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A few words about...™ Air Force One -- in Blu-ray

post #1 of 37
6/2/09 at 7:37pm
Thread Starter 
Columbia (Sony) seems positioned with people in place, and whatever lag times necessarily now past, to be turning out what to my eye is a continuum of quality Blu-ray catalog titles.

I'm told that their latest strategy is to harvest all images, whether they be from original negatives, fine grain master, or interpositives at 4k, and then down-rez from there to a final HD master. This is a more expensive way to proceed, but from what I'm seeing, it pays off in spades.

After spending some quality time this evening with Glory, I shared an hour or so with Air Force One, which although a totally different type of film from a visual sense, is just as high in the quality factor as the slightly more rough-hewn Glory.

Grain appears normal and resolution is as it should be. Whether some of the other studios are still dealing occasionally dealing with older masters, which may be the case, or not, Sony is out there strutting their stuff, placing beautiful images on screen via their Blu-ray system.

In the most general sense, the bar appears to have been raised, and I couldn't be more pleased.

As an aside, Air Force One is one of those productions that cries out to be viewed theatrically on a large screen -- I'm referring to fifty feet or more -- but still works readily as a Blu-ray, for which this is one of those cases where bigger is better, and the quality of this disc holds up perfectly.

Highly Recommended.

RAH
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Gear mentioned in this thread:

Air Force One [Blu-ray]
post #2 of 37
6/2/09 at 10:04pm

re: A few words about...™ Air Force One -- in Blu-ray

Thanks!
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post #3 of 37
6/3/09 at 5:28am

re: A few words about...™ Air Force One -- in Blu-ray

Hang on, according to some other reviews I've read, the Russian/English captions are PLAYER-GENERATED and positioned BELOW the film image.

This is not how Air Force One was shows in cinemas.

If this is to be a new Sony trend, then consider me extremely concerned.

I won't be upgrading from the DVD unless somebody can confirm that the Region B version is any different...?
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post #4 of 37
6/3/09 at 6:57am

Re: A few words about...™ Air Force One

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamilton72
Hang on, according to some other reviews I've read, the Russian/English captions are PLAYER-GENERATED and positioned BELOW the film image.

And this is accurate...
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post #5 of 37
6/3/09 at 11:50am

re: A few words about...™ Air Force One -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin Jacobson
And this is accurate...

I gather the captions are burned-in on the UK release. Looks like I'll be picking that one up instead.
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post #6 of 37
6/4/09 at 10:14pm

re: A few words about...™ Air Force One -- in Blu-ray

I just finished watching this and the subtitle problem is worse than reported. Due to some kind of error the "forced" English/Russian subtitles do not work unless the English subtitles are engaged. So it's all or nothing. This should be recalled or at the very least replaced.
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post #7 of 37
6/5/09 at 5:08am
Thread Starter 

re: A few words about...™ Air Force One -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Carpenter
I just finished watching this and the subtitle problem is worse than reported. Due to some kind of error the "forced" English/Russian subtitles do not work unless the English subtitles are engaged. So it's all or nothing. This should be recalled or at the very least replaced.

If a problem exists, it is player dependent, as it worked perfectly on a Denon.
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post #8 of 37
6/5/09 at 7:26am

re: A few words about...™ Air Force One -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
If a problem exists, it is player dependent, as it worked perfectly on a Denon.

Apparently there is a fault on some copies. Sony has set up a recall/replacement program. Details over at blu-ray.com

Alas, even the fixed copies have the subs in the wrong place, so...
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post #9 of 37
6/5/09 at 3:39pm

re: A few words about...™ Air Force One -- in Blu-ray

Will check out the UK edition.
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post #10 of 37
6/6/09 at 8:34am

re: A few words about...™ Air Force One -- in Blu-ray

Robert, Please do NOT recommend movies with the subtitles in the black bars!

This is not how they were shown in the theater and for those of us with 2.40:1 screens, they require a significant compromise.

If your goal is trying to identify HD that looks as close as possible to the original theatrical showing, the position of the subtitles alone should disqualify this and several other titles you have recommended.

It really doesn't matter how good it might look on a larger screen, because I suspect those of us who have the largest screens in our HT's have large 2.40:1 screens. So the second line of the subtitles is not readable which means we have to reduce our image size and shift the image up to read the subtitles. Certainly not the theatrical experience we try so hard to replicate....

Vern
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post #11 of 37
6/6/09 at 9:24am
Thread Starter 

re: A few words about...™ Air Force One -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vern Dias
Robert, Please do NOT recommend movies with the subtitles in the black bars!

This is not how they were shown in the theater and for those of us with 2.40:1 screens, they require a significant compromise.

If your goal is trying to identify HD that looks as close as possible to the original theatrical showing, the position of the subtitles alone should disqualify this and several other titles you have recommended.

It really doesn't matter how good it might look on a larger screen, because I suspect those of us who have the largest screens in our HT's have large 2.40:1 screens. So the second line of the subtitles is not readable which means we have to reduce our image size and shift the image up to read the subtitles. Certainly not the theatrical experience we try so hard to replicate....

Vern

Since titles are generated and not a part of the image, the situation might possibly be resolved in the future via a selection of image area for subs -- which might in turn involve a firmware or player model upgrade. As for recommending or not based upon title positioning, it can certainly be noted that titles fall below the image area. However, for the relatively small audience affected, I would not go so far as to hold back a recommendation.

The position situation is worth looking into.

RAH
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post #12 of 37
6/6/09 at 9:40am

re: A few words about...™ Air Force One -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
However, for the relatively small audience affected, I would not go so far as to hold back a recommendation.

Surely everybody is affected. Even if you have a regular 16x9 screen this kind of presentation does not represent the movie as it was shown in the theatre, it doesn't matter how glorious the PQ/AQ is!

Just because it's not important to some people doesn't change the facts.

This disc should carry one of those "this movie has been modified from its original theatrical presentation" messages at the start!
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post #13 of 37
6/6/09 at 10:22am

re: A few words about...™ Air Force One -- in Blu-ray

I am with Robert on this one. Where sub titles are is way way way down on the list on whether a title should be recommended or not.
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post #14 of 37
6/6/09 at 10:28am

re: A few words about...™ Air Force One -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankT
I am with Robert on this one. Where sub titles are is way way way down on the list on whether a title should be recommended or not.

Well EE is way way down on my list, but that doesn't make EE a good thing!
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post #15 of 37
6/6/09 at 10:29am

re: A few words about...™ Air Force One -- in Blu-ray

Okay I just checked out the UK edition. URGH. Although the subtitles are in the right place, they're still player-generated unfortunately.

So the only way to see this movie properly is DVD. Great.
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post #16 of 37
6/6/09 at 11:10am

re: A few words about...™ Air Force One -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankT
I am with Robert on this one. Where sub titles are is way way way down on the list on whether a title should be recommended or not.

That depends upon the type of setup you have. For those of those of us who use lenses for constant heighth consider it way way UP on the list

But here's another thing to consider: Even with the subs designed to be placed below the image area they are never exclusively below the image anyway. Depending upon how much dialogue is being spoken at the time many of the subs spill into the image above. I find this even more annoying and un-cinema like.

This problem could easily be rectified though I feel. Either by designing the disc itself to simply move subs up or down via the remote or a menu/subtitle option. If my old Brotherhood of the Wolf HD DVD can do it then surely Blu Ray can too. Or perhaps a hardware firmware upgrade.
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post #17 of 37
6/6/09 at 12:59pm

re: A few words about...™ Air Force One -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan M
This problem could easily be rectified though I feel. Either by designing the disc itself to simply move subs up or down via the remote or a menu/subtitle option.

Or just by leaving them as they're supposed to be!

Leaving placement aside, keeping the theatical subs gives a movie far more of a stylish and, let's face it, accurate look than anything a player could generate.
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post #18 of 37
6/6/09 at 2:11pm

re: A few words about...™ Air Force One -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamilton72
Or just by leaving them as they're supposed to be!

Leaving placement aside, keeping the theatical subs gives a movie far more of a stylish and, let's face it, accurate look than anything a player could generate.
Not true, and completely disregards the much larger segment of viewers who may want or need multi-language options for that of the constant-height or zero-deviation purist viewers.
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post #19 of 37
6/6/09 at 3:46pm
Thread Starter 

re: A few words about...™ Air Force One -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamilton72
Or just by leaving them as they're supposed to be!

Leaving placement aside, keeping the theatical subs gives a movie far more of a stylish and, let's face it, accurate look than anything a player could generate.

If one looks at this logically and in a detailed manner, it becomes apparent that digital titles are generally not the same as those which appeared on theatrical film prints. I'm aware of very few instances in which the original hi-con titles were scanned or harvested for image to replicate the original film. At that point the concept of originality flies out the window.
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post #20 of 37
6/6/09 at 4:53pm

re: A few words about...™ Air Force One -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Blacklow
Not true, and completely disregards the much larger segment of viewers who may want or need multi-language options for that of the constant-height or zero-deviation purist viewers.

But you could argue that film credits themselves should be in multiple languages and AFAIK such an option has never been provided.

As for being a purist - yup! And proud of it!
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post #21 of 37
6/6/09 at 5:00pm

re: A few words about...™ Air Force One -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
If one looks at this logically and in a detailed manner, it becomes apparent that digital titles are generally not the same as those which appeared on theatrical film prints. I'm aware of very few instances in which the original hi-con titles were scanned or harvested for image to replicate the original film. At that point the concept of originality flies out the window.

So looking at distinctive captions on, let's say, the two X-Files movies, are you saying that those were re-done between film and video? And if so, by whom? If it's the studio (or the company who created the letters in the first place) why can't THEY be tasked with providing the multi-language versions?

I wouldn't mind so much if some effort was made to replicate the theatrical size, placement, font, colour and shadow (where appropriate) - but these Sony titles couldn't be MORE inappropriate if they tried!
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post #22 of 37
6/6/09 at 5:23pm

re: A few words about...™ Air Force One -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamilton72
But you could argue that film credits themselves should be in multiple languages and AFAIK such an option has never been provided.
The credit text isn't part of the story, so no, you couldn't argue it.
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As for being a purist - yup! And proud of it!
Purist is okay. Proud of it to the detriment of a very large segment of the viewership is not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamilton72
So looking at distinctive captions on, let's say, the two X-Files movies, are you saying that those were re-done between film and video? And if so, by whom? If it's the studio (or the company who created the letters in the first place) why can't THEY be tasked with providing the multi-language versions?
Not sure what you're saying here. Aside from the positioning, this is a one-man issue. The idea of asking the studios to go to no small effort and money to create separate subtitled prints for every language instead of taking advantage of a simple technical fix that any user can implement all to satisfy even 10% of the viewers, let alone one person, is mind-boggling.
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I wouldn't mind so much if some effort was made to replicate the theatrical size, placement, font, colour and shadow (where appropriate) - but these Sony titles couldn't be MORE inappropriate if they tried!
So you're saying you have a perfect memory of the theatrical subtitles and that there is not a single factor that Sony got right? That's just being ridiculous. In fact, the only thing anyone without a 35mm print could be sure of is the placement. What evidence do you have that every single thing with the subtitles is wrong?

There's nitpicking, and then there's obsessing one's singular passion to the point of hyperbole and invention. This has rapidly become the latter.
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post #23 of 37
6/6/09 at 5:38pm

re: A few words about...™ Air Force One -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Blacklow
There's nitpicking, and then there's obsessing one's singular passion to the point of hyperbole and invention. This has rapidly become the latter.

Well firstly it's starting to speak volumes that you're having a go at ME whilst I'm focusing solely on the presentation of the MOVIE...

But that aside... what's this obsession with me being in the minority. Let's do a poll. Given the choice, who would prefer the captions to be INSIDE the frame and who would prefer them OUTSIDE? "Don't mind" is not an option. I'd be curious to know the results.
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post #24 of 37
6/6/09 at 5:41pm

re: A few words about...™ Air Force One -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Blacklow
Purist is okay. Proud of it to the detriment of a very large segment of the viewership is not.


I wonder how this "very large segment" coped in the days of VHS and laserdisc!
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post #25 of 37
6/6/09 at 6:06pm

re: A few words about...™ Air Force One -- in Blu-ray

For my two cents - Unless the subtitles are an integral part of the film or presented in line with a directors vision (Night/Day watch for example) - I am not sure many would notice a change in subtitles. I can understand disappointment if you notice a difference, but the language being used, at Sony in particular here, is not generating any sympathy or real support from me.

And Mr. Harris - you have never steered anyone wrong with your few word's and are spot on again here... Thank you!
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post #26 of 37
6/6/09 at 6:12pm

re: A few words about...™ Air Force One -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamilton72
Well firstly it's starting to speak volumes that you're having a go at ME whilst I'm focusing solely on the presentation of the MOVIE...
A presentation that you selectively pick at. In the course of two threads, you've made it clear that you disapprove anything having to do with size, color, font, shading, and placement (and without evidence to prove all of those were changed). Of those, only the last one is a concern to anyone but you as far as I can tell. And you're willing to ignore any attempt to replicate that, even accurately(!), within the capabilities of an individual's player and personal choice. That's what speaks volumes
Quote:
But that aside... what's this obsession with me being in the minority. Let's do a poll. Given the choice, who would prefer the captions to be INSIDE the frame and who would prefer them OUTSIDE? "Don't mind" is not an option. I'd be curious to know the results.
I was speaking to the multi-language issue, not the placement. It's quite obvious because, oddly enough, my response quotes your words about language, despite you going out of your way to purposefully leave that out to make it seem otherwise. As I've mentioned multiple times, I share the concerns about the placement, but you've chosen to go to issues beyond even what the CIH folks worry about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamilton72
I wonder how this "very large segment" coped in the days of VHS and laserdisc!
The studios either went to the expenses I mentioned above for the various languages or left people to their own devices. And that wasn't fair to them. However, the fact that you feel that your singular concern overrules the regards of this demonstrably large part of the population even when presented with simple and cheap technological solutions (including the ability to address CIH concerns) is frighteningly selfish and a little bit weird.
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post #27 of 37
6/7/09 at 12:49am

re: A few words about...™ Air Force One -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Blacklow
A presentation that you selectively pick at. In the course of two threads, you've made it clear that you disapprove anything having to do with size, color, font, shading, and placement (and without evidence to prove all of those were changed). Of those, only the last one is a concern to anyone but you as far as I can tell. And you're willing to ignore any attempt to replicate that, even accurately(!), within the capabilities of an individual's player and personal choice. That's what speaks volumes

In this case all of the other changes (size, font, etc) are moot because the captions were moved. Hardly worth picking over font when they're not even in the right place. Besides I didn't say that ALL of those things were wrong with this movie. To Sony's credit I believe they did get the colour right. Good for them! LOL

Oh I'm happy for any studio to replicate theatrical subs with the player - but to date NONE of them have managed it successfully to my knowledge. SO you'll forgive me for ignoring their attempts.

And as for personal choice - yeah, cool, let folks decide how their movies look regardless of what the original presentation was like. Here's an idea: let's have a button which allows viewers to toggle between 1.85:1 and 2.35:1 so that the "majority" who hate black bars don't have to deal with them.

Besides which, if you want choice, Sony could easily incorporate the other translations into the general foreign language subtitle track and put THAT under the picture. That way the original theatrical caption is left on the picture (correct size, font, artistic integrity, etc) and the foreign language equivalent is printed underneath in the black bar. That way everyone gets what they want!

Anyway I have a train to catch!
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post #28 of 37
6/7/09 at 5:41am

re: A few words about...™ Air Force One -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vern Dias
because I suspect those of us who have the largest screens in our HT's have large 2.40:1 screens.
Of course not.
The official ratio of HD equipment happens to be 16x9, but the frame of my screen can even be opened up to 107" X 80" (which I lovingly, though strictly incorrectly, call "IMAX mode").

A 2.40x1 screen is technically speaking an erroneous choice (to me anyway). But I don't want to sidetrack this thread any further by going into an elaborate explanation and discussion.

Everyone can make choices like that for him-/herself, but IMO it goes too far to demand that parts of the official 16x9 image stay unused.


Cees
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post #29 of 37
6/7/09 at 1:57pm

Re: A few words about...™ Air Force One -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamilton72
Oh I'm happy for any studio to replicate theatrical subs with the player - but to date NONE of them have managed it successfully to my knowledge. SO you'll forgive me for ignoring their attempts.


The Godfather blu-ray release has player generated subtitles that to my eye look identical to the originals. So it can be done.

Doug
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post #30 of 37
6/8/09 at 5:26am

Re: A few words about...™ Air Force One -- in Blu-ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamilton72
In this case all of the other changes (size, font, etc) are moot because the captions were moved. Hardly worth picking over font when they're not even in the right place.
So then why do it constantly?
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Besides I didn't say that ALL of those things were wrong with this movie. To Sony's credit I believe they did get the colour right. Good for them!
I believe your exact words were "these Sony titles couldn't be MORE inappropriate if they tried". And you still have not presented any evidence of anything else.
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Oh I'm happy for any studio to replicate theatrical subs with the player - but to date NONE of them have managed it successfully to my knowledge. SO you'll forgive me for ignoring their attempts.
Again, no evidence has ever been provided that this is the case, so that makes this argument useless until then. I would be willing to bet that the majority of movies have player-generated subtitles that are reasonably close to the burned-in ones in appearance. And as others have mentioned, it has been done before, even with distinctive subtitles (and I would add Wrath of Khan to The Godfather).
Quote:
And as for personal choice - yeah, cool, let folks decide how their movies look regardless of what the original presentation was like. Here's an idea: let's have a button which allows viewers to toggle between 1.85:1 and 2.35:1 so that the "majority" who hate black bars don't have to deal with them.
Wow. I love how you have both decided what the original presentation looks like (despite it demonstrably not being so), and that your apparent ethnocentrism is the be-all-end-all. Sure, let's ignore the majority of the world who doesn't speak English well or at all. Why should they get to enjoy a movie when we can make it all about you? Especially not when we can do it with a simple button choice! Why make it so easy?
Quote:
Besides which, if you want choice, Sony could easily incorporate the other translations into the general foreign language subtitle track and put THAT under the picture. That way the original theatrical caption is left on the picture (correct size, font, artistic integrity, etc) and the foreign language equivalent is printed underneath in the black bar. That way everyone gets what they want!
Except for the many, many movies with 1.33:1 through 1.85:1 ARs; anybody who doesn't want two sets of subtitles; and not to mention the same people who you have been defending regarding placement. Do you see why your arguments against the simple cost-effective solution for millions of people in order to fulfill entirely selfish desires make little to no sense yet?
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Home Theater Forum › Home Theater Forum › Blu-ray, DVD, Streaming Video and Digital Downloads › Blu-ray › A Few Words About By Robert Harris › A few words about...™ Air Force One -- in Blu-ray