives desire this in real life, and Naomi is just another one.

4. The "Hollywood," seen in the last third of the film, is more menacing, and has similar characters. In this, "Diane" is simple a hack actress trying to hold on to a relationship, and everyone looks at her with contempt.

3 and 4 hint at my final point which is part of Naomi's being bipolar. Drawn by depression, Naomi has become bipolar, and this is captured in her dream/fantasy. I feel that the majority of the film is the same dream.

Situations switch, characters switch from light to dark. Coco is friendly, and then cold. Adam desires her, and then belittles her. "Rita" needs her, and then rejects her. But scenes switch from being light to dark rather quickly and unexplainable things happen.

5. Every character in this film plays on Naomi's conflicted, schizophrenic feelings. Rita doesn't know what to do to hide from her unnamed perusers, the director feels helpless against the Hollywood system (and is later threatened by the Cowboy), and the man at the coffee shop is frightened over a force that he can't explain.

These are very raw feelings. They're vague, but exact in that a horrible fate will befall all of these characters, including "Diane" who is being shunned by the community. In her mind, the hit-man represents her resolve that she has decided to commit suicide. His being comical in one scene feeds off the light/dark aspect of her personality.

In the end, it's about a desperate housewife, driven to depression, and later suicide, by an oppressive husband. Suicide is the only out in Naomi's life, and death is a solution in both dream and reality.

Most of the film acts in "dream logic." I, just last night, had a very bizarre dream where things were happening inexplicably but that it all tied in to not my life, but my current "emotional state," if you will. I recently lost a job, I've been getting tight money-wise, a good friendship recently ended, but a script of mine is being considered by the BBC. My dream acted on all of these feelings, and despite my being a writer, there wasn't a complete story to it all. Without going into detail, chains, fire, a smiling man, and a DVD cover box with my picture on it appeared many times and in many forms. It's stuck with me, because they are strong images.

Mulholland Drive is much the same, acting on feelings than a traditional storyline. David Lynch has said that his films are meant to be emotional experiences. There have been many interpretations to Lynch's work, but perhaps work on a "dream logic." Maybe that's the key to understand all of Lynch's work.

It's an old cliche, might it be the puzzle-solver to David Lynch's films. "It was all a dream..."

ANYWAY.... That's just a theory. Any thoughts?
post #118 of 134
I appreciate the more daring interpretations of the film provided by Graham and Will, but I'm not sure they aren't wrong.

(Likely spoilers for Lost Highway to follow)

I should preface my comments by saying I haven't seen Mulholland in a bit. My main problem with Mulholland Drive is the similarity to Lost Highway. Lost Highway is a brilliant film to me, the kind of film Kubrick was likely talking about when he told Steven Spielberg he wanted to really change the form of movies. Who knows why it doesn't get the respect it honestly deserves, but I think it will be like an American Peeping Tom, something that will be seen for what it actually is 20 years from now.

They both seem (using the conservative reads of both of them) about a character who has repressed a murder they committed. The stories are told in their head, so they do not follow a linear progression. An excellent analysis of Lost Highway can be found here. That board is one of the best Lynch boards, by the way.

So, MD felt a little like a retread to me. I'd like to squash that, because I absolutely love some scenes in it-starting at the Silencio scene all the way through the end has to be some of the best filmmaking I've seen in a while. If it didn't feel like a rehash, it'd absolutely be one of my favorite Lynch films. As it stands, I still think it's very good.

Can someone please set me straight? Is this just Lynch enjoying something, so he explores it again?
post #119 of 134
IF MD is a retread, then to me, he got it right the second time. I liked MD ALOT better than Lost Highway.

The first time I saw LH, I hated it. I saw it again a couple years ago and liked it alot better - but I think MD is a step up in everyway (Directing,choreography,soundtrack,atmosphere,char acterization,etc)

Its too bad we got such a barebones half assed DVD of MD, because I would love some insight into the pilot and where they were planning on going with this as a show. Lynch should have tried HBO or Showtime instead of a network TV.
post #120 of 134
I love that we won't have any definitive answers for this film. It's been awhile since a film had me wondering and talking after I saw it, so I've enjoyed hearing this discussion. Jon, as it happens there is a Korean DVD, not a bootleg, which has a ten minute making-of, and a 4 or 5 minute interview with some of the cast; I've just ordered it from some shop on ebay and it is sold fairly often there if you do a search. As I say I am pretty sure it is not a bootleg, but I'll know more in a couple weeks.

I too wish they had featured some info about the television version of it. Would have been great to see Naomi in a weekly series! Anything else of hers reccommended?
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