Is a show Public Domain? - Page 2

Re: Is a show Public Domain?

Travis, I read what he said and that's not what he said. Here, let me quote:


Amazon, and I repeat, Amazon does not sell these bootleg items, the sellers do. Amazon simply acts as a middleman, processing the payment. That is all they do. If you buy a bootleg DVD through Amazon, the item is sent from the seller (not Amazon), if you do not receive the item, you take that up with the seller (not Amazon).

While I understand that you're trying to resolve this, Jon has an incorrect understanding of the way that Amazon and their 'Flea Market' Amazon Marketplace works. Amazon does not have this merchandise in their physical custody. The merchandise that you buy from Amazon will have a "Buy New" indicator listed on the very first line of the deal.

If the item isn't sold by Amazon but rather by a seller or by another retailer, it will list the retailer's name. The item is not send from Amazon because Amazon does not sell it. Because, if this were true, then Amazon would be getting sued by the MPAA for selling bootleg merchandise.

As it stands, if you ordered and bought a DVD from Amazon and it turned out to be bootleg, then it did not come from Amazon and that you ordered and bought it from a seller or another retailer who sold it on Amazon.

What I'm saying is that Jon is confusing two different aspects of Amazon. Trust me, those items sold by sellers do not have Amazon's logo or packaging information stuck to the mailing package. It will have the seller's address information.

I have ordered merchandise from sellers before and not a single DVD I bought from a seller had Amazon's logo on the mailer/packaging of the item.

Re: Is a show Public Domain?

As far as Jon's statement:

There is one company (whose name I won't mention that specializes in 80's films) that has hundreds of titles on Amazon, all bootlegs, yet Amazon lists them as if they are real releases. And not through third party, they are shipped and sold from Amazon.

Trust me, while this may be true, I can assure you that the seller, most likely, does not list his product as "bootleg." Because Amazon would take that down immediately.

And, I reiterate, if you know these are bootleg, then you should report it to Amazon. As I said before, Amazon does not sell this merchandise, the sellers do.

As long as consumers to Amazon.com don't repoprt these sellers, then they keep trafficking their bootlegged merchandise.

Re: Is a show Public Domain?

Mark,

I am well aware of how Amazon works, and the items ARE sold through Amazon. Not the Marketplace. Not a third party seller. They are sold by the company with the "Ships from and sold by Amazon.com" listing. If you order a book or other DVD, the item will ship together.

Like this one:

Amazon.com: Attack of the 80s: Artist Not Provided: Movies & TV

That is a bootleg collection of trailers, complete with using footage from STAR WARS for the menus. It has been on Amazon for over a year. Netflix even has it. Yet, they don't have the rights to any of the footage.

That same company released 1982's STAR STRUCK in a terrible transfer that was taken down after it was officially released by another company. You can see it now up there as only being available from 3rd party sellers. But before the official release came out, it was available to buy directly from Amazon.

They also released Sam Fuller's WHITE DOG, which was taken down (but you can find links on Amazon) when Criterion announced their version.

Read over in the movies section, it has been discussed before.

Again, Amazon doesn't know about these films, and wouldn't knowingly allow them. But they sell them.

Re: Is a show Public Domain?

No bootlegger lists their products as bootlegs.

It happens frequently on Amazon. They don't have a legal department that checks over every title submitted to them to ensure no bootlegs slip through. When I was working on the classic He-Man sets we dealt with it all the time. Amazon having listings for the "Complete Series" that were sold by/shipped by Amazon. They took them down when we called it to their attention.

A lot of the companies appear legit. There is one infamous distributor of Martial Arts films that has been getting their titles into Amazon, Suncoast and Best Buy for years. Musicland used to carry everything they put out.

Re: Is a show Public Domain?

David, and that's all I was trying to say. Someone made the statement that Amazon sells bootleg TV shows, some shows that may either be in the public domain or not available for purchase.

I'm just saying that some members have the wrong impression about Amazon and, in this instance, got Amazon Marketplace confused with "Amazon" the retailer.

Do sellers sell merchandise or media that isn't licensed? I'm sure they do, but, at least make the effort and differentiate. I'm not trying to criticize anyone here but, at least make an effort to get the understanding of this retailer right.

Amazon.com runs a service called Amazon Marketplace. While the merchandise that is sold by other people meaning "sellers" or "other independent retailers" the eonly thing that Amazon has to do with those sales is that they process the financial transaction. Amazon simply acts as a payment processor for Amazon Marketplace.

I should know, I've actually ordered items from legitimate sellers on Amazon Marketplace. After doing some quick research, you can discover who these sellers are.

I just didn't like the idea that someone thinks that Amazon is selling these bootleg titles through Amazon Marketplace by sellers. and I thought it was important that this was clarified.

In addition, when you buy an item from an Amazon Marketplace seller, even though its listed on Amazon.com, Amazon doesn't have ability to verify each item that is sold by each seller. That payment is then directed into that sellers Amazon account by which that seller can transfer that payment directly to his or her bank account. The selling is similar to eBay. A simple look at a seller's feedback shows you this much.

Re: Is a show Public Domain?

You mean the one tha puts out DVDs with piss poor quality,beat up prints, laughable extras,misleading packaging and overall crummy content?

Re: Is a show Public Domain?

You're still wrong on this one Mark. We all know what Amazon Marketplace is, and that isn't it. I buy stuff from Marketplace on a regular basis, and I buy stuff directly from Amazon even more frequently. I know the difference.

Amazon has been known to sell products (DIRECTLY THROUGH AMAZON) that are bootlegs. They just have. They are NOT marketplace, they are sold BY and shipped FROM Amazon, and you'll get free shipping on them if you are a PRIME member. Its not intentional, and they pull them when they are told, but it happens. It does.

I've dealt with it from a studio perspective when they were selling bootleg TV shows and movies of properties that we had the license to. And I'm going to say it one more time, these were products SOLD and SHIPPED by Amazon. Not Marketplace. We talked to Amazon about it, and they apologized because they didn't realize they were dealing with bootleggers. They have millions of products they sell, they don't have the resources to vet every item that crosses their path.

Not only that but sometimes bootleggers don't even know they are bootlegging. Its not uncommon for a totally legitimate independent studio to be licensed something and then it turns out the person licensing it didn't actually have the rights. Its usually solved by a simple "cease & desist" letter. Its very common and almost never results in a lawsuit - unless said company does not cease selling immediately.

It doesn't happen as often at Brick & Mortar stores, but it does happen. There were a number of legitimate Martial Arts titles that were not being carried by Musicland because they got them cheaper through a company that was bootlegging them. It went on for years despite at least a half dozen distributors complaining to the buyers and upper management.

Re: Is a show Public Domain?

And I'm saying that Amazon does not receive bootleg DVD's of any titles.

If you're referring to sellers, then that is merchandise sold by sellers through Amazon Marketplace. If you're referring to DVD-r's, then that's not bootleg because those are copies that Amazon.com are authorized to sell in that format through their website.

You're making it sound like Amazon deliberately sells bootleg DVD's and that they don't know it. I work for the retailer industry and I can assure you that retailers don't accept DVD's from anyone.

DVD titles are checked in by whoever handles their media department. If it's a new release and the retailer had ordered a lot of one title, they are shipped in boxes/cases that are securely packaged shut with "Street Date" warning labels plastered around the shipping box.

IN the event of single DVD's, they are merely counted and visually inspected. Working for a large retailer, I know this from experience. I used to work for Target and I was in charge of the Electronics/Entertainment department and I can assure you that every DVD copy, every title is counted, to make sure that the proper number was received.

If a title looks suspicious, like it has been opened or has been packaged suspiciously, we were always told that they had to be reported.

Trust me, Amazon does not sell bootleg titles. If they did, then the MPAA would be suing them. I haven't heard of one instance where a complaint was filed or that Amazon was sued for selling bootleg merchandise.

If they were selling bootlegs, then that is something that should have been taken to the MPAA. It's funny that, of the hundreds and hundreds of dollars and replacement DVD sets I have ordered from Amazon that not a single one has been a bootleg title.

Re: Is a show Public Domain?

I'm not trying to argue with you but you're wrong. No one is confusing Amazon for Amazon Marketplace. Like David said earlier, When they are informed that they have a bootleg, they pull it. The bootlegs being sold there are very small titles (and not bootlegs that you find on the street of a current movie or a bootleg of a popular movie) so they slide underneath Amazon's radar unless someone informs them.

Re: Is a show Public Domain?

Exactly. No one is saying Amazon is purposely selling bootlegs, but it happens. We're talking about companies that professionally manufacture discs, often produce really nice artwork and sometimes even do really nice authoring. They even set street dates and ship to meet those dates.

They do everything right...except have the legal right to do any of it...


And that's because you are buying programs or movies that you know are out legitimately on DVD. Most of the bootlegs that turn up on Amazon are not bootlegs of things that are legally available in R1 - they are for shows that do not yet (and may never get) a release in the US.

It goes back to my main point. If you just do a little research you should be able to find out if there is a legit release of something. If there is and you go to a place like Amazon and it is listed as having the same production studio as your research turned up, you have no chance of getting a bootleg. But to just assume that its on Amazon so it must be legit is naive.

Here, have some examples. These are absolutely 100% bootlegs:

Amazon.com: Street Fighter Saga: Chiba S-Sonny Chiba Streetfighter: Movies & TV

Amazon.com: Sister Street Fighter / The Street Fighter's Last Revenge: Multi: Movies & TV

You will notice they in fact say "Ships from and sold by Amazon.com. Gift-wrap available."

Here is an example of a bootleg that has been caught. It was at one time sold by Amazon, they are aware of it now and you will notice that there is no way to buy it now - not from Amazon, no links to Marketplace. Nothing. Its just a dead placeholder now that will eventually be purged from the system:

Amazon.com: Visionaries DVD Boxset - Complete Series (2 Disc): Susan Blu, Peter Cullen: Movies & TV

Re: Is a show Public Domain?

I went to that Visionaries link and saw an amazon link to a M.A.S.K. set, but that's a bootleg too. I wish there was a real release for that series. I was a bigger fan of that than even Transformers, and I had most of toys till my little brother trashed them all.

Re: Is a show Public Domain?

Ok, I guess I understand what is going on. Mark has a different understanding of what a bootleg is.

Mark - David and I and others aren't referring to bootleg versions of studio product. Amazon does not deal in that.

We are referring to unauthorized versions of titles owned by studios that have never been released. Those are the bootlegs that Amazon sells. No studio has released it, so a third party releases it without having the rights to. Amazon does carry these.

Sorry for the confusion.

Re: Is a show Public Domain?

Right. Which is what the OP's original question was all about. He wasn't worried about buying an honest release and getting a bootleg, he wanted to know if a show actually had a legitimate release in the first place.

Re: Is a show Public Domain?

In the sound recordings environment, there is also a difference between a 'bootleg,' a 'counterfeit,' and a 'pirate.' I don't know if the three terms apply to formats other than sound recordings, but in the aural medium, the term 'bootleg' is often used as a wastebasket term for all three categories.

This is similar to how the term 'classical' is often used to describe and/or categorize some older musics even though the musics being referenced may have been written in the 16th (= renaissance), 17th (= early and middle baroque), or 19th (= romantic) centuries. It is all 'classical' depending on the audience listening to and experiencing it, although those who know and study the historical periods know the difference and are usually careful to qualify.

If anyone wants to research the difference between the three terms, a fun starting point might be C. Reinhart, You Can't Do That! Beatles Bootlegs & Novelty Records, 1963-80. (Rock & Roll Reference Series, 5). Ann Arbor, MI: Pierian Press, 1981. xxvii, 411 p. : ill., ports. ; 24 cm. Discography. LCCN: 80-83515. AU@000002056056. ISBN: 0876501285. ISBN: 9780876501283. NZ1 2574491. Accession no. (OCLC): 7596497. WorldCat entry: 19810629.

Reinhart does an excellent job in describing the difference between a bootleg, counterfeit, and pirated album.

Re: Is a show Public Domain?

Any site that allows third party sellers is subject to distributing unauthorized product, including Amazon. Even listings on Amazon that appear to be legit (ie sold by Amazon) could be bootleg product, since Amazon allows third party sellers to do product fulfillment through them. I've seen plenty of bootleg product on Amazon - it may not stay there forever, but it does show up.

If you can only find one source for a given product, chances are it isn't legit.

Re: Is a show Public Domain?

I think we should stop saying "bootleg" and start saying "unauthorized." Because "unauthorized" is, I think, what the OP really wanted to talk about.

Re: Is a show Public Domain?

At any rate, Regulus is right. If a show is in the public domain, then that means that any company can produce a copy of that show and mass produce it for sale. Public domain titles aren't bootleg or pirated versions of that release.

Re: Is a show Public Domain?

Not only that, you or me could just as easily produce own own copies to sell. Just get a 8mm, 16mm, or even 35mm film of a PD movie or TV episode and dupe to disc, and you too, can sell it legally. Like publishers putting out new editions of the Bible, Shakespeare, Edgar Allen Poe, et cetera.

Re: Is a show Public Domain?

Chiming in to add nothing more than to say this is interesting stuff.


Btw, will they ever work out the rights to the film The Stepfather? I have a tape and a DVD of the lesser sequel but I want the original, by God!

Re: Is a show Public Domain?

Well, a remake is coming out, so dont be surprised if the issue is cleared up soon!

Re: Is a show Public Domain?

Charles, I was hoping that would happen. I'd like to find the ones responsible for keeping this off the market and show them a house.

Re: Is a show Public Domain?

That is a double negative and means that Amazon does sell this stuff. A double negative in the English language is a positive. If you had left off the "not" after "doesn't" it would be gramatically correct.

Funny that you mention it, I only spotted this now, indeed "doesn't not sell it" means it does sell it. A minor distraction.

http://www.fangoria.com/home/news/16-dvd-a-blu-ray/3073-at-last-original-stepfather-coming-to-dvd.html

Hi Regulus! I know I'm getting into the discussion late and I will blame that on the fact that I just found this wonderful Forum late last night.

Here's where I go, but beware of how reliable it actually is. It does help in searches though:

http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?DB=local&PAGE=First

It's a link to the Copyright Office website. I went there in search of finding out any info regarding THE TEXAN, starring Rory Calhoun. Without going back and checking it again, I think some company renewed the copyright to the show in the mid to late 1970's.

I hope this may help in your search!


Edited by Kronosis - 7/2/2009 at 11:52 pm GMT

David,

Thanks for helping out Regulus and Welcome to the HTF world!  You'll find that this is an awesome place of information and a well-moderated Bd.

- Jeff W.

Hi Jeff! It was my understanding that, shows in the public domain, no matter who releases them, are still in the Public Domain. Let's take the 16 or 17 episodes of The Andy Griffith Show, as an example. You know as well as I that these episodes have been released by several companies (sometimes they try to fool you in thinking they are different episodes, but they're not). And the first thing you notice when you pop in the disc and start watching an episode is that the beginning music is different. That's because the Theme Song To The Andy Griffith Show is still copyrighted and cannot be used. Whatever musical beginning and ending that's used is copyrighted, but the actual shows themselves are in the PD.
I stuck in a Platinum Corp. Annie Oakley disc the other day and noticed it had copyright protection. Does that mean the menus are copyrighted by Platinum, or the entire shows are? I see these same episodes popping up on other western compilations.

And then, I start wondering about shows like The Whirybirds and Sea Hunt and The Texan and I wonder if they are now in the PD. Speaking of Sea Hunt, I just noticed a few weeks back that on their YouTube website, MGM has started offering Sea Hunt episodes for viewing, so I guess that MGM owns the majority of these shows as well. I always wondered about Sea Hunt being in the PD. Up until the last season or there abouts, it was always a ZIV Production. Then, all of a sudden, United Artists/ZIV started showing up in their closing credits.
Edited by Kronosis - 7/2/2009 at 07:43 pm GMT

Hey Regulus! Nice to meet you, and I'm glad I could help out!

Hey Jeff! Nice to meet you too, and thanks for the welcome! (btw, I'm a HUGE Combat! fan, too!!! )