*** Official TERMINATOR SALVATION Discussion Thread - Page 2

Re: *** Official TERMINATOR SALVATION Discussion Thread

Chris,

Just read on another forum that McG is going to have some type of extended cut on DVD this fall. The question obviously is how much of the 30 to 40 minutes of deleted scenes will make it back into the extended cut because, to me, it just has to be characters stuff, not action...because this film aces that in spades for my money.

Again, I think McG got the bad end of the deal with this film with this cut. I mean, I could just feel the cuts. And even with that, it still bests T3 by a wide margin for my money.

Re: *** Official TERMINATOR SALVATION Discussion Thread

Major spoilers will abound, but I can't discuss my opinions on where the film goes astray without getting specific. So I get VERY specific with story details.

Cory may be right, and there might be some good material cut that makes the film feel more like a film and less like a commercial. If there is an extended cut with at least 10 more minutes, I'll give it a try. Otherwise, I can't really make heads or tails of this film.

I probably won't bother with the small gripes, but I have to target the two big ones.

1) There is absolutely a boner of the "Kirk meeting Spock on Delta thanks to an extraordinary confluence of astronomically unlikely events for screenwriting needs" level. Bigger maybe, considering the relative tones and histories of the two series. This will be my narrative gripe.

1a) I hate that Skynet has a "personality" in this film. I like HBC a lot. But one of the charms of the first 2 films, and the 3rd one even got this mostly right, is that the antagonist is cold and inhuman. Methodical, brutal, relentless...but impersonal. There was a tiny little of bit of malice by the T1000, but it was calculated. Seeing Skynet monologue (to use The Incredibles parlance) and twirl its figurative mustache was dumb. But that isn't my grip, really.

So Skynet's BIG plan is:
1) to create an infiltrator out of a death row inmate with a conscience,
2) hide it in lab for 15 years,
3) blow the lab to hell, killing everyone but Marcus,
4) let him walk around the wasteland until he meets Kyle Reese (the very first person he meets),
5) shoot down the most acrobatic A-10 Warthog ever, but without killing the hottie pilot, right where Marcus can interact with her,
6) have her get assaulted by three central casting goons to allow her to trust him,
7) get him to one of the resistance bases (and they obviously have QUITE A FEW),
8) conveniently the one with John Connor,
9) to coordinate his ingress into Skynet San Fran?

Honestly, some of that is a good idea...I can buy 1, 7, and 9 - plus a few of things that happened that could be attributed to his subtle programming.

But 4? Seriously...4? Or 6? Or 8? I could deal with one of those. The idea is good...an infiltrator. That is actually really good. But the narrative mechanisms are quite flawed. And they topped it off with the Borg Skynet queen explaining the genius and inevitability of the plan?

But that isn't necessarily a deal breaker. As Star Trek recently showed, great characters can overcome some poor plotting. Characters have arcs, and Marcus has the arc in this film. It's not bad. It needed some more work, especially upfront, but we can fill in some blanks. John Conner though...his arc is uncertainty. And pretty much left incomplete.

Here was my key problem with the script. Conner makes it a point to save Kyle Reese...specifically discussing not performing a major operation in the context of "we have to save Kyle Reese!" This makes him sound like a self-involved douche. Later, when conducting his Bill Pullman ID4 speech, he makes a much better, much more tonally-consistent-with-T2 argument. Humans don't sacrifice their own to win battles, especially when they have a choice. I would have flipped the film a bit and had Conner working to rescue the citizens. I think it would have played with more intensity and truth to have John Conner trying to save people (as he points out how important each person is). And one of the people he saves is his father.

In short, the film has John Conner trying to save his father and therefore he rescues a bunch of people. The film should have him trying to rescue a bunch of people, and thus he meets his father. A thematic reward, so to speak.

It would call back to T2: "you can't just go around killing people". Conner should be focused on the prisoners...not the one he is related to. And I think the film meant to play that way, but it waited to long to make that clear, and Reese's presence muddies his motives. It would have been easy for the script to get Conner there (and trusting Marcus [sort of]) without Kyle Reese).

Lots of words (and I'm sorry), but a few tweaks might have made the film noticeable more intelligent. Third film of the summer...and the third one needing a better script. That writer's strike is really impacting the summer films, isn't it? Wolverine, ST, and T:S would have all benefitted from another pass or two through the material.

Minor gripes:
Should have used Linda Hamilton's narration from the first film. The lines in Salvation would have sounded LESS robotic had Johnny Five recited them.

Secondly, Sarah wouldn't have been able to tell him any specifics about the war or the machines. She only knows the T800, and barely at that. She teaches him how to fight, how to survive, how to lead...she couldn't give him intel. That part did not make sense in the least.

And did the TX tell all future secrets to Skynet in T3? Because they knew a lot of stuff you'd only know if you'd seen the movies or had access to info from the defeated Terminators from previous films. Aside from the TX's actions in T3 (a film I have only seen once, but I am reaching here), how could Skynet know some of that shit? They haven't even invented the time displacement crap yet.

And Skynet San Fran looked cheap as balls. T2 3D was far more grand than this.

This is all the negative. There is some positive, but this film is a real missed opportunity. I didn't even get into Kyle Reese (who I mostly liked, with some reservations). Poor Yelchin, two summer films, two impersonations.

Anyways, more as we discuss later.

Re: *** Official TERMINATOR SALVATION Discussion Thread

Chuck,

That's the thing with this franchise. The time-travel angle essentially can explain the logic of how Skynet, pre-Judgment Day, figured out who Kyle Reese was to John Connor. Because, essentially, every action that has taken place in the Terminator films change the future and how the war will be waged. I think I can buy that. That's why I liked the idea at the beginning of the film of the T-800's being ahead of scheduled compared to the knowledge that John knew. That's a connection to the previous films.

But, the situation with John and the capture of Rees kind of screws the film in a way.

For John, he's basically selfish as hell through out this film once he finds out that Reese is at the top of the list for Skynet. Now, the obvious question is if Kyle Reese does get killed by the machines, does John automatically disappear. That's a question that kind of validates why the hell the machines didn't kill Reese the minute they caught him. I mean, essentially, the mission was to capture Reese in order to lure Conner to Skynet....why not just kill Reese before he's been sent back to the past and see what happens?

But again, we don't understand the rise of Connor in this film. We kind of see why with his actions in the film. He's clearly a great solider but that's really it. Why don't know why anyone in his unit would follow him. We can understand why the people around the world listening to his broadcast would...we understand why Reese takes to him. It's just the development of him within the unit and with his wife and why she so narrowly follows her husband isn't shown at all...and this is where I think the film got cut a lot. I mean, Bryce and Christian get neutered in this film. I mean, hell, they don't even mention the unborn child. But, John's journey is too selfish because of what he's been told and not what he's done. And yet, there is one great moment by Bale that gets what I think they were going with Connor in this film absolutely right. It's the scene between him and Kate after the revelation of Marcus. Literally, John's world is shattered. He has no idea what awaits his future with a Terminator who actually believes its human. It shatters his belief system that was told to him before he was born. That one segment is what I wanted more of with the Connor character in this film. I mean, essentially, he's been fighting this war before he was born. He has to be tired as hell. And I think that Bale plays him that way...just totally battle wry and worn out thinking about this all the time (which is mentioned by Sarah on the tapes). I just think a lot of the essential character details to lead up to that scene got cut out...and I'm just assuming a lot of that was with him and Kate.

And I say all of these negatives and still feel this is a better film than T3, just based on the tone, action, and design of the thing. McG got that right.

It's the character details that make the film feel really, really short.

And yet, I want to see more of this because the obvious follow up to this film has to have John mentor Reese in order to finally send him back to '84 to protect Sarah. The third film will ultimately be the end of the war.

But, because of the actions in this film, the future is changed again. Anything can happen.

I still believe McG has a very good war film on the avid waiting to get out but Chuck's points about Marcus' journey do raise very valid points.

Re: *** Official TERMINATOR SALVATION Discussion Thread

chuck hit the nail on the head.

but i have two things to add.

1. skynet still should have killed reese. it had already been established that skynet knew connor would attempt a rescue of reese. if not before hand the second he showed up skynet should have killed reese.

2. i am all for some hollywood magic and all. but sometimes in movies the realm of reality is too far stretched. who here with common sense believes that a heart transplant occurs in the open field on a whim? let alone from a hybrid terminator with a physiology that made no sense to anyone at the time?

okay the first rebuttal is that who believes in terminators? and my response is that i can buy a terminator for the purposes of the film and mythos. but i can't buy a convenient wrap up of a movie simply to save the protagnonist. super duper terrible writing and absolutely not believable.

Re: *** Official TERMINATOR SALVATION Discussion Thread

Maybe I totally missed something, but I left the theater thinking Marcus' origin wasn't completely explained because that'll come later. It didn't seem to me so much that they were avoiding an explanation, but that they didn't want to give the audience any information that the protagonists didn't have.

I'm not convinced Skynet made Marcus, at least not originally.

It's been a while since I've seen T3, but if I remember correctly, Skynet ended up being software that became self-aware within the global computer network, rather than a single piece of hardware that was built. Sarah Connor's actions in T2 with the destruction of Cyberdyne's lab may have changed the timeline in that Cyberdyne may no longer be part of Skynet's origin.

At any rate, watching the film, I guessed that Marcus donated his body to science as we saw at the beginning of the film. Whether it was the scientist's death or Judgment Day, work on the project seems to have gone unfinished or at least forgotten. I think we also see briefly that Cyberdyne ended up either being bought by the military or had military contracts. So what if, circa 2003, a biotech firm with government backing is researching technology to make human-machine hybrids, cyborgs, as a way to prolong life... the medical research community is interested for fixing broken bodies, the military is interested ostensibly for the same purpose but perhaps for the creation of more powerful soldiers as well...

Anyhow, it seemed possible to me that Marcus could have been created pre-Skynet, just as the HKs had been (we see this in T3 as well). Skynet found Marcus, fixed him up, and sent him out into the world. Probably used him to reverse-engineer technology they would need to make the T-800 as well.

I'm not convinced that's the case, but I'm not convinced the explanations submitted in this thread so far are any closer -- this played out like a mystery element that presumably will be brought up in the next film. The T-800 is way ahead of schedule... something's wrong... I was hoping to see more of that angle in this film, and I hope that's something that's brought up in the next film.

I do agree that the heart transplant at the end played more as lazy writing than anything else. The entire thing goes down so quick that we have no emotional connection to what's happening. I think deep down we all know John Connor is going to survive the movie, so seeing him injured doesn't carry the same weight it would if it was a character that was new to this film. Then the whole transplant thing happens so matter-of-factly that we don't have time to even contemplate what the death of John Connor could mean to the resistance, or any sense of danger. (Certainly not the fact that tests need to be run to make sure the organ being donated was a match, and people who receive donations need to be on certain drugs for the rest of their lives to keep their body from rejecting the new organ... the world of 2018 didn't exactly seem like a place where such things were around in abundance.) The problem for me with that is that it didn't add anything to the story, and it since it was unrealistic to a level different from anything else in the film, it pulled me out of it a little bit. I can forgive wildly improbable or impossible occurrences in films and TV shows, especially in the sci-fi genre, but it has to either add something to the plot or to the characters, and this was done in such a way that it managed to accomplish neither.

But all in all I found more to like in the film than not, and I'd definitely enjoy seeing a longer, extended version of the film that added more character moments and/or plot development. The action stuff was first rate, and after three Terminator movies (and a TV show which, admittedly, isn't meant to fit into the same timeline as the most recent films) all taking place in the modern day, it was exciting to actually see the war.

Re: *** Official TERMINATOR SALVATION Discussion Thread

Josh,

You are correct. Skynet, through a military contract after the events of T2, was software.

As for John's situation at the end of the film, now knowing the original ending, that ending would've worked thematically better than what we got here.

Re: *** Official TERMINATOR SALVATION Discussion Thread

Some more thoughts, after a little e-digging.

1) My issue with Skynet knowing the future is already the paradox of not killing Reese. And HOW do they know it? John has his mother's tapes. How does Skynet learn from the T-800's and the T-1000? Or even the T-X? I know all of this paradox stuff can be magicked away, but it is weird to see Skynet Queen be so knowledgeable and predictive.

2) The original ending would have been far more thematically appropriate, even modified somewhat. Follows: Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show) Besides the John as Christ parallels (which would have worked even better had they played up his "conscience of the resistance"), why would a doctor and others willingly KILL Marcus to use his heart? Hippocratic oath and all that. I would assume Kate is a loving wife, but also a moral doctor. Marcus would have to DIE in order to transplant his heart. I have issues seeing a hero character accept that outcome. Including John.

3) I'm not sure I agree with Cory that a truly good movie (and KoH: DC is a great movie!) is in McG director's cut. A better one probably is. But the fundamentals of the script needed some real work.

4) Speaking of, while I thought he was a bit too competent as Reese, I did enjoy Yelchin's performance. It was occasionally eerie An improved second half would have made better use of the character than bait. I did enjoy the performance though. Except for the silly call-forwards to earlier films (a prequel set in the future...time travel sucks).

5) I did enjoy the direction, for the most part. And I was impressed with the look. McG obviously watched a lot more Cameron than just the Terminator films. There was a bit of Aliens and The Abyss thrown into the pot during certain scenes.

A missed opportunity, for certain.

Re: *** Official TERMINATOR SALVATION Discussion Thread

Chuck,

Yeah. Maybe not truly good but a much better one has to exist in the director's cut form. Here's hoping in the fall when it hits home video.

As for the Skynet part, I just don't think there's a clear answer in any of the films except for the paradox angle. I mean, that's pretty much the only thing you can hang your hat on when trying to piece it together. This afternoon, I went through all the important exposition parts in the previous three films and you don't get the answer.

It's just as simple as Skynet got wind of it, through it being software based, before the bombs fell in T3 or maybe in the time period between T2 and T3.

Either way, it's anyone's guess.

Re: *** Official TERMINATOR SALVATION Discussion Thread

There may have been clues left behind... for instance, when Sarah Connor and Kyle Reese were detained by the police in T1, they explained one version of the future there, and we know that exchange was recorded. In T2, we see that Sarah's told the people at the hospital that someone from the future is the father of her son, etc. They obviously kept videotapes and records of Sarah's time there... if Skynet pretty much takes over every computer in the world and has access to just about anything, who's to say that it didn't pick up some background info there. If John Connor was a rising force in the resistance, I can believe Skynet would check its database for anything it might have on that name, and come up with some records that said his mom was a crazy who thought his dad came from the future... and reading the details of Sarah's story, I could see how they could at least have pieces of the puzzle.

And who knows if the T-X did something offscreen in T3 to give the "just being born" Skynet an advantage?

Surprisingly, that didn't bother me.

I'm not sure the "originally scripted" ending (if it was indeed the original ending) is any better, for a number of reasons. For one, it kills John Connor, which is something I don't want to see this early into this new set of films. There are too many exciting things they can do in just showing Skynet continuing to advance, and the resistance bringing the fight to the brink, for them to be wasting time on silly sci-fi stuff like ripping John Connor's flesh off his dead body to put it over a terminator endoskeleton. It's just too out there for me as a way to end the first film, it seems more gimmicky and "hey, that sounds like cool future sci-fi kinda stuff" than anything else.

It felt like Terminator Salvation gave us such a limited window into the world of the characters that it's difficult to know where they're going with this. Could it just be a couple more mostly straight-up war films? Will there be more sci-fi elements in future films? Will they go into the creation of the T-800s and make a plot point out of why they've started showing up way too early? Is Marcus' appearance in the first film part of a larger story arc or does he simply exist to die for John? I feel like they could go just about anywhere with this, and it's hard for me to feel too strongly one way or the other about this film because I feel like I just saw a lot of events without context. If the context is filled in later and was kept under the surface as a plot device, I'm all for it. If this new series is just about blowing shit up, then they missed a golden opportunity to do something special. But it just seems way too early to tell.

Re: *** Official TERMINATOR SALVATION Discussion Thread

I think Chuck gets part of it and addresses it as a complaint that he hates that Skynet has a personality. Let me go beyond that: it defeats the entire purpose of every film in the series.

The moment we realize that Skynet truly has a sinister motive, then it started to strike me as just... goofy. I liked the idea as presented especially in T2 that Skynet had become self aware and rationalized that no matter what, the greatest cause of war was humans, and therefore the logical conclusion was to wipe out all humans. It was a great reveal and it made all of the killing done by Skynet seem to be relentless because it too, believed that it was doing only "what it had to do".

Skynet's machinations (hah!) in this film just made you wait to find some evil programmer who had fed it into Skynet, or a reveal of something like that.

The action set pieces were good, but honestly? If you can live without a plot and you just want action, the action setpieces in Wolverine were just as good, and the plot, while messy, wasn't this devestatingly bad.. and that's saying a lot considering I think Wolverine is "eh" kind of a film with a few good moments.

This however is just a soulless action film that paints by the numbers to hit certain action sequences, has a slick look and a storyline that depends on you being recently lobotomized.

Re: *** Official TERMINATOR SALVATION Discussion Thread

I am a HUGE fan of the original Terminator film. I was not expecting a lot from this one, but left feeling that I got my money out of it.

I agree that the story could have been much better. I would have preferred just a great war story of man vs. machine rather than all the crap with the human/terminator hybrid.

Not sure if it was just the theater I was in, but WOW...I really loved the sound effects in this film! The T-600's sounded just great! Not often a films sound effects stand out, but I thought they did in this one.

My wife and I were both so confused in that opening scene. John Conner climbs up out of the hole in the ground, jumps in a chopper, gets shot down, a nuke goes off in the distance and somehow that was to indicate that everyone in the hole died? I did not understand that at all. It seemed like he was only a few hundred feet from where he started, yet the nuke was far enough away not to harm him??? Just did not flow well for me.

I was surprised how good the Arnold model looked. That was some cool special effects! However, I was also surprised how little impact it made seeing him on the screen. I guess because it made no real sense (like a lot of things in this film) that he was hiding in the cells. Why waste a fully-fleshed out Terminator rather than having a dozen endoskeletons there to do the job right?

Oh, and Chuck, you said "She only knows the T800, and barely at that." that is not quite accurrate. She knows all about the T-1000!

Anyway, it was a fun night out. I am disappointed in the story, but thought it looked (and sounded) great.

Re: *** Official TERMINATOR SALVATION Discussion Thread

Agreed. The sound design was exceptional. Reference even. The technical aspects of the film were quite good, although the production design left a lot to be desired in the base and Skynet Central.

I *THINK* the long shot inside the helicopter is supposed to indicate he flew for a bit. It is hard to tell, so I just accepted that. Even though Marcus crawled up from like 15 feet away. So scratch that...it doesn't make much sense.

My audience went nuts when they saw him. I took it from Skynet's "personality" as a specific dig. Since they knew everything, they knew that was the model he was familiar with. It was a personal gesture, like sending your friend to kill you. I didn't like Skynet having a personality (at least an angry or vindictive one), but I did like that touch. Weird, I know.

True. I was mostly remembering the first film, fresh in my mind Although she would actually know nothing of previous models, and timeline barely at all (enough to know T-800's in 2018 is years early, I admit).

Re: *** Official TERMINATOR SALVATION Discussion Thread

what confused me even more was that a nuke went off (obvious by the mushroom cloud and the fallout) and marcus climbs out of the facility where the nuke went off.

sloppy.

Re: *** Official TERMINATOR SALVATION Discussion Thread

5 stars from me. I was actually smiling during the whole film. That good.

Yes, I could tell there were some character moments missing, but I trusted that they'll be back in the film once it arrives on video.

I was so pleased to see Journeyman's Moon Bloodgood in the film -- this means that there was one good thing to come out of the cancellation of that most excellent show: she became available to do Terminator. Yay. Redeemed history. I'd avoided spoilers so I didn't know.

And McCheese or whatever his name turned out to be a great director. Yay. He really knew the Terminator mythos. This was excellent.

And what a great liar Arnie was! He'd been telling Wired and everyone that they weren't sure if his visage would be able to make an appearance, saying it was proving difficult to pull off -- lowering expectations. All a tease, since when he appeared he was picture perfect!

I saw this showing in just standard 35mm but the quality was really good throughout. And I liked that the Terminators were faster on their feet than before, and more poseable.

I'd say the only bum note was Michael Ironsides, since he's too recognizable as a low-budget baddie. Well, for this Highlander fan anyway. But that was a minor nit.

T4 had the best bits of Resident Evil, Mad Max, and Terminator in one.

If I could change one other thing, it would have been to add some kind of audience-cheer moment somewhere in the final couple minutes, since the choppers sailing off into the sunset was kind of weak.

And ooh -- was the gas station they visited supposed to be the same gas station where in T1 Sarah was told "there's a storm coming"? If so, nods-a-plenty to Mayor McCheese again. Good tribute.

Re: *** Official TERMINATOR SALVATION Discussion Thread

Marcus was planted there. Whatever Skynet did to detonate that facility was carefully planned ahead of time.

And I don't think it was a nuke. It was a powerful bomb, and it lifted a lot of ash, but that doesn't make it nuclear.


Did you miss the opening crawl, where they restated that Skynet's motive was the same as it ever was: it became self-aware, realized that it was endangered by those erratic humans, and nuked them. Nothing in the film contradicted that, either. So what did you feel was new or different?

Re: *** Official TERMINATOR SALVATION Discussion Thread

will, i see that you are much more forgiving than i am.

about the nuke. given hollywood's pornographic use of them and the added bonus of nuclear fallout i can't see how that was not a nuclear explosion.

mushroom cloud+fallout=nuke.

additionally your statement of marcus being planted makes no sense. it was obvious that marcus was in the facility when the bomb went off as the camera pans across him as the resistance fighters infiltrate the facility. nuke or not, everything in there would have been destroyed. no way he just starts climbing out of the giant hole in the ground.

i am not the type but i could pick this movie apart. it was poor and insulting. if it wasn't for the stellar action scenes no one would be defending it.

i like good sci-fi action. i just don't want my intelligence to be insulted.

Re: *** Official TERMINATOR SALVATION Discussion Thread

Diallo,

It's not a nuke. Powerful? Yes. But not a nuke. Having just came back from a second viewing, the film works better but there are still problems...most having to do with the editing in the first two acts when it pertains to any character scenes with Connor.

Details wise, Skynet's plan is to kill Connor in the present, hence the reason they didn't kill Kyle Reese. Essentially, lure Connor in and having him take on our new prototype; the T-800.

Given all that, they still should've killed Kyle Reese. Marcus did his job in luring Reese. Skynet really had no use for him once Connor was in combat with the T-800.

The other detail that I still don't understand was Marcus' programming. It doesn't really make sense to Skynet's plan. He helps in the capture of Kyle Reese but its definitely not proactive at all. His actions just don't really make sense but I will give Sam Worthington some credit. I didn't really see his performance the first go around. I see it now.

Christian Bale and Bryce Dallas Howard got the short end of the stick. Their scenes are heavily edited. I'm almost positive that there was some good information and character in the stuff that didn't make it. Why they didn't make? I hope to find out on the DVD...because I think Christian is getting a bad rap for something he had no control over.

Re: *** Official TERMINATOR SALVATION Discussion Thread

That was easily my favorite moment of the movie. I generally avoid spoilers but from what I heard, it seemed to me like they were downplaying any possible Schwarzenegger appearance (like maybe you'd see a bunch of inactive Arnies standing there) so I was pleasantly surprised.

Re: *** Official TERMINATOR SALVATION Discussion Thread

Yes, he was in there. Planted there, as firmly planted there as the self-destruct mechanism that blew the place. He was probably in a very well fortified part of the facility that wasn't rigged to explode, so that he would emerge from the ruins thinking he'd maybe lost his memory in the blast. Then he'd find other humans, and eventually follow the route (finding and joining the resistance) that they'd programmed him to seek out.

And again, it wasn't a nuke. Electronics still worked after it went off. Besides, for the trick to work, Marcus couldn't have his fleshy bits fall off from radiation poisoning.

It was a set-up.

Re: *** Official TERMINATOR SALVATION Discussion Thread

Because he's just a robot with some human parts integrated.

And Marcus' arc is complete this way. He originally donated his organs as a lark, something to trade for the opportunity to insult the dying scientist (played by Helena Bonham Carter). He even expressed something along the lines of "take every bit of me until every piece is dead" or something.

But now, Marcus-reborn donates his heart consciously, for a purpose he believes is right and good.

That said, it would be nice if it turns out he'll just grow a new heart and be up and running once that happens. He was a good character, and a much better actor than Bale.

For the sake of the story I will pretend that Marcus' heart is made of some kind of ultra-clean, ultra-universal-donor-tissue that will mean that Connor won't be on anti-rejection drugs for the rest of his life. Or that by 2018, or before Judgment Day, the key to transferring tissue from one person to another was found.

Re: *** Official TERMINATOR SALVATION Discussion Thread

Eh...I liked T3 even better than this one. At least that one had a little humor and heart in it...the lack of heart I find ironic considering the ending. I didn't really care about any of the characters including John Connor. I love bleak films heck I'm a zombie movie fan but this franchise needs a little more than bleak to be considered a Terminator film. If I hadn't of watched any of the others I would say this was an ok film but just feel they missed out on a chance to do something really special.

Re: *** Official TERMINATOR SALVATION Discussion Thread

you have a whole lot of "for the sake of" going.

i don't want to get into minutiae but..... nevermind.

Re: *** Official TERMINATOR SALVATION Discussion Thread

The story IS asking us to accept that heart transplants are able to be done easily in 2018. It doesn't say how, but there's at least 2 reasonable ideas there. A film doesn't have to spell out everything. I'm just conjecturing about details.

But your failure to realize that Marcus was being deceived into thinking he was a regular guy is such a fundamental part of the story, I don't know how you could enjoy the film without understanding that.

Oh yeah, you didn't!

Re: *** Official TERMINATOR SALVATION Discussion Thread

I really liked it. In fact, I was surprised by how absorbed I was by it. I thought it was really well done, and better than T3 by a mile.

But seeing how many folks here really hated it, and are willing to spend lots and lots of time picking it apart, makes me reticent to defend it. I don't have the stamina some of you guys have.

I consider myself a reasonably intelligent guy. I have a couple university degrees. I'm usually quick to notice when a screenplay is being lazy or pandering to the lowest common denominator. I didn't sense that at all with this film.

Just sayin'. Big thumbs up from me.

Re: *** Official TERMINATOR SALVATION Discussion Thread

Despite the poor reviews and word of mouth, I had a good time with Terminator Salvation. It was a lot better than I was expecting---that's the good thing about low expectations.

I really did think it was better than the buzz surrounding the film. I kept hearing complaints about the editing, but I wasn't bothered by it at all.

I did get the idea that everyone, from McG to Bale to the SFX artists, was trying too hard. They were trying to make a great and profound film. Unfortunately that it is not. And the themes, symbolism, etc. were too obvious and forced, which is a shame because I love the Terminator universe and it is ripe for some higher level discussion.

Still, while it wasn't the greatest film, it was worth the five bucks and two hours.

Re: *** Official TERMINATOR SALVATION Discussion Thread

actually that is part of the movie i bought.....

Re: *** Official TERMINATOR SALVATION Discussion Thread

I had low expectations but I thought it was decent.

It's a better movie than something like Transformers. The story is decent at times, and laughably flawed in logic at others ... but so was Star Trek. Not understanding why one gets a pass while the other is hammered for it.

Action wise it is the best action movie of the summer so far. There are some pretty spectacular action sequences.

To my surprise the characters of Marcus and Kyle Reese could've carried this film alone. In fact I thought the movie was at its strongest when Marcus was in the desert and we get a peak into a Mad Max-ian post-apocalyptic group of essentially "human tribes". That part of the film also reminded me the most of Cameron's previous films even if it didn't have the "we're being hunted by a Terminator" plot going on.

Christian Bale surprisingly is the weakest part of the film. His John Connor, whether by design or acting style is completely a one-note Batman-ish character. Worthington's Marcus completely does steal the show.

I thought the first half of the movie was a lot stronger than the second half where it sorta limps to the Skynet HQ ending ... seeing inside a robot factory for whatever reason isn't nearly as cool as it would sound. Terminator 3 I thought also suffered from a weak ending because of this. Salvation gets through, but I thought the better action and more fun was in the 1st half of the film. The second half wasn't terrible, but the story did start to show a lot more cracks.

I loved the nod to Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show) from T2 though. If you're on the fence ... go see it. I do think this film is being judged a tad harshly IMO.

Re: *** Official TERMINATOR SALVATION Discussion Thread

I admit going into this movie that I thought the whole Marcus Wright story angle was a disaster in the making and so was Anton Yelchin as Kyle Reese (he was too over the top in Star Trek and I didn't Kyle Reese in this kid *at all*).

But hey, it had Christian Bale ... right? There had to be something there. And Bryce Dallas Howard.

The odd thing is Worthing (Marcus) and Yelchin (Reese) totally OWN this movie. The section of the movie where it's just the two of them and the kid are the best parts of the movie.

By contrast, Bale is trying way too hard, and has little to no chemistry with Dallas Howard. They also never touch on the implications that Howard is apparently pregnant.

I was pretty surprised by this, because this is the exact opposite of what I was expecting going into the film.

If they had focused the film on Marcus Wright and Kyle Reese and then perhaps had John Connor revealed at the end, it likely would've worked much better.

Re: *** Official TERMINATOR SALVATION Discussion Thread

Guys:

I have a question about a possible flaw I saw in the movie.

It concerns the opening credits of the movie. In writing, the movie indicated that Skynet became "self aware" in the early 21st century.

But this is clearly wrong right? According to Terminator 2, Skynet became "self aware" somewhere around August 27 or August 29 1997. I am talking specifically about the scene that follows after Sarah breaks out of the Pescadero Mental hospital. As they are driving down the dessert, the Terminator tells Sarah all he knows about Miles Bennett Dyson and Skynet. I remember specifically that the Terminator said that Skynet became "self-aware" somewhere in August 1997 and that humans then tried to pull the plug. This is not the 21st century as Terminator Salvation indicates in the opening credits.

What do you guys think?