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Wireless connection nightmare

post #1 of 23
6/1/09 at 6:32pm
Thread Starter 
I've spent literally hours on the phone with support - both Apple and AT&T - and I'm no closer to solving this than I was in the beginning. My sad story:

My daughter bought a Macbook today. It did not automatically connect to the internet wirelessly. Hard wired, it works fine.

I need to figure out if the issue is with the modem (2Wire brand via ATT) or the brand new laptop. ATT will come for a service call, but they'll bill me $55 if they say it is not their issue. My other alternative, I guess, is to return the laptop for an exchange (which would, I guess, be configured identically and thus work (or not work) the same.

I have a suspicion that the problem may revolve around a network password for the modem. The default is the 10-digit 'wireless network key' printed on the modem. The error message that I receive is that I am entering the wrong password.

Here's the weird part. My other daughter has a nearly identical Macbook (though two years older) that connects nicely to the internet wirelessly. I have that configured with that very 10-digit number.

I've re-booted several times, I've unplugged and re-plugged cables. I've verified settings repeatedly, with the guidance of the support people. The last suggestion the Apple person had was to connect hard-wired, then unplug the wire and "that will allow your wireless connection to work". I know I don't even need to say that that did nothing.

I'm open to all suggestions, but I'd especially like to hear input as to why the network password is fine for one Macbook, but the other doesn't like it.

Thanks,

Jon
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post #2 of 23
6/1/09 at 6:52pm

Re: Wireless connection nightmare

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon_Are
I've spent literally hours on the phone with support - both Apple and AT&T - and I'm no closer to solving this than I was in the beginning. My sad story:

My daughter bought a Macbook today. It did not automatically connect to the internet wirelessly. Hard wired, it works fine.

I need to figure out if the issue is with the modem (2Wire brand via ATT) or the brand new laptop. ATT will come for a service call, but they'll bill me $55 if they say it is not their issue. My other alternative, I guess, is to return the laptop for an exchange (which would, I guess, be configured identically and thus work (or not work) the same.

I have a suspicion that the problem may revolve around a network password for the modem. The default is the 10-digit 'wireless network key' printed on the modem. The error message that I receive is that I am entering the wrong password.

Here's the weird part. My other daughter has a nearly identical Macbook (though two years older) that connects nicely to the internet wirelessly. I have that configured with that very 10-digit number.

I've re-booted several times, I've unplugged and re-plugged cables. I've verified settings repeatedly, with the guidance of the support people. The last suggestion the Apple person had was to connect hard-wired, then unplug the wire and "that will allow your wireless connection to work". I know I don't even need to say that that did nothing.

I'm open to all suggestions, but I'd especially like to hear input as to why the network password is fine for one Macbook, but the other doesn't like it.

Thanks,

Jon

The issue is almost certainly with your WEP [wireless equivalent privacy] credentials. The "password" your other daughter is using is probably the WEP passphrase, not the actual key, which is usually system-generated. The best way to know for certain is the log into the modem (access point) and disable all security [WEP/WPA etc] and then try again. If you are successful, (I'm betting you will be) then you know what the problem is. Now you'll need to generate another WEP key and both of your daughters will need to enter it to connect if you want to continue using WEP. There are good reasons not to. Just Google "WEP" for more info. Let me know how this works.

John
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post #3 of 23
6/1/09 at 7:41pm

Re: Wireless connection nightmare

I had some initial troubles with my brand new MBP and AirPort Extreme Base Station back in 2007. And I've had some intermittent annoyances with WiFi since then. But in general, I've found my MBP to more robust at connecting to wireless networks than Windows XP machines. I would expect a new MacBook to connect to a WEP system trivially.

Some thoughts: Take your MacBook to a Panera Bread or Apple Store or such with free wifi and see if you can connect there. Re-verify the connection settings to your wireless router; as suggested revise its password and reconnect with both machines. What about a friend's house with WiFi; does it work?

If it works everywhere but your house, it's something about the modem. If it connects nowhere, it's the MacBook.
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post #4 of 23
6/2/09 at 5:48am
Thread Starter 

Re: Wireless connection nightmare

John and Dave,

Thanks for the detailed replies.

I went into the router settings to disable my wireless internet security. Afterwards, I found that all three of my wireless computers connected immediately (one laptop Mac, one laptop PC, one desktop PC).

The new Mac? Still unable to connect.

By the way, the security in use was WPA-PSK, not WEP.

I'm going to try Dave's suggestion and take it to a WiFi spot to see what happens.

Should I return it to the Apple store?
Will they accept it in exchange for another (just bought it yesterday)?

Off to Panera for a bagel!

Thanks again,
Jon
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post #5 of 23
6/2/09 at 6:00am

Re: Wireless connection nightmare

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon_Are
John and Dave,

Thanks for the detailed replies.

I went into the router settings to disable my wireless internet security. Afterwards, I found that all three of my wireless computers connected immediately (one laptop Mac, one laptop PC, one desktop PC).

The new Mac? Still unable to connect.

By the way, the security in use was WPA-PSK, not WEP.

I'm going to try Dave's suggestion and take it to a WiFi spot to see what happens.

Should I return it to the Apple store?
Will they accept it in exchange for another (just bought it yesterday)?

Off to Panera for a bagel!

Thanks again,
Jon

Wow. That's very surprising. While I'm a "PC" myself, I freely acknowledge that MAC's have much better ease-of use, and I do love my iPod. Based on what you've already done, I do not expect that machine to connect on a free Wi-Fi network either. If I were you, I would skip Panera Bread, and take it straight to the Apple store [if there's one in your area]. I'm sure it's just a configuration issue of some sort.

Best wishes

John
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post #6 of 23
6/2/09 at 7:53am

Re: Wireless connection nightmare

I'm sorry, but it's absurd to say that Macs generally connect to wireless more easily than XP computers do. I've set up hundreds of computers on wireless networks. Wireless has nothing to do with operating systems. It has to do with the the wireless access point (modem, router, bridge, whatever) and the wireless card in the computer. If there is a poor antenna or it is damaged for some reason or the orientation in relation to the signal isn't right, it will work poorly or not at all.

Just at home I have 3 computers, a Wii, a Squeezebox, pan/tilt webcam, a network bridge for the blu-ray player and a network bridge for my printer all connected wirelessly. I've had countless guests hook up their computers to my WiFi. Never had connecting issues except for bad networking hardware.
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post #7 of 23
6/2/09 at 7:53am
Thread Starter 

Re: Wireless connection nightmare

Update: It works. Exclamation Point.

I went to the local library, set it up, and it immediately made a connection. I didn't expect this to happen and was prepared to continue on to the Apple store.

Instead, I went home with the intention of arranging a service call from ATT. Just for kicks, I booted up the Macbook again. No connection. Then I re-entered the 10-digit 'password', and had success.

I really appreciate the good advice I received here; you guys are awesome.

Jon
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post #8 of 23
6/2/09 at 9:34am

Re: Wireless connection nightmare

Quote:
Originally Posted by nolesrule
I'm sorry, but it's absurd to say that Macs generally connect to wireless more easily than XP computers do.
It's not when when XP out of the box can't connect to WPA2 WiFi, and you must go find some obscure security update to make it work. Maybe this changed with SP3 & Vista. But five XP laptops over the past two years couldn't connect to my WPA2 router; three succeeded with after getting the update (and two couldn't be updated).
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post #9 of 23
6/2/09 at 10:12am

Re: Wireless connection nightmare

Let me recycle this thread for my own tale of woe. I live in a Manhattan apartment building surrounded by other apartment buildings. Pretty much every apartment has their own WiFi, cordless phones, etc.

As you can imagine, this causes various networks, etc. to step on each other. When I was using 2.4 ghz 802.11g (Airport base station) I had two ways of combating interference: keep the "Use Interface Robustness" setting enabled, and if I still lost my connection, go into the Airport utility, and manually force a channel switch.

Once I got an Airport Extreme, I set up an 802.11n 5ghz only network (I use an old AirportExpress for the 2.4 ghz, 802.11g devices). Initially 802.11n was heaven -- no interference ever, fast enough to stream glitch free HD video etc. But a couple of times know, I have lost my 5 ghz connection, and have none of the old tools to fix it -- there is no "Use Interface Robustness" setting, nor are there channels that can be manually switched. The problem will only get worse as my many neighbors slowly but surely upgrade to 5Ghz devices.

Any suggestions? The only settings I've seen (in Advanced) is the option to use "wide channels" whatever that means -- I have for now left it at the default setting.
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post #10 of 23
6/2/09 at 10:40am

Re: Wireless connection nightmare

My old Dell laptop w/ Intel chipset for WiFi -- I specifically paid the extra $10 or so for that chipset thinking I should have less compatibility problems w/ it -- also cannot do wireless connection w/out some specific additional driver as I found out when I reinstalled XP a few months back. Would've thought Intel's chipset would be "standard" enough to be supported by an XP reinstall along w/ all the latest updates, but nope. Had to dig out the extra CD that Dell included for various drivers, etc.

Oh, I also found out from the reinstall that my old PowerDVD (that came w/ the laptop) doesn't work w/ XP3. That was just lovely since I was trying to get the laptop ready for a family vacation and wanted to use it for DVDs on the road-trip.

Anyway, basically, nothing is ever all that easy w/ the Wintel platform -- and if something is easy, there's good likelihood that it's probably simply causing some as-yet-undiscovered problem. Heck, I still can't figure out how to get audio to work again for Flash playback on my main PC. And w/ Micro$oft's constant bloating of the OS while trying to hide stuff away -- in the way that you basically stuff all your junk into an overstuffed closet -- it just gets harder and harder to troubleshoot anything anymore.

I still remember being told in a (pretty good) .NET training course a few years back that DLL hell will be a thing of the past w/ the arrival of .NET -- yeah, my foot it is since I still run into the problem w/ stuff like Oracle's ODP driver for .NET, especially now after a few releases of .NET to go w/ different flavors of XP/Vista/etc. and throwing in 32-bit vs 64-bit environments...

_Man_
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post #11 of 23
6/2/09 at 10:48am

Re: Wireless connection nightmare

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Todorov
Let me recycle this thread for my own tale of woe. I live in a Manhattan apartment building surrounded by other apartment buildings. Pretty much every apartment has their own WiFi, cordless phones, etc.

As you can imagine, this causes various networks, etc. to step on each other. When I was using 2.4 ghz 802.11g (Airport base station) I had two ways of combating interference: keep the "Use Interface Robustness" setting enabled, and if I still lost my connection, go into the Airport utility, and manually force a channel switch.

Once I got an Airport Extreme, I set up an 802.11n 5ghz only network (I use an old AirportExpress for the 2.4 ghz, 802.11g devices). Initially 802.11n was heaven -- no interference ever, fast enough to stream glitch free HD video etc. But a couple of times know, I have lost my 5 ghz connection, and have none of the old tools to fix it -- there is no "Use Interface Robustness" setting, nor are there channels that can be manually switched. The problem will only get worse as my many neighbors slowly but surely upgrade to 5Ghz devices.

Any suggestions? The only settings I've seen (in Advanced) is the option to use "wide channels" whatever that means -- I have for now left it at the default setting.


2.4Ghz interference is a good point. I specifically skipped the 2.4Ghz cordless phones for a 5Ghz model a while back for this reason. I also noticed that my old microwave(!) oven presented an interference problem too -- our new, less powerful one doesn't seem to present a problem now.

And yeah, I seem to have more connectivity problems during certain times of the day/night probably because of the neighbors.

Not sure what to suggest except maybe try switching back to the old 2.4Ghz setup to see if that works better at some point.

_Man_
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post #12 of 23
6/2/09 at 12:00pm

Re: Wireless connection nightmare

Quote:
Originally Posted by Man-Fai Wong
Not sure what to suggest except maybe try switching back to the old 2.4Ghz setup to see if that works better at some point.
It doesn't -- I'm still losing my 2.4Ghz network (iPhones, my wife 1st gen MacBook) much more frequently.
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post #13 of 23
6/2/09 at 1:38pm

Re: Wireless connection nightmare

Leave NYC for NY suburbs, where we don't have such overloaded airwaves?

That's a problem, alright. Can you combine efforts with neighbors to share routers? Would that even help?
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post #14 of 23
6/2/09 at 7:03pm

Re: Wireless connection nightmare

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveF
It's not when when XP out of the box can't connect to WPA2 WiFi, and you must go find some obscure security update to make it work. Maybe this changed with SP3 & Vista. But five XP laptops over the past two years couldn't connect to my WPA2 router; three succeeded with after getting the update (and two couldn't be updated).

I can't explain the 2 that couldn't be updated, since you didn't provide any details, but it's no surprise that XP wouldn't necessarily support WPA2 out of the box. Changes occurred to WiFi encryption over time.

When XP came out it only supported WEP. WiFi hardware was WEP only, but that changed, and WPA was added. XP SP2 added support for WPA. WPA2 support was added for Service pack 3; there are specific windows utilities that you can download to allow an SP1 computer to support WPA and for SP2 to support WPA2, because of the timeline of the WPA rollout.

You see, each manufacturer puts together their own OEM build of Windows, and it's up to them to ensure that it has the most advanced drivers and utilities for the hardware they are putting into the computer. That said, these companies only revise their post service pack updates every few months, so there will always be drivers and utilities that need updating out of the box.
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post #15 of 23
6/2/09 at 7:13pm

Re: Wireless connection nightmare

Quote:
Originally Posted by Man-Fai Wong
2.4Ghz interference is a good point. I specifically skipped the 2.4Ghz cordless phones for a 5Ghz model a while back for this reason. I also noticed that my old microwave(!) oven presented an interference problem too -- our new, less powerful one doesn't seem to present a problem now.

I have an 802.11g webcam, and when people are viewing it, it interferes with my cordless phones to the point where people on the other end can't hear me.

Interference can be a big problem, but that's OS independent, just like the hardware issues. Aluminum wall studs which are common in office environments are one of the biggest causes of WiFi interference. Microwaves and cordless phones are the other big offenders.
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post #16 of 23
6/2/09 at 7:44pm

Re: Wireless connection nightmare

Quote:
Originally Posted by nolesrule
You see, each manufacturer puts together their own OEM build of Windows, and it's up to them to ensure that it has the most advanced drivers and utilities for the hardware they are putting into the computer. That said, these companies only revise their post service pack updates every few months, so there will always be drivers and utilities that need updating out of the box.

Dude. I think you just made Dave's point better than he did. XP is too busy trying to be all things to all people to ever be an "efficient" operating system. MAC's simply do a better job of system integration, which is a much easier task in a proprietary environment.

I'll probably always be a "PC," because I don't want to own anything I can't repair, rebuild etc., but you just can't deny the simple elegance of the MAC platform.

John
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post #17 of 23
6/2/09 at 9:01pm

Re: Wireless connection nightmare

Macs are no different than any other computers. They all need to be updated as new technology comes out. It all depends on the point in the development cycle you make your purchase whether or not it'll work out of the box with the latest and greatest.
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post #18 of 23
6/3/09 at 5:40am

Re: Wireless connection nightmare

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveF
Leave NYC for NY suburbs, where we don't have such overloaded airwaves?

That's a problem, alright. Can you combine efforts with neighbors to share routers? Would that even help?
Yeah, that would be no and no. First I suspect most of the interference comes from cordless phones, etc. Second, I need to be on my own private network. I am using my iPhone to control my HTPC Mac, I am transferring data back and forth, I have networked data in public folders.

As for the suburbs, better dead than suburban -- for me anyway
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post #19 of 23
6/3/09 at 6:04am

Re: Wireless connection nightmare

Have you tried using VPN over the phone's data connection rather than using wifi? It's gonna be a little laggy, but it could work.
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post #20 of 23
6/3/09 at 9:56am

Re: Wireless connection nightmare

Quote:
Originally Posted by nolesrule
Have you tried using VPN over the phone's data connection rather than using wifi? It's gonna be a little laggy, but it could work.
A laggy remote control is all I need. No thanks.
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post #21 of 23
6/3/09 at 10:42am

Re: Wireless connection nightmare

Well, it wouldn't hurt to try. You never know. Though I wouldn't hold my breath.

I was just throwing out a possible alternate idea. You're right, of course, that lag would be a pain.
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post #22 of 23
6/3/09 at 4:38pm

Re: Wireless connection nightmare

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Todorov
I have lost my 5 ghz connection, and have none of the old tools to fix it -- there is no "Use Interface Robustness" setting, nor are there channels that can be manually switched.
Found the answer to my own question -- for once Google/Apple.com trumps HTF: If you press the Option key when selecting the channel in n mode, you can select a channel other than "automatic" in the Airport Configuration tool

Problem solved! Here is a link to the thread I got the answer from: Apple - Support - Discussions - Airport Extreme 5GHz N Channel ...
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post #23 of 23
6/5/09 at 6:12am

Re: Wireless connection nightmare

Ted,

Good to hear you've resolved the problem. Maybe I should try selecting a specific channel for my 2.4Ghz WiFi setup too to see if that wouldn't help.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nolesrule
Macs are no different than any other computers. They all need to be updated as new technology comes out. It all depends on the point in the development cycle you make your purchase whether or not it'll work out of the box with the latest and greatest.

You're right to an extent. Thing is Apple exerts much greater control/influence over system integration on the Mac whereas Microsoft/Intel does very little in that regard -- although I guess they're trying to do a tad more w/ .NET now, but maybe too little too late. That makes a big diff for this kind of issue.

In fact, underneath the hood, a Mac is really just a quality built PC w/ the Mac OS on top. And even that OS environment is no longer so proprietary as it once was. Indeed, for *those* reasons, I'm actually more and more likely to consider moving to the Mac platform for home use at some point.

As the Wintel platform has increasingly become overbloated and difficult to maintain (w/out doing stuff like full system reinstall) while the Mac platform has gradually adopted good things from the Wintel side (eg. expandability, less proprietary OS, etc.), the platform just isn't so compelling anymore. Probably only the cost-of-ownership factor is keeping me from switching just yet -- yeah, I'm a cheapskate when it comes to our home computing needs.

_Man_
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