My old Dharman is down, any advice

Well, I just bought a new receiver - Onkyo 876. I have been messing around with the Audyssey setup, and my sub clipped severly on a scene early on in Hellboy 2. Instead of just leaving it alone, I tried using different audio settings and sound modes to try and eliminate it and it continued to do it. It's damaged now, of course, it is somewhere around 10 yrs old, so it may have just worn out. Now it crackles and rattles at all different levels of bass. It's been a really good sub, and I'd like to just repair it if possible. I've never messed with spearker internals, besides installing new speakers in my vehicles, but I am handy and know my way around a soldering gun. Could it be possible to repair the driver, or replace it, or is it time to just replace the whole thing? I can't really afford to drop another grand on more audio gear right now, or else it would be an obvious time to upgrade. I don't know how much of a chance there is for me to replace the driver and find out there is really something wrong with the amp or something. Any input or suggestions from someone that knows more about building or repairing speakers would be greatly appreciated.

Re: My old Dharman is down, any advice

You know your subs.

The first time it actually did this was on Miracle at St. Anna, and at what seemed like a very odd point. If you've seen the movie, it was the barn shootout where the big guy first found the boy. The first guys shots sounded normal, then when the big guy shoots, the sub just gave three very loud clicks, but it was like it gave the very loud clicks but all other bass sound was absent. I wouldn't really call it a metalic clank. It didn't sound bad like it did the second time on Hellboy 2, just very odd. With Hellboy 2, it was more like several loud clanks in a row. Now, it makes a crackling sound fairly constantly. It's like it plays mid bass OK, but it sounds like crinkling celophane at times during upper and lower bass. I took the grill off last night when this started, and there were also times with the cone was just jumping all over the place but not much sound coming out, and it didn't seem to be at times when there should be any sub-sonic base (if that makes sense) After this started, I didn't mess with it a whole lot and thought I'd get some advice before I messed around and did more damage. All of this happened with the receiver set at a max of -25, so it's not like I was playing anywhere near reference level. When I was trying to diagnose the issue and trying different sound processing to see if one of them was adding bass boost and causing the clipping, it was down around -30 or -35 and still got the clipping.

When I started setting things up on the new receiver, I changed a lot of settings. I moved the LPF up to max to let the receiver set that without interference. I also moved the volume up a little to see where Audyssey would set trim. It was still below or at mid. I also moved the variable phase all the way to one side since the receiver will also let you know if it's out of phase. I don't know if that could have thrown the old amp off after being set the same for several years.

Oh, at the moment, I probably have just a couple hundred to get the sub fixed, more and it will have to wait.

Re: My old Dharman is down, any advice

Thanks a million man. That's exactly what I was looking for. I didn't even know Adire had gone down until I started looking last night. Then I did a search on Shiva and didn't find much. I was worried I coudn't get one any longer. I sent an e-mail to one of the companies listed on the old Adire site as able to service their subs, but haven't heard back yet. I will definitely look into the Shiva-X. Should I replace any of the baffle material or anything else while I'm at it?

Yes, on all my previous setups I used tones from VE or Avia (or something like that) to set the level and even went through all of the bass test tones with my SPL to set the notch filter on my AVR507. What do you mean by running it too low? (just to safeguard the replacement once it's in) Could it be that it was just due for replacement after 8 yrs? (My wife reminded me exactly when we got it after I told her it had most likely bit the dust)

Re: My old Dharman is down, any advice

I was surprised to see that they went back to a paper cone. Mine looks like a woven material. Guess it shouldn't matter much. I wondered about that too, both of the movies I had issues with were Blu-rays on the HD format.

I'm going to give them a call in the next hour or so and see about ordering the new driver.

Re: My old Dharman is down, any advice

I called Kevin, very nice guy. He said this driver is nowhere close to a drop in, nothing like the Shiva. He told me what Partexpress driver to order and said it's basically a copy. It's a Dayton DVC 310. Even looked up the part number and cost for me. Now, my question is, if this is basically the same sub as what I had, will I be back in the same boat with the sub bottoming out? I need to look at the specs when I get home and see if the newer one has the same excursion and everything. One review on the sub said it constantly bottomed out, while others said it was a great sub.

Re: My old Dharman is down, any advice

Is there any reason you would not go with the AE speaker? Would there be any issues using it with the Dharman amp? Remember, the Shiva was wired to give a 4 ohm load and the AE can only be 8 ohm or 2 ohm, and I don't think the amp can handle 2 ohm. Have you used any of these before to have an idea about sound quality?

Thanks again for all your help.

Re: My old Dharman is down, any advice

I just have one more, this is what CSS replied back to my inquiry. They said they actually contacted Dan Wiggins and he suggested the SD-12 on this page. Can you see what numbers you come up with for it? Creative Sound Solutions - Loudspeakers, Parts and DIY Speaker Kits

Thanks again.

Re: My old Dharman is down, any advice

Wasn't Dan the owner of Adire, or somehow involved anyway?

I don't know anytyhing about interpreting the specs. The info on CSS about the driver said something about tuning to 25hz and mainly talked about mobile applications. Do you remember where the modeling showed the peak output on the SD-12. Which would you choose between it and the AE driver?

I'll quit bugging you after this. If you're ever in Alabama, I definitely owe you a beer!

Re: My old Dharman is down, any advice

Robert,
I ordered the CSS last week, still hasn't made it, but I'm trying to get things ready to make a quick swap once it does make it. Maybe I just don't know how to read the specs provided, but I can't make out a few things from the info on CSS's website. It says it has a 2 layer voice coil. Does that mean it is dual voice coil, or is it considered a single? I also don't see anything on the impedance. Just trying to figure out if I need to consider any wiring configuration on the actual sub before dropping it in. I pulled the Shiva out tonight just to make sure there weren't any internal braces I needed to consider when installing the new driver, but it's pretty much an open box with small side braces and a lot of fill.

Re: My old Dharman is down, any advice

Definitely interested. I did notice that on the physical specs page after I posted and figured that must be the impedance since it had ohm beside it on that page.

That's exactly why I was asking. I knew I needed 4 ohm or up, but preferably 4 ohm to get the most out of the amp. If it's either a single 4 ohm, or some other dual configuration already wired to 4 ohm, then it should be good to go, as long as it fits in the recess for the Shiva. I'm going to measure the spacing on the Shiva's mounting holes when I get home this evening.

Re: My old Dharman is down, any advice

Well, got the SD12 in last night. Looked it over, indeed only one set of leads. Cut the Shiva off, stripped the wires and screwed them into the very nice binding posts on the SD12. This thing is a monster. Much heavier than the Shiva. Unhooked everything and layed the box on it's back since the SD12 is so much heavier than the Shiva. No way to hold it up by the rim and screw it in. Put everything back together and plug it back in. Turn it on and it sounds exactly like the Shiva did before I took it out. Making the same popping/crackling sounds. I guess the driver wasn't blown after all. Now I've got to do a lot more experimenting to try and figure this out. I'm starting to wonder if all of the Audyssey EQ-ing is doing something very strange to my sub. It got worse after I turned the gain down on the sub and re-ran Audyssey. I thought I was just making the driver I thought was blown worse by playing around with it more. I guess I'll try disabling Audyssey when I get home and see what that does. I just can't imagine that this would cause the type of sounds I am hearing. The strange thing is, dish sounds fine, but DVD and X360 both have the same problems. Probably just because there isn't much on the .1 channel coming from TV programs. I thought this was going to be an easy fix.

Re: My old Dharman is down, any advice

I disabled the Audyssey Dynamic EQ and it immediately got rid of most of the noise I was hearing. I still have some of the same issues in the scene where I first noticed the problem. I even completely disabled the Audyssey EQ XT, but it's still there. At least I'm back where I started, or at least with an upgraded driver I now don't seem to need, but it is definitely a stockier sub. Now I need some time to play around with it and see if I can get rid of the continuing issue. I just don't understand why the dynamic EQ would cause this problem, and it bothers me that I won't be able to use this feature, but I'll work on it some more and see where I get, it's just been a busy weekend and haven't been able to touch it since last night.

Re: My old Dharman is down, any advice

No, don't take that wrong. That wasn't directed to you at all, it was my mistake. I appreciate all your help. I was listening to it myself and it really made it sound like the sub was blown. It got worse as I played with it, and I interpreted that incorrectly as indicating that I was making the blown driver worse by continuing to play the scenes it was having problems with. I should have experimented more before just deciding it was the driver itself. You helped me find a good driver to replace it and verified that the one suggested would work. It's definitely a better built sub. You helped me rule that out as the issue. Like you said, it still could be an issue with the amp. I just need some more time to play around with it. It still seems fine when watching my Dish DVR. I even turned the dynamic EQ and dynamic volume control back on while watching Discovery with my son yesterday afternoon and watched a couple of things off of the DVR last night and had no issues at all. We weren't watching action movies, but we watched CSI with some heavy bass music and shootouts.

Re: My old Dharman is down, any advice

Well, I finally took some time and tried a couple of things tonight. I completely forgot that my mains have an LFE input. I know they have their own amp for the small dual bass drivers, but I had forgotten that they had a line level input. So, I turned off the Dharman and moved the Sub cable to one of the mains. Then I recalibrated my receiver using Audyssey. I didn't get any of the noise I was hearing from the Dharman. I even turned on the Dynamic EQ that made the Dharman almost constantly distort and it didn't have any trouble. Only time it had problems was with was the deepest bass, but getting up close to the speaker, I'm pretty sure it was just the port chuffing. I even moved the cable back over to the Dharman and turned the gain down some and dialed back the sub trim in the receiver and it was just crackle, crackle, thump. So, the latest experiment leads me to think it is the amp on the Dharman. If it was distortion from the receiver, or a problem with the sub cable, I would think it would have been evident with the other speaker. I even tried moving the power cord on the Dharman to a different outlet with nothing else plugged in. Is there anything else you think I should try?

I found someone selling a brand new O audio 500 watt BASH amp for a decent price. Would that be a suitable amp to replace the existing one? I've done some looking and I see where most people recommend that amp for sealed subs since it has the boost associated with the LPF, but since this box is tuned to 22 hz, I don't think the associated boost at the 20 hz setting would be too much of a problem. I don't know about the big boost it gives at the 16 hz setting. If that amp would be good, then the issue is whether or not it is a similar size to the current amp, since it is used to seal the back of the box on the Dharman.

Re: My old Dharman is down, any advice

Well, haven't heard back from the guy with the O Audio, so I'm on to buying one out-right. PE has their 300 BASH on sale right now for $125 free shipping, so, is there any reason not to go with that amp. I understand the O Audio has some more options, but for another $50, is it really worth it? I thought the Darman was plenty loud before for my listening style, and I don't think I ever had the gain at even half before. Is there any reason to go with a 500w over just a 300? The original amp was just a 280w according to the Dharman specs. Is there anything I'm missing?

If I go with the PE, do I need to modify it before I install it, or should I install it first and do some testing with it? I couldn't tell from the PE BASH 300 specs where the LPF is set out of the box or if it had any boost without changing out resistors. The Dharman specs say the amp had a custom EQ already, but I can't find anything that says what it was. The specs you gave me on the subs were without any boost or cut at all, weren't they? Modeling the SD 12, is there anything I should try to compensate for?

Re: My old Dharman is down, any advice

I got the BASH from PE and finally had a few minutes last night. When I pulled the Shiva out of the original box, I turned the amp down and left it connected and played it just to see if I could see anything mechanical on the sub indicating what the issue was. I couldn't see anything, but it was still making the same distortion noise. I didn't have time last night to pull the amp out of the Dharman, but I hooked up the BASH amp and the old Shiva just to see what would happen. I used Hellboy II again, where I had first noticed all of the issues, and even turned the dynamic EQ back on (which made the distortion almost constant before). I tried to keep the volume at a very moderate level, but played around with it a little. The distortion was completely gone. Only once did it make any out of the ordinary noise, but even with the volume down the sub was making huge excursions and I'm pretty sure it barely bottomed out or reached it's limit anyway (probably because it was in open air and had absolutely no resistance), it was still nothing like the sound it was making before. So, I think replacing the amp will solve the problem. Now I just need to pull the old one out and see if the new one fits. I'm pretty sure it won't fit horizontally, but I may be able to mount it sideways and not have to fill any holes. If not, then I've got more work to do. Sounds like a good weekend project. Might even be a good chance to use that hole saw I got for a great price and have hardly touched since.