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MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!! - Page 2

post #31 of 68
4/3/09 at 3:09pm

Re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!

Don't get me wrong - I don't condone this. But man, when I think about how picky we're becoming these days. Here we are with beautiful Blu-rays, these films look amazing, and is it really THAT big a deal when you think of it? I recall dealing with a cruddy pan and scam VHS of this once upon a time...
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post #32 of 68
4/3/09 at 8:44pm

Re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!

For me, it is a belief -- which may be terrible mistaken, but it is how I feel -- that these discs, sold in the thousands to consumers, may someday be all that is left of our film history. So if they mess these up, they're ruining the future's opportunity to see the films properly.

This may be unrealistic, because realistically, California might not fall into the ocean taking all the celluloid with it, or the server farms where these films are kept might stay online for centuries.

But it feels like an act of betray to the future, to make things difficult.

Why not make sure there's a few thousand perfect copies of the film out there, so that the future has a good shot at having a perfect copy of the film?

I suppose in a few thousand years they'll be able to fix the distortion with no loss of quality. But still... Lowry or whatever they're called does shoddy work.
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post #33 of 68
4/3/09 at 9:06pm

Re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will_B
For me, it is a belief -- which may be terrible mistaken, but it is how I feel -- that these discs, sold in the thousands to consumers, may someday be all that is left of our film history. So if they mess these up, they're ruining the future's opportunity to see the films properly.

This may be unrealistic, because realistically, California might not fall into the ocean taking all the celluloid with it, or the server farms where these films are kept might stay online for centuries.

But it feels like an act of betray to the future, to make things difficult.

Why not make sure there's a few thousand perfect copies of the film out there, so that the future has a good shot at having a perfect copy of the film?

I suppose in a few thousand years they'll be able to fix the distortion with no loss of quality. But still... Lowry or whatever they're called does shoddy work.
The main mistake of this logic is believing that a home video format will be the means of preserving the film. It's a byproduct, whether HD or not.
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post #34 of 68
4/3/09 at 9:29pm

Re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!

Yes, it is a byproduct, but, consider the chances of archeologists finding several movies on disc when those discs are nicely distributed around the entire planet (or at least, whatever countries Bond films are popular in) versus finding a print buried in California.

There's a greater chance of survival if the materials are scattered.

Not that it will be our problem.
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post #35 of 68
4/3/09 at 9:52pm

Re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Dalek
Overscan refers to do a degree of cropping on all four sides of the image done by old tube tvs. It does not apply to HD.


There are many HDTVs that overscan. It may in fact be more models out there that over scan than don't.

Doug
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post #36 of 68
4/4/09 at 9:26am

Re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!

Perhaps it would have been more accurate to say that it does not apply to "pixel based" displays. Although, these sets can do their own overscanning if you want them to.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
There are many HDTVs that overscan. It may in fact be more models out there that over scan than don't.

Doug
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post #37 of 68
4/4/09 at 8:11pm

Re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Karlosi
Don't get me wrong - I don't condone this. But man, when I think about how picky we're becoming these days. Here we are with beautiful Blu-rays, these films look amazing, and is it really THAT big a deal when you think of it? I recall dealing with a cruddy pan and scam VHS of this once upon a time...

Agreed.
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post #38 of 68
4/4/09 at 10:24pm

Re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!

This film looks and sounds absolutely stellar. For that reason I can't complain about the windowboxing.
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post #39 of 68
4/5/09 at 5:17am

Re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!

Yeah - and I mean, it's just the credits, folks!
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post #40 of 68
4/5/09 at 9:25am

Re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Karlosi
Yeah - and I mean, it's just the credits, folks!
"Just the credits" might fly with most movies, but in Bond movies they're more or less a short film of their own.
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post #41 of 68
4/5/09 at 12:15pm

Re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!

Dr.No was on British television today and the title sequence was certainly windowboxed in this showing.
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post #42 of 68
4/5/09 at 1:52pm

Re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!

It has always been my understanding that in any video transfer from film there is by necessity some cropping of the image to prevent the very edges of the frame from appearing. It can vary depending on the circumstances from film to film. In the case of movie titles, and to prevent undue cropping, the titles are zoomed-out slightly to present the maximum recorded image. I have seen this on literally dozens if not hundreds of movies on DVD from all of the Studios and I have always taken it to be a sign of them taking more care than less care.
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post #43 of 68
4/6/09 at 2:34am

Re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!

This is not the case of the squeeze being applied in the release prints. The previous (special edition) DVD issues had unsqueezed titles, and the unsqueezed textless versions are available on the UE DVDs and Blu-Rays.

For those who dispute the distortion is there, I would recommend them viewing Moonraker title sequence. At one point there is a girls head that rotates through 360 degrees. The head grows fat then thin as it rotates around - clear evidence of one-dimensional squeeze being applied

The treatment is totally inconsistent as well. Thunderball, Moonraker and TWINE have all been squeezed while For Your Eyes Only and Die Another Day were presented correctly

It seems as if a lot of the problems with the UE DVDs (such as the incorrect color timing on Thunderball and Live and Let Die and the shoddy sound effects in some of the re-mixes) have been corrected, but MGM still sees fit to keep these mutilated title sequences
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post #44 of 68
4/6/09 at 10:21am

Re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Henry
Dr.No was on British television today and the title sequence was certainly windowboxed in this showing.

I just watched the Blu-Ray Dr. No last night and the whole film is windowboxed, or at least not as wide as the menus, warnings and 16X9 special features. My JVC DLA-HD350 projects onto a 4X3 screen, so I just zoomed the lens a bit so the image filled the screen edge-to-edge, but then the menus spilled over a bit. There was no difference in image width between the credit sequence and the body of the film.
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post #45 of 68
4/6/09 at 11:19am

Re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Penna
I just watched the Blu-Ray Dr. No last night and the whole film is windowboxed, or at least not as wide as the menus, warnings and 16X9 special features. My JVC DLA-HD350 projects onto a 4X3 screen, so I just zoomed the lens a bit so the image filled the screen edge-to-edge, but then the menus spilled over a bit. There was no difference in image width between the credit sequence and the body of the film.
Dr. No is at 1.66:1, IIRC, so windowboxing would be appropriate.
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post #46 of 68
4/6/09 at 11:43am

Re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulDA
Dr. No is at 1.66:1, IIRC, so windowboxing would be appropriate.

You know... you're right!
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post #47 of 68
4/6/09 at 2:51pm

Re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATimson
"Just the credits" might fly with most movies, but in Bond movies they're more or less a short film of their own.

A valid point.
As I say, I don't condone the windowboxing and would prefer it wasn't so. But there are just so many other things to worry about regarding DVD and BD...
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post #48 of 68
4/8/09 at 10:09pm

Re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Karlosi
A valid point.
As I say, I don't condone the windowboxing and would prefer it wasn't so. But there are just so many other things to worry about regarding DVD and BD...

Agree completely.

Surely the only issue here is the distorted image, not the windowboxing, which is an entirely valid presentation tool.

People clamouring for credits sequences to completely fill their screens should consider what message is sent to people who have overscanned sets, and who see letters falling off the edges of their screen.
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post #49 of 68
4/9/09 at 5:19am

Re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulianK
People clamouring for credits sequences to completely fill their screens should consider what message is sent to people who have overscanned sets, and who see letters falling off the edges of their screen.
The actual message is that their TV is broken. Unfortunately the received message will be that their player or MGM/Fox's discs are broken.
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post #50 of 68
4/9/09 at 6:15am

Re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulianK
People clamouring for credits sequences to completely fill their screens should consider what message is sent to people who have overscanned sets, and who see letters falling off the edges of their screen.

That their television is unable to present the entire image that is actually encoded on the disc? Since it's perfectly true, what's wrong with that "message"?
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post #51 of 68
4/9/09 at 4:53pm

Re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cafink
Since it's perfectly true, what's wrong with that "message"?

Most people don't know what overscanning is, and they will assume that the transfer has been shoddily done.

What do you think they're less likely to notice - or find objectionable - slight black bars at the sides of the image (which shouldn't even be noticeable under ideal viewing conditions), or finding that the first and last letters of the movie's title has disappeared off-screen?
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post #52 of 68
4/9/09 at 10:45pm

Re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!

I don't care what anyone assumes about the way a particular image displays on his particular display. I do care--very much--about the way that image is actually encoded onto a DVD or Blu-ray disc.

When said image is encoded in such a way that it does not utilize the full resolution available to it, in order to appease a viewer whose own display is the culprit behind the framing problems--well, I think that's a shame. Not the worst problem affecting Blu-rays today (or even close to it, really), but a shame nonetheless.
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post #53 of 68
4/12/09 at 10:38am

Re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cafink
I don't care what anyone assumes about the way a particular image displays on his particular display. I do care--very much--about the way that image is actually encoded onto a DVD or Blu-ray disc.

When said image is encoded in such a way that it does not utilize the full resolution available to it, in order to appease a viewer whose own display is the culprit behind the framing problems--well, I think that's a shame. Not the worst problem affecting Blu-rays today (or even close to it, really), but a shame nonetheless.

Exactly. If encoding these properly meant that letters were going to be permanently chopped off the frame then that would be a serious issue. But they wouldn't be. They'd be there. The fact that some TVs are set to miss them, well that's the fault of those sets or the owners.

At the end of the day, these movies are supposed to reflect what was shown in cinemas. And, apparently, these title sequences don't.
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post #54 of 68
4/12/09 at 2:08pm

Re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!

I'm putting together a review of the 3rd Volume of the Blu-ray Bonds.

I see what you're talking about as far as the windowboxing of the credits, although I also noted that the textless versions of the opening title sequences are in the proper ratios. So for posterity, the original versions are present, without the text, but in a fashion that to my mind, preserves the artistry of the people who assembled them.

I also note that the end titles are similarly windowboxed, but not always with complete success. On Moonraker, the end titles still chop off the last letters of some names, including one assistant art director. And as the credits go up the screen, they slide a little bit over to the right so that the last letters start to go off the edge of the visible screen...
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post #55 of 68
4/12/09 at 5:00pm

Re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamilton72
Exactly. If encoding these properly meant that letters were going to be permanently chopped off the frame then that would be a serious issue. But they wouldn't be. They'd be there. The fact that some TVs are set to miss them, well that's the fault of those sets or the owners.

It's a legacy problem that affects hundreds of thousands of people. Nowadays it's usual for people making credits sequences to stay well within the 'graphics safe' area of the screen, to prevent this very problem.

Making accommodation for the tens of thousands of people with this problem, by sacrificing perhaps 10% of screen resolution for those people lucky enough not to be affected by it seems to me - and to the industry in general, apparently - a reasonable price for those people to pay. The needs of the many, and all that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamilton72
At the end of the day, these movies are supposed to reflect what was shown in cinemas. And, apparently, these title sequences don't.

The distortion is a separate issue, which may not even be connected to the windowboxing.

Plus, if you want to get pedantic, you'll find that the projected image in most cinemas falls outside the screen, just like an overscanned TV set.
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post #56 of 68
4/12/09 at 10:43pm

Re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!

I'm still amazed anyone is reading the credits. There are naked women flying around the screen, folks!
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post #57 of 68
4/14/09 at 9:41pm

Re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!

Could there be a legal reason for the window boxing ? Could be that by contract the names of actors and techs must be complete and not cut off. Since more people have sets where over scanning can cause names to be cut off, the studio is making sure it is in compliance by window boxing the titles.
In days gone by TV stations used to stretch the titles to fill the screen on widescreen movies that were otherwise pan and scan so that the titles were not cut off.
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post #58 of 68
4/15/09 at 4:20am

Re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
There are many HDTVs that overscan. It may in fact be more models out there that over scan than don't.

Yes, I guess it still depends on the tv-set. My Sony Bravia has "0% overscan"-option, but you can still choose some overscan if you want (for some odd reason). Not sure now, but I guess this "0% overscan" applies only to the HDMI-inputs (in my TV-set).

edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_Warren
2: The majority of those will use some form of digital zoom to make the 2:35 framing fill their 16:9 HDTV.

I know several people who complain if the material does not fill their beloved 16:9 HDTV some even zoom 4:3 material and are happy with it!!! Some zoom 2:35 even if it cuts off vital PQ info I have tried to educate them but they are happy to lose PQ to have a full screen image which is inferior as the digital zoom obviously removes PQ detail.

I have read similar reports and it truly amazes me. Some people want to use "zoom" to get 2.35:1/2.40:1-aspect ratio to 16:9** (or "stretch" the 4:3-material to 16:9), just because they "don´t like black bars"? Jeez..
It should be obvious for everyone by now (it´s 2009 after all), that we have different aspect ratios and HDTV is "only" 1.78:1. "Casablanca" will be always 4:3 (1.33:1), "The Lord of the Rings"-trilogy will be always 2.35:1 and "Band of Brothers" will be always 1.78.1. So live with it, dammit.


**In this case 16:9 = 1.78:1.
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post #59 of 68
4/15/09 at 4:42am

Re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jari K

I have read similar reports and it truly amazes me. Some people want to use "zoom" to get 2.35:1/2.40:1-aspect ratio to 16:9** (or "stretch" the 4:3-material to 16:9), just because they "don´t like black bars"? Jeez..
It should be obvious for everyone by now (it´s 2009 after all), that we have different aspect ratios and HDTV is "only" 1.78:1. "Casablanca" will be always 4:3 (1.33:1), "The Lord of the Rings"-trilogy will be always 2.35:1 and "Band of Brothers" will be always 1.78.1. So live with it, dammit.


**In this case 16:9 = 1.78:1.
Unfortunately, content providers in the U.S. are still catering to this mentality, On the networks, I've seen The Lord of The Rings shown at 1.78:1 on TNT-HD, Band of Brothers stretched and cropped into a horrible mess on History-HD, Hogan's Heroes cropped to 1.78:1 on Universal-HD, and just about every movie shown on AMC-HD stretched and/or cropped into a horrible mess.

Watching films on U.S. high definition networks is almost useless.
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post #60 of 68
4/15/09 at 4:47am

Re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jari K
My Sony Bravia has "0% overscan"-option, but you can still choose some overscan if you want (for some odd reason). Not sure now, but I guess this "0% overscan" applies only to the HDMI-inputs (in my TV-set).
If it applied to over-the-air content as well, I could understand why someone might want some overscan--otherwise you'll be seeing the closed captioning data at the top of your screen. (You learn to ignore it after a while, I found, as my TV has little enough overscan that it's displayed. )
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