Home Theater Forum › Home Theater Forum › Entertainment › Music › New stylus and three new LPs on the way.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

New stylus and three new LPs on the way.

post #1 of 34
4/21/09 at 8:30am
Thread Starter 
The "Loudness Wars" make me so sad. The other day I tried to listen to Paul McCartney's "Memory Almost Full", all I could hear was a distorted mess. Just for grins I decided to bring up Sound Forge with rips of a couple of songs from Metallica's "ReLoad" which I have as a CD recorded from my vinyl compared to a couple CD singles I have from that record. The results were depressing.

I really like CD - it sounds better than vinyl when it is mastered well. It's very unfortunate that mastering is such a disaster. I give up. Since I have a turntable I guess I can take advantage of it. I ordered the new McCartney record, the new U2 record, and the new EZ Star All Stars record and a new stylus.

I am NOT a golden eared audiophile who insists that vinyl sounds better than CD, but the practical matter is that with modern CD mastering standards, LPs sound not only better, but WAY WAY better. If you can't beat 'em join 'em I guess.
Reply
post #2 of 34
4/21/09 at 6:14pm

Re: New stylus and three new LPs on the way.

LP do sound WAY better Philip.

I really enjoy spinning the black circle. I'm rocking a VPI Scoutmaster with a Grado Sonata now.

I have found that a cleaning machine like a VPI 16.5 or a Nitty Gritty makes a major improvement on playback.
Reply
post #3 of 34
4/22/09 at 7:55am
Thread Starter 

Re: New stylus and three new LPs on the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Scoggins
LP do sound WAY better Philip.
I agree given current mastering standards. However, all else being equal, CD rules. A few weeks ago I decided to give a good listen to "Dark Side Of The Moon", an album I haven't listened to in a long time. (I've heard it so often that I'd be fine never hearing it again - and since getting the Easy Star version a few years ago that has replaced it for those classic songs). I compared the MFSL "Original Master Recording" LP with the original black label Harvest Japan CD that I bought in 1986 the day I got my first CD player. The LP sounded great, but the CD sounded -way- better. Both the versions I have (CD and LP) are considered to be excellent masters.

Not sure what made me think of listening to that record. It may have been reading a review where someone compared the SACD and CD layers of of the CD and found appalling brickwall limiting in "Money".

Anyway, what I intend to do is master my own CDs from the vinyl (as I've done with so much vinyl already). My Emu 1212 sound card has the same analog-to-digital converters as protools hardware so my results are pretty good. The phono preamp in my old Pioneer receiver is adequate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Scoggins
I really enjoy spinning the black circle. I'm rocking a VPI Scoutmaster with a Grado Sonata now.
My turntable is a mid-90s Denon DP-7f with a circa 1984 Stanton L-737E cartridge. Sounds pretty good. Lots of problems with high noise floor, sibilance, distortion on the inside grooves, etc. Same old vinyl bugaboos that made me embrace CD in the 80s. I'm considering building a shelf for the table, as getting it off the stereo stand is always a good idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Scoggins
I have found that a cleaning machine like a VPI 16.5 or a Nitty Gritty makes a major improvement on playback.
My old D4 Discwasher's going to have to do the trick for now.

My only question now is - is it worth it to me to record to 96/24 then let Sony CD Architect (I use the SoundForge suite) dither down to CD standard. I wish there was a mass-market CD burning program that did HDCD! I could write DVD-Audio up to full 192/24 (the sound card came with software for this) but given my experiment with DSOTM above I don't think it would be worth it.
Reply
post #4 of 34
4/22/09 at 12:40pm

Re: New stylus and three new LPs on the way.

As for the new LPs:
I dont care if they are pressed on 180 POUNDS of vinyl if they dont:

1. use pure HQ virgin vinyl-or the equivalent grade of 'recycled vinyl'-
where they cut out and dispose of the center label and then carefully filter out all foreign substances-
otherwise you get a buildup of micro ground-up label paper in the mix-which tends to clump-and not allow uniform spread and layering

2. allow for the LPs to cool properly-this makes a big difference-and dont try to crank 'em out as fast as possible-

3. thoroughly clean the stampers after each press run of micro and larger bits of residue-and create fresh new stampers from the master a little more often that once a year-or becoming flat and near grooveless-whichever came first

If the above steps are not rigidly adhered to, then why waste our time?
And money-the cost of some of these LPs are ridiculous

Prior to the end of the LP in the late 1980s-Japanese and EU LPs by law, adhered to the above steps as a matter of course-
and I think 150 grams of vinyl was the norm, right out of the box-no huge deal; adding to that-often hi grade covers of finely finished clay based-or textured/embossed paper with fine inks were used. I have quite a few of them-some almost seem like handmade works of art-here they just chopped the LP covers out on low grade cardboard

as for CDs-I am at a loss why they are not being mastered at least at 48khz and 32 bit sampling (perhaps the medium wont allow for it? though I though a battle was fought over this and 44khz was a compromise);
Better yet-put all "CDs" out in the DVD format, for even higher quality-the CD is now the "low rent" medium and should be obsoleted ASAP
Im thinking those little 4" DVDs would be perfect, without wasting the space of a 4.7Gb disc-unless needed
Reply
post #5 of 34
4/22/09 at 6:50pm

Re: New stylus and three new LPs on the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip Hamm
I agree given current mastering standards. However, all else being equal, CD rules. A few weeks ago I decided to give a good listen to "Dark Side Of The Moon", an album I haven't listened to in a long time. (I've heard it so often that I'd be fine never hearing it again - and since getting the Easy Star version a few years ago that has replaced it for those classic songs). I compared the MFSL "Original Master Recording" LP with the original black label Harvest Japan CD that I bought in 1986 the day I got my first CD player. The LP sounded great, but the CD sounded -way- better. Both the versions I have (CD and LP) are considered to be excellent masters.

Unusually the MFSL of Dark Side is actually very mediocre. The German LPs are the way to go there. They keep up with the SACD and all the best CD masterings. I have the black triangles, the silverfaces, and everything. For digital, the SACD is the best.
Reply
post #6 of 34
4/24/09 at 12:48pm
Thread Starter 

Re: New stylus and three new LPs on the way.

Damn stylus doesn't fit. Every database online including Needle Doctor lists the stylus replacement the same so they all must be wrong. Oh, well. $20 down the drain - fresh perfect stylus goes to the trash. Small loss - I was very suspicious of putting such a cheap stylus on such a nice cart anyway. Guess the old cart goes out to pasture. I'll have to settle for the Audio Technica 311EP which is a pretty good cart also.

The Easy Stars All Stars record sounds fantastic! I'm sure it probably sounds better than the CD. Great mastering, great pressing! Also, there's bonus tracks on an included 45 that are not available on the CD! Whoopie!
Reply
post #7 of 34
4/25/09 at 4:05pm

Re: New stylus and three new LPs on the way.

Philip,

If you don't want a record cleaning machine, you can get some one step cleaner from Mofi via their parent MusicDirect for $25. It is geared to hand cleaning so it evaporates quickly:

MUSICDIRECT - MOBILE FIDELITY - MFSL ONE RECORD CLEANING FLUID (16 Oz)

Call up the NeedleDoctor and see what they can do. They seem to have a lot of stylus knowledge there.
Reply
post #8 of 34
4/26/09 at 3:48pm
Thread Starter 

Re: New stylus and three new LPs on the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Scoggins
Philip,

If you don't want a record cleaning machine, you can get some one step cleaner from Mofi via their parent MusicDirect for $25. It is geared to hand cleaning so it evaporates quickly:

MUSICDIRECT - MOBILE FIDELITY - MFSL ONE RECORD CLEANING FLUID (16 Oz)

Call up the NeedleDoctor and see what they can do. They seem to have a lot of stylus knowledge there.
I'm happy with the old D4 Discwasher. Needle Doctor lists the wrong stylus for my old cart.

Paul McCartney "Memory Almost Full" sounds like dog-ess on record. The recording is horrendous. It reminds me of the Hugh Padgham produced "Press to Play" - who knows if the songs are any good you can't get past the heavy handed dated production. This thing is dated as soon as it came out.
Reply
post #9 of 34
4/26/09 at 7:57pm

Re: New stylus and three new LPs on the way.

Philip,

Buy one of the MusicMatters Blue Note jazz reissues. That will ignite a love of vinyl for you.
Reply
post #10 of 34
4/27/09 at 5:46am
Thread Starter 

Re: New stylus and three new LPs on the way.

Like the LP of John Coltrane's "Blue Train" and of Sonny Rollins' "Saxophone Collossus" that I bought at Tower Records a few years ago? Nice stuff.

Upon further listening to the CD of my needle drop of the "Memory Almost Full" I'm a happy boy.
Reply
post #11 of 34
4/27/09 at 7:46am

Re: New stylus and three new LPs on the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip Hamm
Like the LP of John Coltrane's "Blue Train" and of Sonny Rollins' "Saxophone Collossus" that I bought at Tower Records a few years ago? Nice stuff.

Upon further listening to the CD of my needle drop of the "Memory Almost Full" I'm a happy boy.

The new 45rpm set of Blue Train on the Analogue Productions label is terrific. Even beats my terrific DAD disc on Classic.

Check this out: Music Matters, Ltd. - The Definitive Blue Note® 45RPM Reissue Series
Reply
post #12 of 34
4/28/09 at 1:57pm

Re: New stylus and three new LPs on the way.

Philip,

As good as those Stantons were, you should try another cartridge (at reasonable money of course) at some point. The technology has really advanced and some of the vinyl bugaboos you are describing is likely related to the cartridge. I like the Grado line (I use the Grado Sonata on my VPI Scoutmaster) but there are a variety of budget carts that sound great.
Reply
post #13 of 34
4/29/09 at 5:34am
Thread Starter 

Re: New stylus and three new LPs on the way.

The AT 311EP cart is fairly well regarded; I picked it up at my local hifi shop a few years back, it'll do.
Reply
post #14 of 34
4/29/09 at 7:31pm

Re: New stylus and three new LPs on the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip Hamm
The AT 311EP cart is fairly well regarded; I picked it up at my local hifi shop a few years back, it'll do.

Yes that's true...My bad, I missed the new comments on the AT later in the thread. More cleaning process will eliminate a lot of the noise in any event.
Reply
post #15 of 34
4/30/09 at 8:48pm

Re: New stylus and three new LPs on the way.

Lee Scoggins: totally irrelevant to the thread, but I figgered you'd know. What's the best current version of Astral Weeks I can buy these days? My original LP sounds worn with my newish TT/cart, which is much "better" than my old one. Word is the CD isn't great. I ordered the newest Rhino LP on spec as I vaguely recall reading it was fairly well done and decently manufactured (as compared to most reissues I've bought...). Did I do good or should I keep on looking? Though I will be able to judge for myself soon enough... I am kinda picky so used original vinyl is too much of a crapshoot for me. Thanks.
Reply
post #16 of 34
5/3/09 at 9:27pm

Re: New stylus and three new LPs on the way.

*sigh*
I still have all the records I bought during the late 70's until sometime in the early 90's.
not many about 500 maybe.

A couple of years ago I bought a turntable to listen to the records and
sadly they all sounded terrible, static and pops, just awful.

I returned the table and put all my records back in the closet.

Reply
post #17 of 34
5/4/09 at 7:16am

Re: New stylus and three new LPs on the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigF
Lee Scoggins: totally irrelevant to the thread, but I figgered you'd know. What's the best current version of Astral Weeks I can buy these days? My original LP sounds worn with my newish TT/cart, which is much "better" than my old one. Word is the CD isn't great. I ordered the newest Rhino LP on spec as I vaguely recall reading it was fairly well done and decently manufactured (as compared to most reissues I've bought...). Did I do good or should I keep on looking? Though I will be able to judge for myself soon enough... I am kinda picky so used original vinyl is too much of a crapshoot for me. Thanks.

I like the new Warner's reissue although it is just a shade soft in the highs. Overall though Kevin Gray did a nice job on this mastering.

The best remain the original green label Warners but finding one mint is all but impossible in my experience. I have a clean Side 1 with a small scratch on Side 2 affecting one song. Sounds terrific other than the scratch.
Reply
post #18 of 34
5/6/09 at 10:16am
Thread Starter 

Re: New stylus and three new LPs on the way.

Just talked to my local hifi guy about replacing the stylus in my AT (he sold me the sylus originally and doesn't think it needs it).

So, Lee, how do you like the Rega P1... He's got them for a little under $400, I'm going to give it a listen I think.
Reply
post #19 of 34
5/6/09 at 1:26pm

Re: New stylus and three new LPs on the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip Hamm
Just talked to my local hifi guy about replacing the stylus in my AT (he sold me the sylus originally and doesn't think it needs it).

So, Lee, how do you like the Rega P1... He's got them for a little under $400, I'm going to give it a listen I think.

I like them a lot - I spent a couple of hours listening to one at our local Rega dealer Audio Alternative. Great value for the money. They have also refined the Rega tables over and over. Good brand.
Reply
post #20 of 34
5/7/09 at 5:34am
Thread Starter 

Re: New stylus and three new LPs on the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Scoggins
I like them a lot - I spent a couple of hours listening to one at our local Rega dealer Audio Alternative. Great value for the money. They have also refined the Rega tables over and over. Good brand.
So here's my experience from yesterday.

My "No Line On The Horizon" record has really bad sibilance distortion on some songs when played back on my Denon DP-7f. Now, for reference, my DP-7f was about $300 without cart in 1994/5 when I bought it, so my LP rig should be respectable. Not great, but not crap either.

So I brought the record to the local hifi shop where I got the AT311EP some years ago. The shop is Gifted Listener in Centreville, VA - very highly recommended to any HTF members in the DC area - well worth the trip. I know at least one other member here is a regular with them.

Anyway, I talked to the proprieter about my problem with the record. I was expecting to find out one of two things: (1) My tt / cart is crap and needs to be replaced, or (2) The record is defective. The first stop was a table in his big room, just to find if the record is the problem. I had one song where there is the most annoying sibilance distortion, first song on side 2 "Moment of Surrender".

Put the record on - it sounded perfect, absolutely goregeous.

I didin't ask how much that table cost. So the next stop was the Rega P1. We put that table on the floor and pulled out the P1. The P1 sounded almost exactly like my Denon at home, sibilance distortion out the yin yang. We tried another Rega - the P5. Same problem, less distinct. Went back to a third table, a cheaper version of the first one we tried, it was almost as clean as the first one.

So the moral of the story? The reason I embraced CD in the 80s. In order to get really clean sound on vinyl you need to spend a fortune. The table that sounded best is a Linn that goes for over $6K.

Gifted Listener is going to get some P-Mount carts in, the "Grado Green" cart. Would this be a substantial upgrade from my AT 311EP? After what I heard I'm not sure that it's going to help. I do not have the budget to buy the turntable I want, but I'd be willing to drop $90 on a cart if it meant a substantial upgrade for me. The proprieter of GL said he'd be happy to sell me a grado green, but is conderned that I'm spending $90 on something that won't really help.

One more thing I'm going to do is mount a wall shelf above my stereo stand for the table. In my experience getting a turntable off the floor and onto a wall mounted shelf is a worthwile upgrade.

In any case, he is going to order a few anyway because he likes to have at least one P-mount cart in stock. Probably a wise thing.

Another thing I learned last night - the very modest speakers (mirage 290is bookshelves and an optimus sub) and receiver (old Pioneer 606S home theater reciever) I have in my office where I listen to most music sound very, very nice to my ear; even compared to very high end gear my little system holds up surprisingly well.
Reply
post #21 of 34
5/7/09 at 6:59am

Re: New stylus and three new LPs on the way.

I don't have any experience with a Grado Green but I have heard the more expensive Grados like the Platinum and Sonata and Reference. I use the Sonata. There are a lot of good carts in the $100-150 range but it depends on how much gain your phono stage has. Can you handle a low output cartridge? Then something like a Denon DL-103 may make sense.
Reply
post #22 of 34
5/7/09 at 7:04am

Re: New stylus and three new LPs on the way.

Suggestion: Ortofon 2M Red

Ortofon 2M Red Phono Cartridge: The 2M Red and 2M Blue both have the same engine with slit pole pins.
Reply
post #23 of 34
5/7/09 at 3:30pm

Re: New stylus and three new LPs on the way.

Phil,

Great job articulating your rational for going back to vinyl.

Every time there is a CD vs. Vinyl thread the same old voices dismiss vinyl due to its well know technical shortcomings, but they fail to recognize or even acknowledge that for many recordings, CD fails to fulfill its potential due to crappy mastering, ergo the best sounding versions of many recordings are vinyl.

It is actually quite sad the some folks are missing out on some great music in its highest fidelity form, but oh well, more used records for us!

In all honesty, if every rock CD sounded as good as Steve Hoffman's "Bad Co.", there would likely have not been as much of a vinyl renaissance. I know I would have been less likely to dive back in a few years ago.

Anyway, I wanted to chime in on your cartridge search and offer up the AT 440mla. Not sure where you are price wise, but this cart is a legendary tracker. Once properly mounted, you will never hear the words "inner groove distortion" again, unless it is on a badly damaged LP.

I run one on my Rega P2, and it is a really solid combo.

And do not underestimate the importance of properly aligning the cart in the head shell. There are lots of free alignment protractors on line.. all it takes is some time and patience.

Brian
Reply
post #24 of 34
5/7/09 at 3:34pm

Re: New stylus and three new LPs on the way.

Very true Brian. Also I have found tracking force and azimuth are important. VTA is also very important.
Reply
post #25 of 34
5/7/09 at 3:46pm

Re: New stylus and three new LPs on the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyD
*sigh*
I still have all the records I bought during the late 70's until sometime in the early 90's.
not many about 500 maybe.

A couple of years ago I bought a turntable to listen to the records and
sadly they all sounded terrible, static and pops, just awful.

I returned the table and put all my records back in the closet.

Come in Tony... throw us a bone.

I bet a few of us would gladly take that awful vinyl off your hands, so long as you have not used your records for coasters or spare tires. ;-)

Brian
Reply
post #26 of 34
5/10/09 at 7:23pm

Re: New stylus and three new LPs on the way.

I was hoping RHINO would put out the CD here

Japan has remastered it Warner WPCR 75419
Van Morrison / Astral Weeks

itll do until Gen 1 tapes are found

My dad landed the privilege of remodeling his kitchen back in 1973
His place was magical-out towards the coast in the country
I remember wandering into the basement seeing the boxes of master tapes stacked in piles
He was on tour-his wife was there-(maybe the girl on the front of TUPELO HONEY?)nice old craftsman house -it was a magic place in the fog
Reply
post #27 of 34
5/18/09 at 6:20am
Thread Starter 

Re: New stylus and three new LPs on the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian L
And do not underestimate the importance of properly aligning the cart in the head shell. There are lots of free alignment protractors on line.. all it takes is some time and patience.
My table is T4P so all I have to do is snap the cart in and it's instantly perfect. Also, it's easy to keep a spare cart for the occasional beat up old record.
Reply
post #28 of 34
5/21/09 at 5:04pm
Thread Starter 

Re: New stylus and three new LPs on the way.

Well, I ended up getting the Grado Green P-Mount for my old Denon table. It sounds a little better than the old Audio Technica I think, I'm sure as I get used to it I will like it better. Less sibiliance distortion. My ear says it's quieter the meters say it's just as loud. I'm a little concerned about inner grove distortion on this one though. The one big surprise is that surface noise is substantially lower, I mean the difference is dramatic to say the least!!!!! For reference I'm using the level meters I see when doing needle drops in soundforge. The difference in record noise is unbelievable.
Reply
post #29 of 34
5/21/09 at 7:54pm

Re: New stylus and three new LPs on the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip Hamm
Well, I ended up getting the Grado Green P-Mount for my old Denon table. It sounds a little better than the old Audio Technica I think, I'm sure as I get used to it I will like it better. Less sibiliance distortion. My ear says it's quieter the meters say it's just as loud. I'm a little concerned about inner grove distortion on this one though. The one big surprise is that surface noise is substantially lower, I mean the difference is dramatic to say the least!!!!! For reference I'm using the level meters I see when doing needle drops in soundforge. The difference in record noise is unbelievable.

Philip,

Congratulations! Remember it will sound even better as it breaks in.
Reply
post #30 of 34
5/22/09 at 6:02pm
Thread Starter 

Re: New stylus and three new LPs on the way.

After further review... The grado doesn't like my turntable at all. Lots of inner groove distortion. Guess I'll keep it in a droor for something else. I recorded the same song at 96/24 with the Grado and my AT311EP, normalized volumes, and the comparison was not kind for the grado. Also - the AT311P is real nice sounding cart on my system!
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Music
Home Theater Forum › Home Theater Forum › Entertainment › Music › New stylus and three new LPs on the way.