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Camelot editing question for experts

post #1 of 27
6/12/09 at 8:05am
Thread Starter 
In the "Guenevere" sequence, after the verdict of her trial is announced, did the movie always skip the chorus and verse on the LP and CD, "As the dawn filled the sky on the day she would die..." and "I'll wager the King himself is hoping he will return..." and go straight to the assembling crowd singing "Guenevere, Guenevere, Lance will save Guenevere..."?
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post #2 of 27
6/12/09 at 10:20am

Re: Camelot editing question for experts

Yes, that was part of a whole bunch of edits made to the film, before it premiered.
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post #3 of 27
6/13/09 at 1:01pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Camelot editing question for experts

Joe -- I was hoping you'd reply! A search for "what's the matter with the Camelot dvd sound?" led me, finally, to your informed, detailed, explanatory post on this site. Reading more of your posts I was further impressed by your breadth of knowledge of so many movies including some of my other favorites. (They shot but then cut "Long Ago"?!) Thanks for sharing all your insights, and for answering the above. Ned
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post #4 of 27
6/13/09 at 5:08pm

Re: Camelot editing question for experts

Hiya, Ned !!
There was a bunch of other things shot for the film and cut BEFORE the premiere.

There was a montage of Arthur fighting and conquering all England ot make it one.

There was a montage of Lancelot on a quest to fight other knights and giants, before he considers himself worth to be a knight of the Round table. Some photos of this ended up in the souvenir book.

None of these scenes got as far as Alfred Newman actually scoring them. \

I was at Teh Warner studios when alfred Newman was recording the underscore for all of act One. (the film was actually shot in order).
I was also on the pink forest set whenre king arthur sings camelot and Guenevere sings the simple Joys of Maidenhood.
I was on the camelot throne room set while they were building it.

It is the film I have seen the mnost times in an actual movie theater - 179 times.
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post #5 of 27
6/13/09 at 8:57pm

Re: Camelot editing question for experts

Joe---

Some questions since obviously you have the inside scoop on CAMELOT:

On the dvd there is a piece about the premiere of the film and at one point either Warner or Logan refer to a previous attempt to make the film before the 1967 production. I know at one point they were even talking about Burton and Taylor for the leads. Do you know who was to be in the aborted production?

Very interesting info about the scenes that were cut. At any point did they film any songs with Hemmings.... Mordred does get a song in the stage version.

I have seen this only twice in theatres, but one of those was the 1973 re-issue which was horribly cut. I know this premiered in roadshow blown up to 70mm in many cities, but remember a reference in the Newsweek review to bad color that looked purplish. Were the 70mm prints that bad or was it just the reaction to many full face closeups?

This is a movie I enjoy despite what I feel is poor direction by Logan and some rather sloppy editing. It apparently lost a lot of money for WB. Definitely needs a much better dvd transfer on all levels and wouldn't it be great to see the deleted scenes.... what are the odds of that?

Thanks!
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post #6 of 27
6/14/09 at 5:32am

Re: Camelot editing question for experts

the cut scenes no longer exist.

There were no other songs recorded that were not filmed.

Never heard of an earlier attempt to film. I highly doubt it. and certainly not with Liz who can't sing.
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post #7 of 27
6/14/09 at 8:30am

Re: Camelot editing question for experts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Caps

Never heard of an earlier attempt to film. I highly doubt it. and certainly not with Liz who can't sing.

Didn't stop her from trying in A LITTLE NIGHT MUSIC.
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post #8 of 27
6/14/09 at 9:00am

Re: Camelot editing question for experts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Caps
Never heard of an earlier attempt to film. I highly doubt it. and certainly not with Liz who can't sing.

Like Vanessa Redgrave can?

It's so odd that between the time CAMELOT opened on Broadway in 1960 and the movie was made, Richard Burton and Julie Andrews became just about the biggest movie stars in the world -- and they didn't use them in the movie.

It can't be because their price was too high, because they wasted a ton of money on this movie, anyway.
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post #9 of 27
6/14/09 at 9:06am
Thread Starter 

Re: Camelot editing question for experts

Joe Caps -- Amazing! I had no idea your information was that first hand! Thanks again for your post regarding the sound history. It cured the knot in my stomach caused by hearing things were badly awry and then fearing no one knew. Amazon's customer reviews, which are often informative, are all just "I like the play better" "I like the movie better," and it took a lot of searching for me to find your definitive post. I hope there will be a "restored back" version soon. I read you said they won't do it because it would be admitting the other was wrong but, without getting political, once we know wrong was done, don't we have to rectify it?
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post #10 of 27
6/14/09 at 10:17am

Re: Camelot editing question for experts

The sound on the current dvd is wretched and has SO MANY mistakes.
Typical Warner Home Vid hubris.

The picture looks great.
BTW- the 70mm prints were gorgeous as were the 35mm.

The film cost around 17 mil and took in 70 mil just in the US so it hardly lost money for the company.

I love when people moan and complain and say the liked the play better than the film. How many of these folks actually saw the play.
I did !!
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post #11 of 27
6/14/09 at 11:49am

Re: Camelot editing question for experts

Joe,

Your enthusiasm for this film always makes me smile. Is it me or has classic film releases slowed down considerably from Warner? I continue to have hope they will re-release this classic again with the ORIGINAL soundtrack. Let them spend countless dollars remixing if they feel it is required, but please at least include the original sound.
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post #12 of 27
6/14/09 at 4:36pm

Re: Camelot editing question for experts

This film does NOT need to be remixed.

This film is NOT a true six track but blown up from a four track original.

This track was only used ONCE for home vid, - on the original pan and scan laservideodisc.
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post #13 of 27
6/14/09 at 6:31pm

Re: Camelot editing question for experts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Caps
This track was only used ONCE for home vid, - on the original pan and scan laservideodisc.

Well, in that case, I'm glad I have that Laser in my collection.
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post #14 of 27
6/14/09 at 7:15pm

Re: Camelot editing question for experts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lugoff
Like Vanessa Redgrave can?

It's so odd that between the time CAMELOT opened on Broadway in 1960 and the movie was made, Richard Burton and Julie Andrews became just about the biggest movie stars in the world -- and they didn't use them in the movie.

It can't be because their price was too high, because they wasted a ton of money on this movie, anyway.


At the time, Burton was only interested in making films with his wife (liz Taylor) and passed on the film of "Camelot" though Warner wanted him. Julie Andrews was also offered the role (after "the My Fair Lady"/"Mary Poppins" race at the box office and Oscars) Julie was the top musical star at the time, but without Burton she didn't see any reason to do it. (And I would think she may have felt since Warner didn't cast her in MFL he couldn't have her for Camelot)

Redgrave was convinced by her agent she should do the film because it was going to be an important one that year and when asked about Julie Andrews doing it she would reply Julie's the top money maker in Hollywood and "If Julie wanted to do it, she'd be doing it" .

Harris (who was working with Julie Andrews on "Hawaii" at the time (and really wanted the role) didn't get along with Julie and only let Warner know of his interest after Julie passed on the film.

The DVD looks great but the sound/dialog is out of sync esp when Arthur and Lancelot first meet
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post #15 of 27
6/15/09 at 4:14am

Re: Camelot editing question for experts

gR3eg, i hate to disagree with you here, but I must.
I have been through all of the production files for Camelot on deposit at USC and there is nothing about offers to Burton or Andrews to make the film.

Further, in Josh logans autobiobraphy, he specifically says Andrews was NOT offered the part because Josh didn't want her.
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post #16 of 27
6/15/09 at 10:09am

Re: Camelot editing question for experts

you may be right - I know Logan did not want Julie Andrews. I don't think they ever offically offered the roles to them, but may be when approached they expressed their lack of interest so it went no further, this also may have been way before Josh Logan was attached to direct.
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post #17 of 27
6/15/09 at 2:09pm

Re: Camelot editing question for experts

So Josh Logan didn't want Julie Andrews, but was fine with Vanessa Redgrave? That would be amazing.

It would have been so nice if a movie version with the Broadway cast had been filmed, and by a good director. Burton, Andrews, and Goulet are so much better than the movie actors who ended up doing it (IMO). It's also a real shame that no film exists of the original Broadway production. The kinescope recordings of some musical numbers done on the Ed Sullivan TV show (see youtube) gives a glimpse.
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post #18 of 27
6/15/09 at 4:46pm

Re: Camelot editing question for experts

Josh Logan said "I can't see anyone going to war over Julie Andrews"

Vanessa got the job after someone saw her in "Morgan" and told Logan she would be perfect - and she was very good
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post #19 of 27
6/15/09 at 9:03pm

Re: Camelot editing question for experts

I'm of the opinion that Redgrave and Harris were very well cast in their roles. The chemistry is palpable.
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post #20 of 27
6/16/09 at 4:01am

Re: Camelot editing question for experts

Logan wanted a sexier, earthier Guenevere than Andrews could provide.
I saw the original broadway cast and Andrews played it as if she was still doing Cinderella.
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post #21 of 27
6/16/09 at 8:29am

Re: Camelot editing question for experts

To me, a musical, even a movie adaptation of one, is all about the singing and the diction, and the quality of the voices. For me, Julie Andrews trounces all others on that point. And Richard Harris is good, but certainly no Richard Burton.
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post #22 of 27
6/16/09 at 9:39am

Re: Camelot editing question for experts

I've heard the live recording of Burton's final performance in CAMELOT, and the way he and Andrews and Goulet delivered the lines and songs was vastly superior to anything in the movie. Andrews got big laughs on many lines that Redgrave didn't. The audience seemed to love her. (Of course, it might be the difference between being directed by Moss Hart and Joshua Logan.)
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post #23 of 27
6/16/09 at 11:57am

Re: Camelot editing question for experts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lugoff
I've heard the live recording of Burton's final performance in CAMELOT, and the way he and Andrews and Goulet delivered the lines and songs was vastly superior to anything in the movie. Andrews got big laughs on many lines that Redgrave didn't. The audience seemed to love her. (Of course, it might be the difference between being directed by Moss Hart and Joshua Logan.)


The original Broadway production of "Camelot" was not the hit people believe it to be. Much was cut after the show opened and reviews were mixed. It was the appearance of Andrews and Burton on the Ed Sullivan show that generated a bump in the box office, and the fact that President Kennedy was said to listen to the cast album. The run of "camelot" wasn't as long as other classics. The film promised to correct the msitakes but also failed. According to Burton's bio Josha Logan wanted him for the film but he didn't want to do it. This is the show during which director Moss Hart died
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post #24 of 27
6/16/09 at 6:33pm

Re: Camelot editing question for experts

For better or worse, due to spending way too much time looking through old copies of Variety and The New York Times, I know that some of the "reference books" don't get things exactly right.

The reviews for CAMELOT were mixed, but the show was a sellout from the beginning with the biggest advance sale in history. However, the advance sale was dwindling until Burton and Andrews went on "The Ed Sullivan Show" about three months into the run.

No one knew President Kennedy liked the cast album until his widow revealed it after his death -- and by then CAMELOT had been closed on Broadway for almost a year (it was still on tour, though).

It's certainly true that CAMELOT didn't run as long as MY FAIR LADY or THE SOUND OF MUSIC -- but it ran longer than WEST SIDE STORY and GYPSY, to name two classics of the era. It was the longest running show of everything that opened in 1960, and you can't do better than be #1.

Moss Hart had a heart attack during the show's tryout, and died about a year later.
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post #25 of 27
6/16/09 at 8:21pm

Re: Camelot editing question for experts

Quote:
Posted by Joe Lugoff: I've heard the live recording of Burton's final performance in CAMELOT, and the way he and Andrews and Goulet delivered the lines and songs was vastly superior to anything in the movie. Andrews got big laughs on many lines that Redgrave didn't. The audience seemed to love her. (Of course, it might be the difference between being directed by Moss Hart and Joshua Logan.)

That's basically why I have never cared for the film. The play is very light and airy (almost silly, really), and the film tried to be dark and serious. There's nothing wrong with doing a darker version of the Arthurian legends (see Excalibur), but the original play and music of Camelot simply does not lend itself to such a treatment, IMO.

If Logan thought "no one would go to war over Julie Andrews" it shows that he took the story too seriously and was the wrong choice to make a film of it. Julie Andrews was stiffed on the casting of My Fair Lady as well, but that film is at least faithful to the Broadway conception. It was stagy, what with being shot on soundstages, but it was an adaptation of a stage play after all. A person who missed My Fair Lady on stage had a good idea what it was like from the movie.

I, too wish some sort of film of Camelot had been made with the original cast. I have always loved listening to the original cast album and far prefer it to watching the film.
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post #26 of 27
6/27/09 at 3:50pm

Re: Camelot editing question for experts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Caps
Logan wanted a sexier, earthier Guenevere than Andrews could provide.
I saw the original broadway cast and Andrews played it as if she was still doing Cinderella.


Two points here, Joe:

Frederick Loewe WROTE the role of Guinevere for Julie Andrews. She was who he envisioned, and it was her voice he heard in his head when the songs were written. As beautiful as Vanessa Redgrave is to look at, her singing voice was PAINFULLY constructed from many, many takes by Ken Darby to attain what we hear on the soundtrack. Julie Andrews IS the definitive Guinevere for the PLAY.

The movie was a "reimagining" of the play using the play's structure but attempting to change the tone and direction of the story. I got that from an interview with Alan Jay Lerner, possibly in the Life issue with the movie on the cover.

My other point is this: How old could have been when you saw "Camelot" on Broadway....10...11...or 12? I ask since I've read in here at HTF that you recently celebrated your 58th birthday. How critical can a 12-year-old be about the singing by a celebrated actress in a role she originated and which was written for her?

Can his evalution be more "hindsight" than an original impression?
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post #27 of 27
6/28/09 at 5:08am

Re: Camelot editing question for experts

Ron, I saw the show when it opened in 1960 (I was nine years old) and saw it again Christmas 1962 just before Andrews left to film Mary Poppins.

The Problem with the entire original show is that it was mostly very cutesy.
Lerner realized the cutsiness of act One did not prepare for the darkness of act Two.
With this in mind he rewrote the script for the film. The film starts the morning before the big battle with Lancelot and the film becomes a flashback, thus preparing the audience for the unpleasnat things later in the film.
All of this is in Alan Jay Lerners notes on deposit with the production records at USC.
Alan also had some say about the casting and could veto anyone he thought was wrong for the film.

The end result was to change a musical comedy into musical drama.
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